So you think narcissists knows they are behaving narcissistic

[Nicky2021]

Just sat thinking.
Do you think they know exactly what they are doing and saying?
Or do you think sometimes they actually believe that how they are acting is acceptable and normal?
In my experience I genuinely believe he thinks he is behaving normally and hasn’t done anything wrong and when he tells me that I infact did these things not him, I think he genuinely believes himself.
What are your thoughts?

I think there are malignant narcissists (love to hurt people) and vulnerable narcissists who respond to a perceived slight massively over the top. A bit like s school bully who gets up in your face like "what did you just say!". They make you eat your words rather than consider what they might mean. I always knew my ex was prone to humiliated fury but I read it as poor him so hurt and I must be broken because he's so kind to everyone else. I left because he was narcissistic rage was terrifying and I deeply regret not telling him how much I hated him but didn't have the energy to listen to how I didn't feel like that, that I was over reacting, just wanted an argument etc etc. He still said being single was no different and he was glad he didn't have to put up with shit anymore so I was left with even less self esteem then before. They feed off your energy until you have nothing left then move on to the next one.

My DH has not been diagnosed with narcissism but I definitely see some traits. I can tell you for sure that he does not realize that he is being an ass. It took me many years to realize that. I would be so upset for something he said to me or someone else and he would be like, "what, what did I say". It is very difficult to deal with a person like that, b/c in order for someone to change they first have to admit, understand, that they did something wrong and it almost never happened with my DH.
When I would be telling him things that bother me he would be looking at me but would say nothing clearly not getting it. He would never say he was sorry, but he would sometimes say that he is willing to try to change, but would do nothing. It is because he does not know what it is that he is doing wrong. And of course, total lack of empathy. Only feels for himself, that is it.

Very few people with NPD are formally diagnosed as they dont think they have a problem.

This is very true. My ex-wife's arrogance got her diagnosed inadvertently. She had insisted on marriage and individual counselling with a covert belief that she would be able to use marriage and individual counselling as a weapon to get me declared as a threat to her and my children. That all happened during a year long prelude to my finally filing for divorce after a 20 year relationship, and it wasn't until the divorce proceedings started that I became aware of her diagnosis.

@gluteustothemaximus

I can't waste any time feeling sorry for manipulative coercive essentially abusive individuals who make people's lives a misery.

This.

Their sob stories and victim mentality is what drew me towards them and they know this, so they exploit your empathy in order to control you.

They made my life a living hell and I thought I was losing my mind when they behaved inconsistently every time I saw them. One minute they are happy, the next I'm a bitch for saying no, the next they're trying to make up with me when I don't chase them quick enough when they give me the silent treatment.

I wish I had actually fallen down the stairs when they pushed me then pulled me back "as a joke". At least then I could have reported them for assault at work.

@Colourmeclear
They feed off your energy until you have nothing left then move on to the next one.

This line really hurt me b/c I recognize myself in this. When I met my DH I was so full of energy and life and I think this is why he picked me. Fast forward 25 years later I am just a ghost of my old self. I cannot even recognize myself any more. But this started right away. 2 years into our marriage my mom told me that I have totally changed. Of course I got upset at her saying it is ridiculous for her to expect me to be the same now as a married women and a mother vs. when I was a single women. But I knew even then, deep inside, that something was wrong with my relationship, that it was changing me in a way I should not be changed.

My boss is definitely narcissistic.

I agree that there's a massive insecurity behind it all (hidden deep down). He takes a million and one selfies, highly competitive, always chasing something/someone, never happy with what he has and always has to be liked. If he isn't liked then he must discredit that person.

With malice, there is intent. With intent, there is choice. Since there is choice they can be shown how to choose differently, without malice.

That is the normal thought process people tend to go through when it comes to dealing with people who behave badly. One assumes the ability to know right from wrong, good and bad and approaches the interaction from that point of view.

The thing with a true narc is that there is no right and wrong. Only them right. There is no intent on their part in the way normal people see intent as a result of choice. Malice is their immutable default state of being. It is their reflexive state. They are not capable of any other way of being.

Strict no contact. Refuse to exist in their rality.

Such an interesting thread.
The one I know has the following behaviour patterns:
Highly competitive and very financially successful.
Extremely motivated.
A huge but fragile ego.
Super sensitive to criticism and takes great offence and often revenge.
Unable to see wrongdoing in anything they do, it is always someone else's fault.
No empathy, sympathy, kindness or generosity.
Dislikes perceived weakness physically and emotionally.
Poor parenting skills-complete disinterest and disappointment in the child (child has some learning needs.)

I have learned that this person thrives on being 'worshipped'. The power is diluted from them if you refuse to worship and point out poor behaviour. This manifested in sulking and 'silent treatment' for many years. This has now largely stopped if you refuse to show it has affected you, it's important to carry on as if nothing has happened.

Sad really, all these character traits erode love....

To answer the original Q, I don't think narcs know, because their reality doesn't allow for personal fault.

@Eaumyword
No empathy, sympathy, kindness or generosity.
I have learned that this person thrives on being 'worshiped'. The power is diluted from them if you refuse to worship and point out poor behavior. This manifested in sulking and 'silent treatment' for many years.

I agree with your points especially the above.

People, in general, are bad at being objective about themselves so definitely I think narcissists are oblivious to how they really are and how they're behaving. That's the frustrating thing.

NPD person will have some Oh Hark! moment of realization, and they just won't. They are not capable of such

Thank you.

When I read this, it was a real, 'light bulb' moment as I was background reading into what the narc in my life was all about as I was, once again, bewildered by their behaviour.

They don't change. They can't. Why change what's working. I mean, you can't improve on perfection, as far as they are concerned.

Some of the stunts the narc in my life has pulled has left me baffled, not to mention upset and bewildered.

Why did they do this ? Answer - pretty much, for no other reason than, 'because they can' so ha ha, the jokes on you. Again.

My MIL is very narcissistic. From my experience they do no self reflection, have no self awareness, they act on emotion and can’t even comprehend that they may have acted badly or were in the wrong. They simply do not care how their actions affect others as they believe that they are the only one that matters and that if there was any wrongdoing on their part was someone else’s fault and therefore perfectly justified.

I think they cannot even comprehend that other people don’t think and feel this way, they believe everyone is the same as them, so have very little empathy as they think everyone is ultimately only out for themselves, because that’s how they are.

They behave badly because ultimately they are incredibly insecure and selfish people who act on emotion and are incapable of even considering they may have done something wrong (imo and experience).

I don't think it's that they think what they're doing is the average persons behaviour , but they do think it's right because they think they know best, are the best person and are superior to other humans. They think they've got it all figured out and everyone else is an idiot when they disagree. They believe they are always right in some way even when it's something obviously horrible.

They'll twist the logic in their head to make it fit them being right. Whether that's 'she drove me to it so I'm the victim' or 'what she did was worse'.

The narc in my situation would often say "What's right, what'w wrong?" whenever I tried to point out behaviour that was unacceptable, and it was the same conversation every other day!

It was only much later on that the circular arguments and repeated conversations was a typical manipulation tactic of toxic people to keep you confused and off balance.

They avoid accountability for their behaviour by gaslighting, projecting etc, so they must know that what they're doing is unacceptable but they would rather someone else take the blame. Arseholes.

That should read

It was only much later on that I learned that the circular arguments and repeated conversations was a typical manipulation tactic of toxic people to keep you confused and off balance.

No, they don't think they have a problem.
That's the difference between a narcissist and someone who has narcissistic traits.
My dh has some as I'm sure many people do. The difference is if they can't see it themselves when it's pointed out, they can understand.

They absolutely don't think they are doing anything wrong. Neither do they want to control others nor play the poor me card. That would imply that what they are doing is in order to hurt others, but it really isn't. They have no insight into anyone else's life, feelings or needs. They honestly believe they are always right. They honestly believe they are victims. After years of dreadful behaviour from narcissists I have seen whole families turn away from them. This might really upset the narc, but they still don't have the insight to see that they caused it, not even partially. And they always feel like the victim.

I was daydreaming, thinking wouldn't it be amazing if there was some surgical cure to fix the warped wiring in their brains... but, then I realised, that you couldn't get them to take the surgery in the first place - they wouldn't believe that there is anything wrong with them in the first place.

Perhaps we could trick them into having it under some guise that appeals to their ego, but even then I can't think what, because they're perfect in their eyes already. It would have to be a flat out lie tell them they are dying and need life saving surgery.

I'm so sorry so many people's lives have been ruined by these toxic monsters. It's both heartbreaking and comforting reading these similar/same stories, though I find it validating and makes us less alone, I wouldn't have wished my own experiences and horrors on anyone. Thank you to each of you. You are articulating things so brilliantly. It is a great help to so many people.

I just have to add I am another that can recommend Dr Ramani on YouTube, she has so many videos really delving into things and how to deal with them. The comments under each video are worth reading too.

@Eaumyword, very close to my experience, except the dc (academic and capable) are playmates so useful and help his image but they are ignored if they have needs.

I definitely think there is a genetic factor or propensity to the trait as why do some people with narcisstic parents fail to become narcissists themselves?

I think at points Ex knew something was wrong with him but his ego couldn't accept it. In the early stages of a relationship he was more accepting to changing his behaviour but over time as he gained control (through marriage, having children) he choose to go back to his natural character. This is why control is so important to them as without it they feel others "control" them by asking that they alter their behaviour.

I think they can mimic good behaviour as image is important to them and they need relationships more than non narcisstic people but it's exhausting and unnatural so they are unable to keep it up.

It's why relationships will always fail. Once they don't get a benefit from a relationship (status, money, admiration) they will always discard

I liken the lack of empathy to colour blindness, a person might be told they don't see colours correctly however that doesn't enable them to change, they will always default to the wrong colour.

Of course the positive side of a narcissist is the charm, mirroring and love bombing which is certainly seductive at the outset.

@Wanderlusto

I've heard that question a lot over the years and tbh I think it's the wrong question to be asking when with a narcissist. What matters is not whether or not they realise, what matters is - that they don't care.

They dont care who they hurt, they dont care who they suck dry. They dont care who they destroy.

this is interesting.

I am supporting my friend whose marriage is breaking down. I know them both well.

I think he is a narcissist.
He definitely thinks he is always right, if a professional disagrees with him, then they are wrong, and have obviously not had the insight that he has had.

But what strikes me, and the reason that the marriage has lasted so long, is that he genuinely wants it to work. He really loves his wife, and he really does not see that his behaviour is destroying her.
He would say that he has tried really hard, changed a lot, and gone to great lengths to make it work.
But he has not tried/changed the things which are not working for her, but rather the things that he thinks are not working (and as he is always right, he knows where the issues are better than her)

I have seen a lot of gaslighting behaviour, but I am pretty sure he is not doing it on purpose, he is doing it, because he believes he is right, and her opinion is 'misguided' or due to lack of information, etc etc.

So, I would say he does care, he cares very much, but he is unable to change his behaviour, because he doesn't believ he is in the wrong.

I've been involved with a narc since last July. Sometimes I think am I wrong? Is he not a narc is it in my head? On Monday he got in trouble at work. He's only been working there since Easter. When he was offered the job they said he would get a van and fuel money but it's not happened. He said I can't really go making demands and having it out with him after being late for work this morning. So it threw me off a bit that he thought that. However the whole conversation was just about him, work, his life with anyway how are you love thrown in as an afterthought. So that's pretty standard narc. I often wonder how they're able to trick someone into love, and manipulate when he's not the sharpest tool. He definitely thinks he's a king though and believes he's always right. Any arguments we have it gets turned round to me.

My F was a narcissist, though I never saw him that way when he was alive (he died 23 years ago). He never once apologised for anything, except when he was dying of septicaemia in hospital and apologised to my DSis for what he had put her and me through when we were children (sexual abuse)

He was very controlling in his relationship with my DM, constantly accusing her of cheating on him, both to her directly and to me once (apparently he said this to my DB too). My DM didn’t know about the sexual abuse, otherwise she would have seen the irony of his accusations.

He was ill for many years with Parkinson’s Disease and had several strokes, which probably contributed to my DSis and me repressing our memories of the past abuse, which came flooding back when we had young DC. (I had PTSD, which gave me scary flashbacks that I couldn’t place.)

My DM wouldn’t accept that his behaviour towards her was controlling and abusive when I pointed it out earlier this year; she blamed his accusations on his illness and his medication. (Curiously, she did believe us about the SA, but somehow couldn’t believe that he was abusive to her, too.

To answer the question of the thread, I don’t believe that he would have known that his behaviour could be described as narcissistic; he was a devout Christian who spent years serving as a missionary. He also strongly believed that the man was the head of the household.