March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi, can I join the thread please? I have a thread in relationships at the moment where I have received some wonderful advice and among it was @AttilaTheMeerkat and others suggesting I check out this thread. I have only skim read a few pages so far but you all seem very supportive.

Honestly I feel I shouldn’t be here as thankfully there was no physical abuse at al in my childhood and I don’t think there was emotional abuse either. What I have now though, despite being a grown up with 2 DC of my own, is a terrible relationship with my parents. They disapprove of most of my parenting and are extremely critical and impossible to please.

Anyway, just wondered if I could lurk and read for a bit on here then maybe post if that seems appropriate!

I needed somewhere to open up and disclose things as the emotions otherwise will tear me apart.

I'm 43. I had an abusive childhood with a narcissistic mother and an enabling father. This behaviour has persisted to this day. I had a brother that was the golden child.

They have always been thrown small amounts of money at me (around £100) a year, and I went down there yesterday for the latest installation. Whilst there I mentioned that our washer was broken and how we are struggling as cannot get a loan for a new one until November.

I woke this morning to a voicemail from mother accosting me for asking for money for a washer and then deviating to attack me in other areas. I'd normally just delete the message without listening to it (coping strategy) but something was different today. I immediately called her mobile and exploded yelling angrily with no restraint about their behaviour being a major issue from my childhood until now, their obfuscation of events and the lack of emotions and how I have developed PTSD, CPTSD, GAD,severe anxiety and major depression because of it, and that they have never taken any responsibility or accountability for any of it. I was also raped and sexually assaulted (outside the family, in a country park) in an attack lasting almost two hours, this I could never disclose.

I hung up, but I'd missed stuff, so 20 minutes later I called back and was diverted to voicemail where I explained things is detail. I need to make one final phone call to them.

I guess I've effectively orphaned myself and gone no contact. My emotions are all over the place and I'm deeply upset. I've worked very hard on my self fregarding my relationship with my father over the past few years and I am going to miss him greatly.

To certain people on MN it will be obvious who I am, and in fact I want to divulge to make sure they know who I am. My SIL is on here (Hello Sarah), and one of my aunts who is good at stoking fires but who I love very much and am likely going to also lose (Hi Sandra). My actions will have started rippling across familial barriers and borders and the next few days I will see this intensify with me being cut off. I've effectively ostrasized, orphaned and castrated myself.

I just needed to spill somewhere, sorry. I'll post this in Stately Homes too.

@WhipperSnapperSteve and @TooStressyTooMessy welcome, sorry you have to be here. I am sure the wonderful and wise more senior members of this thread will be along with excellent advice very soon but just wanted to say please not to feel that you shouldn't be here, or anything like that. Abuse is abuse and it does enormous harm. There is always a listening ear, some kind advice and a place to vent here and what I can do is say your feelings and experiences are absolutely valid, you are both obviously incredibly strong people and you are doing the right thing.

WhipperSnapperSteve, please also don't talk about ostracising, orphaning or castrating yourself. Your situation is incredibly difficult but it's not your fault. I am a lawyer and love an analogy, so I apologise for this, but think about constructive dismissal in the employment context. Sometimes people leave their jobs of their own accord, but the law recognises that their workplace was making their life so horrible that they effectively had no alternative but to leave. It's the same with an abusive family but turned up to eleven! It's impossible to live with that behaviour, let alone flourish, and as heartbreaking and difficult as it is you have to get out of that atmosphere. I'm in a similar situation to you and over the weekend I'm planning to reach out to a couple of people I may have lost permanently on account of cutting my mother off for the second time. I'm not expecting much from it, but if people know you and love you they will not believe any lies that are being told about you and will make an effort to keep in touch.

Hi Steve

I remember you well from previous writings, am still a regular visitor to the Stately Home.

So very sorry to read all this; I think you needed to make that call to your mother though and am glad you found your anger. Your dad has indeed enabled your mother and he is a weak bystander of a man. You are so much better than your family of origin and none of this is your fault in any way. The fault lies with all the people who have abused you, its all on them.

Re the loan needed for the washer is there any way you can contact a credit union; is there a community based credit union service in your area?. Some communities do operate these at a local level and I would consider also approaching an organisation like the Salvation Army too. You do not have to be at all religious to contact them and I know they do good works within the community generally.

@WhipperSnapperSteve

"I've effectively ostrasized, orphaned and castrated myself."

Or set yourself free?

My actions will have started rippling across familial barriers and borders and the next few days I will see this intensify with me being cut off. I've effectively ostrasized, orphaned and castrated myself
Steve, these words are the sentiments of your oppressors, they want you captive to soak up all the things they dont want to deal with and acknowledge.
What you have done is set yourself free, it's as if your inner self has leapt out and gone nuclear before the still brainwashed part of you has chance to stop it!
Of course they want to reign down hell upon you, you have thwarted the (self appointed) overlords.
Cut loose girl, head for the hills, allow yourself a few backward glances to appreciate the beauty and splendor of the burning bridges.
I'm so sorry for what you've been through, I know how painful it is when the people who are supposed to put you first wont even acknowledge your trauma and distress. You have to protect yourself from these people, sadly they lack the ability to change or 'modernise'

@TooStressyTooMessy
Or...
Freed yourself
and
Relesed yourself from the burden of their behaviour
and
Laid the path to a more tranquil future
and
Made space to let positivity in
and
Given yourself the boundaries to enable self respect
which will
Give yourself the ability to reflect
which will
Give you the realisation that you're not orphaned, you're protected from harm
which will
Give you strength on strength
This is the start of a new beginning, not a loss

Thanks for the welcomes . I’m not sure I am really ready to be on this thread yet but hopefully I will feel ready soon. to all.

Hi,
Thank you, these threads are so helpful in understanding more about family dynamics and the effects.

I know my mother is a narcissist and my father is an enabler.

My parents have never cared at all and have openly said they regret having me/some of my siblings.
Reading these posts and others online I can't see many where their parents are just plain not interested and the impact of that.

My parents could care less if they never speak to me ever again. I find this so hard, its almost like I want them to be abusive like they were when we were children because it is at least some contact. They don't call, dont message and do not visit me. We live a few minutes from each other. I send cards, presents and occasionally may get a card back. Occasionally a card for my children. I made the last contact with no response.

How do you cope with everyone having family who care about them and love them? I am concentrating on my own family but it really hurts and I just cannot get over being so unwanted.
Does anyone have this? How do you cope?

Maeway

Welcome to the Stately Home thread. I hope you will find some solace here as well as support.

I would suggest you look into getting therapy to deal with any and all residual feelings of fear, obligation and guilt. You also have to let go of any and all hope that they will somehow change even now and say sorry. They will not do that and your dad here cannot be relied upon either. He has also abjectly failed you as a parent. These two have not changed fundamentally since your own childhood.

What are your boundaries like with regards to them?. They seem very mixed up and that is not surprising either given that you were raised by them. You were trained by your mother and her enabler to put your own self last with them first. You still seek their approval even now through gift giving; approval they will never give you.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; yours appears to be scapegoat and that also gets applied to your own family unit now. What are your inlaws like here; if they are nice then I would further concentrate my efforts on them. You need radiators in your life here; not drains like your parents.

Being abused is NOT a form of contact you at all want or deserve; its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way. This is all on them.

Please cease sending them presents and suchlike; its not wanted and their repeated rejection in the form of non response is only making you feel worse. You need to have no contact with them whatsoever; its really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and their all too willing enabler. Drop the rope here, with you out of the frame hopefully these people will then turn on each other. You do not have to keep on putting yourself (or for that matter your own family unit) directly in their line of fire; they really do regard kindness as weakness here. You have two qualities though these people lack entirely; empathy and insight.

I have every sympathy with you and can certainly relate to parents being uninterested. My parents remain very much hands off grandparents and my mother once told me that if I was to have any children to not expect her to look after them in any form. My son is now an adult and he's not bothered about them or my surviving inlaw (who is a narcissist). I am not bothered all that much about these people either and I came to realise its not me but them. In my case I was seen as the more "capable" sibling at home so was left to get on with it. I've had to carve out a life for ourselves with them being very much on the periphery of it.

@Maeway you're not the only one. My not so dear parent actively drove past my road on their way to see their DPs children but moaned it was too far to drive to cone to me so I was expected to go them each time. Where i would then be given a shopping list of tasks or chores to do for them straight away never the other way round, oh no.I began to wonder if it was me, so started testing the water. You'd think they'd know the name of the DP of my friend from primary school, married to for over 30 years? Nah. My God Children in their late 20s? Nah. The name of where I've worked for 30 years? Yes! just kidding, nah. Advised me not to have kids as they wished they hadn't. Was utterly disinterested in going wedding dress/venue etc shopping with me. Forgot to invite me to a significant birthday party. I once timed my contribution in an hour's phone call and it didn't even get to a minute! As soon as they'd offloaded their self inflicted hard done by rant they put the phone down. I had to call them back to get in the babysitting question I had been trying to ask. bet you can guess if I got a yes or no When I started pushing back by using the same tricks of not pausing for breathe and oh the novelty actually answering a question instead of going for a short one syllable answer matched to the attention span, they'd just get up and walk off from me. It was so hurtful and felt for a long time that I was unanchored. I found an amazing onljne therepist that's enabled me to get perspective and see it for what it is and I no longer feel that pain now. I hope you get to the same emotional space - it is possible.

Maeway
It's very cruel of them to not acknowledge you at all, to be ostracised can feel worse than abuse because the 'message' is 'you don't exist' (words which I did hear from my own f-pog*)
I would just turn away from them, maybe have some kind of ceremony where you officially sever ties to them and build your life without them, these are not people that you want in your inner circle anyway.
It was a theme in my childhood too, jokes that I was lucky to reach adulthood, I was a mistake etc

*fpog=female provider of genes

Help with dealing with a flying monkey.

So parents nominated someone 3-4 weeks ago as 'go through x' -a close family member genetically but someone who I haven't spoken to for nearly 30 years.

I texted 3 weeks ago and asked for a time to chat that day or the next -no reply and they phone two days later when I was at work and didn't leave it a message.
So I left it 2 weeks and then again texted and asked to arrange to pick up my stuff from my parents. Then texted -ring after 2pm. I rang at 4pm and it was odd-they suggested they loved me and the children and wanted to help -I pointed out I just want to collect my stuff. They told me to write an itemised list and said they wanted to help. They then suggested and asked if I was having help from social services -etc -WTAF? and asked what counselling and support I had organised for my kids. Had to cut the call short.
Rang back at 7pm. No reply they rang after 10.30pm. I texted them 3 good times this week -they ignored them all and texted on the one day I said I was busy.Since they fucking telephone tennis. I'm losing the will to live -I just want my stuff back.

I had horrible sleeplessness last night thinking about my family of origin, the years of NC (my choice), and the knowledge that my mother won't be around for much longer.

I thought about how I should really go and see her, and maybe I should try to make contact with my siblings and smooth things over.

And then I remembered all the reasons why I went NC.

Nobody said this stuff was easy.

Solidarity and hugs to everyone.

Iamaperiwinkle
the problem is that the stuff gives them leverage over you and they are milking it for all it's worth, the intention of the flying monkey is to draw you in and capture you, the 'stuff' is being held hostage.
Maybe just humour them, feed them BS tell them what they want to hear, act like you'll go along with them, then when you get the stuff just ride off into the sunset?

I'm wondering about texting 'my side' to the flying monkey. I probably shouldn't bother

Indeed do not bother. Flying monkeys are not interested in hearing your side of things so their opinion should be ignored.

I second that!!
Anything you give them will be used against you, or in other words dont 'JADE'
explaining, justifying yourself etc is the action of a subordinate being accountable to those who have power. Take the position of the powerful person, never explain or apologise you are not accountable to them!

@Maeway @Bugalugg

I too have a disinterested parent and it's just so hurtful time after time. Every time I lower my expectations, they seem to go lower. I'm not sure if they're a narcissist but they certainly do lack empathy and can be quite self-absorbed.

I really would welcome any advice from the wise posters on this thread about how to make my peace with it, accept that they'll never change and protect myself from being so hurt and disappointed over and over.

Therapy was, in every sense, life-changing for me. I can't recommend it enough. I now have my own sense of self worth and make better choices as a result. Looking back is just that, seeing things but without feeling the hurt and rarely thinking about it whereas before it always there.

Can I post here if it was my grandparents ?

Morning all. I feel really demoralised. The FM has engaged in a flurry of texts this morning. Even the FM is full of lies. One text said "It is clear from your text that there is a great deal of upset and stress on your side. Can you please let US know your address and where we can drop your items and confirm by return that you have support in place for yourself and the children' another said 'I have left you a detailed voice mail to try to arrange your things being dropped off to you' FFS- there is no voicemail -the FM has NEVER left a message. I asked them to put the bin bags of stuff at the bottom of their drive tomorrow at a given time. The FM says 'I have phoned to offer you as much support as I can and left you messages'.

I'm not going mad but after 6 texts they have at least stopped. I will have to wait and see if I can collect my stuff tomorrow.

It's weird though in one text they said 'please let me know a neutral place where the parents can take your stuff' and another said 'we can drop your things off at a place nearby' -so maybe the FM is coming. FM again mentioned social services and asked what support I have put in place for the children and myself. FM is 500 miles away but maybe they plan on coming to supervise my pick up of my stuff.

@Bugalugg

Therapy was, in every sense, life-changing for me. I can't recommend it enough. I now have my own sense of self worth and make better choices as a result. Looking back is just that, seeing things but without feeling the hurt and rarely thinking about it whereas before it always there.

When I have the money I really want to sort out therapy

Sorry Iamaperiwinkle but I am sadly not at all surprised to read what you have written about the flying monkey. This is typical of how they behave.

These FMs are often well meaning and easily manipulated people sent in by the narcissist to do their bidding for them. As I wrote to you, flying monkeys are not interested in hearing your side of things so their opinion should be ignored. You need to block the flying monkey.

You are ultimately going to have to let go of the stuff your parents are holding onto and further using as leverage against you. You are sadly unlikely to get any of these items back; do not give it any more power.

ATM the stuff includes all my main paperwork though -literally a huge box of paperwork / passports / bank statements / contracts etc as well as a work laptop. They have previously stated they don't want it and will return it but are just making it difficult for me to collect it.

The FM just seems intent on following their narrative. Parents use eldest as the apple of their eye -and they haven't spoken to her for weeks and she is refusing to speak to them -although they haven't contacted her in the last few weeks. When I left that morning they wanted her to live with them Monday to Friday and I said no -and apart from one phone call where she called them out on their lies -they haven't been in touch since. By wanting our address -if gives them an 'in' to contacting her directly or sending a birthday card or whatever.