March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Yes it is normal to doubt yourself but it’s not you, it’s them. Do not allow anyone to tell you that you are at all too sensitive .

@AttilaTheMeerkat agree my father is totally weak. And was blamed and verbally harangued so much when I was growing up. I didnt know that it was such a consistent pattern Such a horrible atmosphere to grow up in. Thanks for being such a good long term support here.

@MonkeyfromManchester hope you can get one day to a low or no contact position. It is so freeing! Has made me so relieved!

@AttilaTheMeerkat thanks. No one has said that to me, I'm just thinking out loud really. Are DH and I being unfair on her? She's not had an easy time of it (much of that her own doing though). I reread a letter she sent my DH a few years ago, and it is clear she feels totally unloved and despised. Obviously I can only see it from my DH's side, but even now he keeps most of his deepest thoughts about her buried and doesn't discuss how she made him feel as a child/young man. There are only a few specific incidents he talks about freely. I don't push him on it, it's his choice to talk about it if he wants to. I worry that me getting fixated/angry about current incidents are just me adding fuel to the fire and maybe things wouldn't be so bad between them if I didn't react to her the way I do.

@Mumfun contact is getting less and less. Now the hair salons are open, she’s desperate to know whether I will take her. That’s either the last vestige of control shit or realising her behaviour is shit. The former, I think. Told MM that I’m not taking her. Feel a bit mean - to him - but I owe her fuck all. You’re so right, soooo liberating.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

I would urge MM to think long and hard before embarking on the Power of Attorney process; is this really something he wants to get involved with re his mother?.

www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney is a good link. Its also worth putting a call into the Office of the Public Guardian beforehand.

If the Hag too was diagnosed with dementia you may be hard pushed to find her a care home that will accept her readily as not all of them by any means do so. I would actually encourage MM to look into this whole issue of care homes now too rather than later on.

I second this. My MIL asked me to be her Power of Attorney and I refused. My DH is, but she wanted me as back up. I said no, gave me reasons and she blanked me. That's her way. If you say anything that she doesn't like, disagrees with or that highlights anything she may have done wrong, she flounces out and acts like it was never said.

@AttilaTheMeerkat yes, he’s got antibiotics, cranberry (urologist pal said it does work but non sugar), a ton of water and The Day of the Jackyl on Tv.

I think MM’s dad was a rescuer and the Hag would have played the victim. MM’s first wife died aged 26 of breast cancer and BIL was Hag’s step child. I think Hag views this as 1) canonisation worthy 2) gives her the right to control him. He’s 60.

Part of me wants to ask her about her marriage and then I dread to think.

Your FIL sounds dreadful. They seek each other out. Or seek victims.

I have a bit of a dilemma that others on this board may understand.

When DD was born, DM persuaded me to move across the country to be very near her. With hindsight this was a mistake for many reasons but this is years later. DD is in junior school now, has friends.

I don't really have friends. My mental health has been shot to pieces for years. I work, and that means we're not badly off financially. But on a personal level I've not been in a great place. At points I've been very broken but had to hide it to keep going. Some people, other mothers have seen me as odd or off and I find myself avoided, rejected and now stay away from anything like school gate interactions.

Id like to move somewhere new, with enough distance from DM but still near work, and so I can start again. Financially I can buy a nice 3 bed within a certain radius.

But I feel this gut wrenching guilt every time I consider basically moving DD away from everything she knows. I don't want there to be a negative impact on her. She has virtually no family on either side, just school friends and a few hobbies. There are kids she's known since nursery because it's a small place. If I move her, she'll lose some of the only anchors she has.

If we stay, I'm increasingly concerned at DMs potential influence as she gets older, including one or both of us lined up to be her emotional and physical carer once stepdad is gone. I can't do it.

It's a WWYD. I feel like it's a choice between what I need and what DD needs. I'm unhappy. Doesn't mean I'll be happier elsewhere, though.

Hi Tiny

I would move house and certainly move home before your DD starts secondary school. The group of children she is with now will all separate from each other when they go into such a school and will go onto make different friends.

You both need to be away from your malign mother's overarching sphere of influence and you also need to rebuild your life. Hiding your own pain to keep going is not doing either you or your child any favours. What therapy have you had, if any, to date re your mother and stepdad?.

Put more physical distance and mental distance in your head between you and your mother. Moving closer as she coerced you into doing was indeed a mistake but you to your credit recognise this. I would also think your suggestion in that she could be lining you up to become her de facto carers is a correct one.

Haven't had any therapy. Have read a lot because I thought something was wrong with me - personality disorder, adhd, autism. From what I've read complex ptsd seems logical. I tried for years to get NHS or other free help, nothing there and I guess i am reluctant to spend our tight budget on expensive private support. Not sure what benefit it would bring.

What have you read?.

NHS therapy can take a long time to arrange and they could probably only give you a limited number of sessions. For complex PTSD you need specialist support. Spending some of your budget on you would help you as well as your daughter so it is worth doing. You are worth it.

Until you yourself try some private based therapy you won't know whether its working for you or not. BACPs website may be of some use to you here. Remaining where and as you are both physically and mentally is not an option for you or your child.

Reading and videos and all sorts under that category. So for example 'from surviving to thriving' 'the body keeps the score', various books about mother daughter narcissism, boundaries. Websites like out of the fog. Richard Grannon, the crappy childhood fairy and others in YouTube.

I've tried the NHS for about 20 years. Around 2 to 6 years ago I was in a loop where they would 'assess'. Me for an hour every 3-4 months, encourage me to take higher and higher doses of Ads while promising something vague. It was traumatising every time, took me at least a week to recover. The person assessing had usually never read my notes, I never got to see the same person twice. After a few years I started to press more for a solution, they said I was to severe for things like cbt, but not acute. I was chronic and severe so there was nothing available for me. My GP seemed confused but just shrugged at that, and I've never trusted them since. I hung on hoping for help that was never there.

I did go to a private therapist once. Found via bacp. Based my soul to them, around 4 years ago. They persuaded me to pay an upfront fee around £150 to register with them, promising they would allocate someone to me. They seemed so genuine. When I got back in touch to ask who I could see they kept telling me noone suitable was available yet. I feel I was conned. So I guess bad experiences, leave me not trusting the therapy community.

I am so sorry you had a bad experience and hope too that you reported these people to BACP if they are not acting as they should.

I would suggest you try BACP again and this time a) do not pay upfront for any service you have not yet received and b) interview several therapists and at length before deciding on any particular one. You ultimately need to find a person who fits in with your approach.

There may be some services on here that could be useful to you (this is from MIND):-

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd-and-complex-ptsd/useful-contacts/

My DM has suddenly started to either feign or exaggerate illness and other ailments. A few weeks ago she ‘nearly choked to death’ on a pea (yes really) and now she’s ‘cracked her ribs’ for the third time in about fifteen years. Interestingly I’ve never once hurt my ribs in almost 40 years. How unlucky she is to have done it three times . DF agrees that she exaggerates, but she needs constant reassurance from us. Earlier she messaged me to ask what time Boots opens so she could go and get some ‘strong painkillers’. I replied that presumably they open at 9am because it’s a normal working day. Which she surely knew? She could also have easily googled if she really didn’t know.

Thank you. I did not even think of reporting them to BACP. Was in such a bad place at the time they were kind of my last desperate attempt to find help. I ended up off work sick for 6 months just crying. Now you've said that I feel bad because I'm guessing they've done it to others since.

Hi Tiny

Well hopefully they have not done that i.e mess other people about and its not of your doing or your fault if they did. You weren't to know that they were going to give you the runaround. You were in a bad place then and you trusted them to help. Anyway hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I would still urge you to find someone to talk to; you may find the link to MIND I posted to be of more benefit.

I bit the bullet and texted my mother this morning. No reply. I phoned about 11 and no reply.

So I guess they aren’t talking to me now after the last round of the sickly sweet ring is early on Sunday morning and pop over and because I didn’t - I’m being ignored.

I plan to text / ring each Thursday. And if they respond I will talk to them and update them without all the details and keep the communication open.

Please do not do that to yourself re communicating with these people. Drop the rope entirely along with any residual hope that you may harbour that they will change and or say sorry. These people do not apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. It would not surprise me if going forward they merely continue with their own brand of nastiness to further try and punish you for any imaginary transgression on your part.

It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissistic parent and their associate enabler. Women like your mother cannot do relationships at all so need such an enabler to help them.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Please do not do that to yourself re communicating with these people. Drop the rope entirely along with any residual hope that you may harbour that they will change and or say sorry. These people do not apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. It would not surprise me if going forward they merely continue with their own brand of nastiness to further try and punish you for any imaginary transgression on your part.

It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissistic parent and their associate enabler. Women like your mother cannot do relationships at all so need such an enabler to help them.

Really appreciate your advice but need to arrange collection of our things and also children’s EHCP reports etc are going to their house and we can’t change address now they are being issued. Any suggestions ?

Just dropping in to say that I've just picked up keys to my new place, changed my mobile number today and have hired a car to move my stuff over the weekend! I've been very up and down over the past few days but have decided that this is it, this is the new start. I'll be able to give back a lot more here once that's over. Sending best to all of you!

@Cactus1982
I wish there was a special ward where these parents could be thrown where they could compare ailments like pea choking, cracked ribs and whatever the cock is wrong with The Hag aka MIL. The staff (I’m thinking Nurse Ratched) could move amongst them administering strong doses of that newly Mumsnet patented drug ShutTheFuckUpsterone.

Hardly any contact with The Hag this week.

Mr Monkey has briefed her GP about her ever increasing anger and memory. GP will see her next week.

Cue massive moan about her unwashed hair (get the effing Carer to wash it), the hairdresser (it opens on Monday, I will book it as soon as possible), a general moan about the world and:

“will you ring me?”
MM: “I ring you every day”
“No, you don’t”
“I do. At six”
“It’s only once a day”
“I can’t ring you in the day as I’m at work. And it’s plenty”

Queen Narc of The Guilt Trip. We no longer fall for it. I struggle to see who the actual fuck she thinks she is.

Well done @CeciledeVolanges - this sounds like great progress. I hope your new place will be the sanctuary you deserve.

Periwinkle

They will use your remaining items as a hold over you and there is no guarantee they will give these items back let alone cooperate. Abusive people like them never cooperate . Are the remaining things of sentimental value and or otherwise irreplaceable?.

Re the EHCPs how far away are these from being issued?. I would contact the LEA concerned about this and have those sent to your new home. Re other post items I would suggest you contact the Post Office and apply online to have your mail redirected, this usually takes about 5 working days to set up.

Re the EHCP documents it may well be an idea for you to contact IPSEA re the content as these documents can contain a lot of waffle and have no real substance to them. Ipsea are very good and I have found them to be very helpful previously.

Cecile

My best wishes to you re your new place. May it become a sanctuary for you.

Monkey

You may well find that the Hag’s carer is unable to wash hair as it is not part of their remit. In addition they don’t often have the time either to do such. I would not bother with personally booking her a hairdresser appointment either.

My mil would fit right into that hospital ward too!. She is also one for ailments, many are exaggerated and often stated for effect. She wants to garner attention/sympathy from the GP by doing that and lays it on thick to get it as well.

@CeciledeVolanges

You are AMAZING!