So you think narcissists knows they are behaving narcissistic

[Nicky2021]

Just sat thinking.
Do you think they know exactly what they are doing and saying?
Or do you think sometimes they actually believe that how they are acting is acceptable and normal?
In my experience I genuinely believe he thinks he is behaving normally and hasn’t done anything wrong and when he tells me that I infact did these things not him, I think he genuinely believes himself.
What are your thoughts?

They know how to not doing it if the audience doesn't suit.

Not officially diagnosed by anyone except me, I think my ex is one.
Always right, even when faced with evidence that he’s isn’t. May backtrack at a later date, but it won’t be his fault.

Self aggrandizing stories, he’s always the best, the cleverest, the funniest and whoever else is in the story comes off worse (usually me).
But also plays the poor old me victim.
Pull him up on any of It and Mr Nice Guy soon fades.

Will defend his opinion on something as if his life depends on it. There’s no agree to disagree. If you don’t like something he does he takes it as a personal affront and you must be wrong.

Does he know? He has zero self awareness so I don’t think he does.

@Peppaismyrolemodel Hm, see I disagree ever so slightly with that. I believe that some people are predisposed to become psychopaths/narcissists but it is their parents that bring them down on one side or the other. I also believe that they can be made by abusive parents without the genetic predisposition.

I have done a ridiculous amount of reading studies on this to try and get some closure. Although I now possess a lot of interesting information, I have had to admit defeat and arrange counselling as the psychological injuries aren't something that I can repair alone.

[quote FreedomAnniversary]@Peppaismyrolemodel Hm, see I disagree ever so slightly with that. I believe that some people are predisposed to become psychopaths/narcissists but it is their parents that bring them down on one side or the other. I also believe that they can be made by abusive parents without the genetic predisposition.

I have done a ridiculous amount of reading studies on this to try and get some closure. Although I now possess a lot of interesting information, I have had to admit defeat and arrange counselling as the psychological injuries aren't something that I can repair alone.[/quote]
Try out for size, can you also say ‘some 2 yo are predisposed to psychopathy’; that 4 yo girl is predisposed to psychopathy; that 7 yo boy, etc.

If you’re comfortable with that then 🤷‍♀️

It gets less difficult to hear as the ages get older, bc we expect children of an older age to have developed the empathy that would enable them to not act w/ narcissism.

It isn't that I'm comfortable with that, it's that everything I've read does suggest a genetic link. If the parenting is good then they can override it, if the parenting is poor then their chances of developing the disorder are so much higher.

@FreedomAnniversary

It isn't that I'm comfortable with that, it's that everything I've read does suggest a genetic link. If the parenting is good then they can override it, if the parenting is poor then their chances of developing the disorder are so much higher.

Are we talking peer reviewed in reputable journals? If so- links would be v appreciated!

@Doghead

They 100% believe their behaviour and opinions are right.....and everything you do, including not serving their every need, is wrong. I speak from bitter experience. They never change because they can never see the error of their ways

Because in their reality, there are no errors in their ways.

In order for someone to know they are hurtful and wrong, they have to be capable of acknowledging that they are those things. A true narcissist is simply missing the part of the personality that is able to consider that they could be wrong. It is literally impossible for a true narc to see that.

It is extremely difficult for a normal person to deal with a narc because they will view the interaction through a normal lens, and try and make sense of it as though it were a normal interaction.

Literally every single interaction with a true narc is gaslighting because their personal reality is not the same as a normal persons.

I think they're inherently deluded and they deceive even themselves. No self awareness which is why you can't reason with them and arguing with a narcissist is pointless. I also believe a lot of narcissism is underpinned by very low self esteem and a total lack of sense of self. I do wonder whether therapeutic efforts are worthwhile in this group as they will delight in the empathic efforts of the therapists, revel in the attention and punish them if they ever do/say anything that challenges them. If someone is in a relationship with a narcissist then I feel relationship counseling can do more harm than good.

@Turkishangora

I think they're inherently deluded and they deceive even themselves. No self awareness which is why you can't reason with them and arguing with a narcissist is pointless. I also believe a lot of narcissism is underpinned by very low self esteem and a total lack of sense of self. I do wonder whether therapeutic efforts are worthwhile in this group as they will delight in the empathic efforts of the therapists, revel in the attention and punish them if they ever do/say anything that challenges them. If someone is in a relationship with a narcissist then I feel relationship counseling can do more harm than good.

This is interesting too! Some approaches for all personality disorders, inc npd, think that alternative therapies (ie, group therapies etc) can be a way forward. Although there aren’t any clear answers-

@MissMarks - my brother is a narcissist too. Ticks all the boxes. The last few years have been a nightmare - have had family matters to deal with. Paints himself as the eternal victim, switches into aggression and rage if he is questioned, long rambling emotive emails and texts with all sorts of accusations. Can dish it out but can't take it. Manipulation to get his own way, no self-awareness of how his behaviour impacts on other.. constantly changing goalposts to fit his current demands. The list goes on and on and on. I try to feel sorry for him as we did had an abusive childhood ourselves, but he is just so horrible and he has had such an impact on me.

@Peppaismyrolemodel Yes, couldn't be bothered wading through random pages so I spent a lot of time reading abstracts to see if anything was worthwhile reading. I'll see if I can find them later for you. They aren't all from the UK, but they seem to have similar or linked findings in a fair number of them.

Lovely, thankyou!

Some know damn well the way they treat others is unacceptable - however, because they also believe they are so much better than everybody else, doing exactly that is their right; other people deserve to be treated badly because they encourage bad treatment by giving time to others' needs and feelings.

They do not need nor want anybody feeling sympathy or sorry for them. Because that would at best, be proof of your inherent lower quality human being status and a vulnerability to be taken advantage of - and at worst, rile them into such a rage as you daring to think they're worth pitying, they will do something even worse as punishment for insulting their sense of innate superiority.

Cold indifference (just as they feel for the mere mortals they stand head and shoulders over) is probably the most useful tack. They won't like it because they can't hurt or manipulate you if you don't give a shit one way or another.

@samyeagar, yes - dealing with my ex (who I am convinced is a covert narc) is like banging my head against a brick wall. The normal rules of communication do not apply. You put it much better, but I wholeheartedly agree. It seems like, in every interaction he ever has, he is weighing up whether the other person is higher or lower than him on the 'power and influence' scale and treats them accordingly e.g. the stereotypical coward. Will be aggressive towards a teenager, woman or scrawny man on the street but not a bodybuilder, will be humble and polite to his seniors at work but act like a tyrant at home etc.

They know.

How do I know? Because I've seen them at work.

Just one example. Going back to abusive ex for a visit with DC1, he has my photo up in a frame (ah, bless he still thinks about me)

Left, needed a wee, knocked on the door, go up to toilet, photo frame is gone? Checked the unit it was on, he'd put it back in the cupboard.

So he knows what he's doing. In the same way he cried and begged for me to come back, it's all an act.

I caught my parents talking about my brother (they are both narcissistic parents) and they were saying 'no no, you can't say that, you need to be careful with him, he'll cut us off'

So they know their actions have results/consequences.

They lack empathy, they are dangerous, they will suck the life and soul out of you, and they do not deserve your empathy.

They targeted you BECAUSE you have empathy. Because then it's easy to feel sorry for them.

@Nicky2021 I think they are born that way. The nature/nurture argument doesn’t fit with my own experiences. I would say it’s 90-100% nature. There is room for sympathy for them because their pathology is incurable and must be an awful way to live (from the point of view of a non-pathological person).

I wonder what produces this kind of person? Is it they're upbringing. I mean they're not born that way are they.

I have read they're very insecure and have low esteem. Need to research it a bit more I think.

I can't waste any time feeling sorry for manipulative coercive essentially abusive individuals who make people's lives a misery.

My exh is a narcissist! l asked him once about his compulsive lying and whether he he actually believed what he was saying was true. He said he was so confused by everything that he would struggle to tell the difference between what was real and what wasn’t! Wow!!

Bumblebee1980a as I understand it, it can be a lot to do with shame during childhood!

[quote everythingbackbutyou]@samyeagar, yes - dealing with my ex (who I am convinced is a covert narc) is like banging my head against a brick wall. The normal rules of communication do not apply. You put it much better, but I wholeheartedly agree. It seems like, in every interaction he ever has, he is weighing up whether the other person is higher or lower than him on the 'power and influence' scale and treats them accordingly e.g. the stereotypical coward. Will be aggressive towards a teenager, woman or scrawny man on the street but not a bodybuilder, will be humble and polite to his seniors at work but act like a tyrant at home etc.[/quote]
Another huge mistake people make when dealing with or even talking about someone with NPD is this idea that the NPD person will have some Oh Hark! moment of realization, and they just won't. They are not capable of such. None of the rules of normal human interaction apply.

Not really. They believe it's the fault of everyone else for not bending over backwards to give them what they want. They care only about themselves.

My mum has narcissistic tendencies and I grew up in a household where my brother was golden child and I was scapegoat. Shortly before I went NC I asked my mum what she thought about certain behaviours (behaviours she’d inflicted on me) and how would she feel if someone did that to my brother. She was quite enraged by it stating they were a terrible way to behave and she’d be very angry if anyone did those things to my brother. I pointed out she’d done that to me and she couldn’t change the subject quick enough although she didn’t deny what she’d done to me. I caught her out a few times criticising someone else’s behaviour even when she’s done it herself.
I think narcissists know their behaviour isn’t right but it doesn’t matter because they are perpetrating it. It’s part of their superiority complex. I’m so glad I am out of all of it

@username12345T

It's difficult without knowing more but they do know their behaviour is wrong as they don't treat everyone in the same way. I have known people with personality disorders and they treat everyone the same which is why they end up with criminal records. Garden variety abusers are just nasty bastards who do whatever they can to control you, their target. They tend to be nice as pie to everyone else. They are manipulative and target you. Sometimes they target you as you seem like a strong, no nonsense person and they want to knock you down a peg or two. They enjoy the feeling of power and control.

They dont treat everyone the same as they need to maintain their facade of respectability/ good guy/ charmer but they feel the same derision and contempt for everyone as their chosen target but hide it. Very few people with NPD are formally diagnosed as they dont think they have a problem.

I have a brother who have very strong narcissistic tendencies. It took me a very long time to figure out what was wrong in our family dynamic growing up, and only put the pieces together when I was an adult and far away from the situation. My parents used to enforce and enable his behaviour growing up, he was never called out on how he treated me. I believe he thinks as a core belief he is right, he is the victim. No point in fighting or trying to change him - I've just stepped away from it all.