March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Sicario unfortunately, I can’t block her because of MM’s job he can’t always answer the call. And if there was a “genuine” emergency... She couldn’t understand why we didn’t want to have her alarm thing linked directly to MM’s phone. 😳

She used to ring me constantly but I stopped answering the phone. And that stopped the calls. I think I only answered then because it would stop her ringing MM’s phones whilst he’s waiting for the call back. I’m getting better at ending the calls from her very quickly. It’s absolutely obvious I want her off the phone and out of my headspace.

I won’t be answering my phone again today.

There. Just turned it off. 🙌

@lubeybooby I am in the middle of a similar situation myself and probably not managing it very well (and this is the second time I've tried to do as well). The Freedom Programme and Why Does He Do That are really good explainers of the toxic behaviour, but she might need other resources going forward, e.g. I'm reading as much as I can about coping after emotionally abusive relationships, boundaries etc. My advice about who to cut off would be that if she wants to stay in touch with people who are not the narcissist, give it a go. If they do anything that's too objectionable or persist in being flying monkeys, then maybe reconsider, but one or two conversations where they just try to persuade you to get back in touch don't actually do any harm, though they can be stressful, and it might be worth it to keep in touch. My mother's parents are very dear to me and last time I cut contact my DGM would occasionally say "I won't tell her you've been here" and suchlike because she knows how her daughter can be and has been on the receiving end many times. We've also had many a conversation where we realised that each of us has been told something entirely different, sometimes to try to cause a rift and sometimes to manipulate us into doing what my mother wants! Now I write that, it was actually that, and my DGM telling me she had noticed the completely different treatment my sister and I received (I had been repeatedly told I was imagining it) which set me on the path to recognising the situation for what it truly was. It's entirely possible that you will find the same thing.
The one thing I would say about therapists is that most of them will not advise you to cut contact, they will leave it up to you. I personally found that quite difficult as I was doing it without support generally.

My goodness everyone, I've just blocked my mother on Twitter (bizarrely twice, unless it was some poor person who exactly shares her name). Does anyone else get really on edge doing this sort of thing? My hands are trembling and my heart is going a hundred miles an hour even though I'm safe in this AirBnB!
By the way, speaking of trembling hands, I think my mum has read some extremely intimate letters that I had in a box that she briefly had in her possession. I hate it when she does intrusive things like that and my whole body started shaking with fear and disgust (possible overreaction but that stuff was really private and I know she will use it against me, maybe send photos to her friends, throw it back at me in a twisted way). My dad's response was "bad things happen in the world. This isn't one of them".

Sounds like a big step @CeciledeVolanges ! Well done.

Yes, I felt the same when I decided to NC with my mother. It’s fading now though, I feel more and more at ease with the decision each day.

@CeciledeVolanges Thank you for that - ah yes I forgot the term flying monkeys, that's so fitting from how I imagine things might go. I'll pass this on to DD (probably the entire thread actually, I've told her about it) Well done blocking your mum

@lubeybooby your daughter has a fabulous mum in you.

@CeciledeVolanges so glad you’re doing well on your journey. It’s good that your DGM sees the patterns. It’s very hard to explain to anyone what’s happening. I think I sound mad when I talk about The Hag.

The Hag hasn’t phoned yet for her Narc In The Sunlit Uplands Moment which is currently being provided by Mr Monkey being ill with a urinary tract infection. Yesterday was a day of waiting for NHS 111 and out of hours GP for MM to get a diagnosis. So, understandably, it takes a long time. Y’know Easter Sunday and A GLOBAL PANDEMIC.

Throughout the day we had lots of calls and “worry”. And the classic lines of “I am his mother” to me when she rang me TWICE for an update - the update of “we are waiting for a phone call and no, they haven’t phoned yet”

She actually suggested that MM phone her on the hour to update her. CONTROL. DRAMA. OR....Has she got shares in Vodaphone?

The second time she called me I ended the call “I’ve got to go, BYE” “don’t just say bye to me”. I hung up. She rang back. I ignored it. I’m surprised she didn’t leave a spiteful voicemail - she’s done that in the past WOW what a listen - but she didn’t. I think she now knows that evidence IS evidence.

Once MM had spoken to GP at about 9.30pm, he rang the Hag to let her know. “I’ve been so worried” “It’s not the same as seeing a doctor” - thanks, so reassuring. “You don’t understand that at my age I need to be helped not to worry”. I think “worry” is a signifier for “I’m a living saint”. “I don’t understand why Monkey doesn’t want to talk to me about MY son”. NOTHING about “how are you feeling?”

I think a UTI isn’t nearly good enough for her. It should be Ebola or something to really go to town on.

I do shudder when the phone rings. My heart races. MM has the habit of leaving his phone in whichever room he’s not in. Seeing her name flash up makes my blood run cold. I used to answer and pass her over. Now I just pass it over. No desire to speak to her whatsoever.

I think the hairdresser is the next time I’m on duty but I’m going to arrange a hair appointment for her on a Saturday and leave it to MM. I cannot bear being exposed to her toxicity.

Sorry, these things sound so trivial but cumulatively it’s horrible and exhausting.

I do shudder when the phone rings. My heart races.

This is a clear sign of how The Hag makes you feel. I had the same reaction at the sight of any call from any member of my FOO, knowing that it was ALWAYS going to be a heap of drama heading my way.

The passive-aggressive stuff in the post from my sister was another big trigger.

Nobody has a right to make anyone feel like that. Blocking is the only way.

@Sicario it’s awful. I do have a physical reaction to her. I feel much better actually from being away from her / out of contact. My mood has settled down.

The passive aggressiveness from your sister is awful. I think it’s the worst way of behaving.

If MM didn’t have his stressful job I would block her on my phone. She doesn’t ring me constantly like she used to. I think she gets that I dislike her intensely.

To MM: “monkey doesn’t like me”
Bang on the money.
I have NO idea what he’s supposed to do with that. Take her side? Shout at me? Dislike me because I’m cruel to his mother?
Just ridiculous.

Oh and she’s not phoned. She’s waiting fir MM to ring her so she can guilt trip him. Bitch.

Hopefully MM will not call her. There is no need and besides which he is unwell. UTIs in men are a right sod to deal with and I hope he feels better soon.

I have a sort of visceral reaction when I see MILs number on the caller along the lines of what does she want to pick her son's brains about?. Well that and to blow smoke up his ass telling him how wonderful he (i.e. she really) is. I hardly ever get mentioned in their conversations.

Monkey

re this part of your comment:-

"To MM: “monkey doesn’t like me”
Bang on the money.
I have NO idea what he’s supposed to do with that. Take her side? Shout at me? Dislike me because I’m cruel to his mother?"

Indeed what is he supposed to do with all that?.

Its a way I think of making him more torn between you and his mother. She wants to keep him trapped in any and all inertia he has along with his FOG. If you read other posts on MN generally about men and their toxic mothers you will find that many of them are torn between their partner/spouse and mother. Many of them seem to default to child like mode in their mother's presence, cannot and equally will not defend their spouse/partner and actively seek their approval even as adults. All of this is an additional problem for said spouse/partner.

Hi AttilaTheMeercat
I went to Tesco and left him to phone her to discuss shopping. He wanted to ring her before settling down on the sofa with gallons of cranberry juice to sort out his UTI. He’s run down - stress.

But, of course, she’s the most unwell of the lot of us: BIL with MS, me with bipolar and MM with chronic anxiety (which is miles better now he’s had therapy, CBT and has opened up more about how awful he finds her - brilliantly, he no longer feels fear, obligation or guilt. He does things far more on his terms.

Of course, it was a row. She was vile. She’s fallen out with BIL because he won’t do what she wants.

MM doesn’t engage with the shitthrowing about me. He’s told her in no uncertain terms that I’m the love of his life (god, I love him) and her behaviour about me is ridiculous and how I do loads of things for her (past tense: did) I see loads of this toxicity on this page of mothers to their sons’ partners. It must be awful for those women to see the “substitute wife”.

I’m lucky as Mr Monkey takes my views seriously and thinks his mother is fucked up in the head. It’s got worse over the last few years as Golden Boy has disappeared and lovely SIL is no longer the target of her shit. SIL is from another culture and her English is often remarked on FFS. I didn’t know (pre my time) that it was mooted that the Hag move to Scotland to “help out” e.g. control and give SIL a hard time just as she’d had her first baby. She stayed for three months and reading between the lines was a complete nightmare dominating the house. SIL and twat of a BIL had loads of rows (which I believe now about SIL out of her house). I think both Hag and BIL saw SIL as someone they could control (she was 20, he was twice her age) Mmmm, control features so much in Hag’s life. SIL pushed back and has been resented ever since.

Hag’s aim has now shifted to me, particularly, as I’ve supported MM to go to university as a mature student and have the career he wants. My mum gave him the money to do his MA (I got patio doors LOL). Hag sees all this over the past 20 years and has seen him slip from his grasp. I don’t know where MM gets his strength from as childhood was AWFUL. Apparently, Hag’s mother was horrible to MM’s dad for his similar happy, optimistic disposition. Hag disliked her MIL as she was cheerful. Shame that MM’s dad died at 36. But he was emotionally abused by Hag (screaming, silent treatment) she’s an absolutely dreadful woman. I wonder whether their marriage would have lasted.

I really feel for women abused by MILs and not having the backing of their child partners. So sad.

Yep, I know what you mean about the utter sense of dread when the phone rings. The “you are the wonder in my life” from your MIL to your husband is pure emotional blackmail and control. She’s just pretending you’re not there. AWFUL.

Can’t we just dump them all on an oil rig in the North Sea and be done with it? They can moan together, create dramas and fall out with each other and live in Narc World.

@lubeybooby Tough for someone with an autism diagnosis to handle. I wondered as a first step could she go much lower contact with father and keep up with step siblings and grandmother. If any of the contact is ever through the father could she start to initiate contact directly herself. She could then move the situation gently to what she is more comfortable with, without conflict. She may have to go NC eventually but with direct relationships already set up it may be easier. All tough stuff I know and glad she has got good support

Hi was here some years ago and glad this thread still going. I have been contacted by NPD mother for first time for 7 years. Have been NC for this time. Hugely beneficial and very happy. Never going to resume contact especially as the NPD had started to take form of scapegoating my young children and others in the family. My mother is a really nasty full blown narcissist. My question is whether to reply. I am surprised but my instinct is to reply and tell her how awful and unacceptable her behaviour has been. I would not engage in correspondence but be clear that my email was final. I didnt really get the chance to say all I wanted to say before because I cut them off as the behaviour was so awful. Father is total enabler who has said awful things also to me at her behest. So should I reply if I think it benefits me? Or should I maintain silence?

So just now my DM has accused me of ‘snapping’ at her. The conversation went like this:

Me: I don’t know what I’m going to take for lunch tomorrow in work

DM: Tomorrow?!

Me: well yeah it’s Tuesday tomorrow.

DM: Oh alright. I forgot, you know I forget things. There’s no need to snap at me!

I’m incredulous. I didn’t snap. Just pointed out it’s Tuesday tomorrow! She clearly forgot tomorrow is a Tuesday, which is fair enough considering it’s been a long bank holiday weekend. But instead of just saying ‘oh yes I forgot and muddled the days up’. She has a rant and accuses me of snapping at her! And honestly the hypocrisy is laughable considering my entire childhood was me walking on egg shells around her, not knowing what mood she’d be in and frequently being on the end of her snapping. Though I’m almost certain I didn’t snap I am lot more outspoken and confident than I used to be, and I really think she’s threatened by it, and this was an attempt to put me in my place. I’ve also caught her looking at me with disgust recently as well.

Drives me fucking mad.

@Mumfun I’m learning (thanks to this page) that ignoring is best. These freaks thrive on conflict. I’m not 100% there yet but the less engagement I have with The Hag (MIL) the better. She is horrible but I’m stepping away from her despite her living 10 minutes walk away, having been ill and our great misfortune in being bubbled with her. She hates the lack of attention as she thrives on anything even the negative. Try to not engage.

@Cactus1982 yep, these people could start a row with a wet flannel. She will be definitely threatened by you stepping away and getting assertive with her. They do not like it one bit.

Just noticed a blank text from the Hag from yesterday when I didn't answer her second call. I can just imagine her pure fury as she couldn't text with her writing hand as it's broken. 😂

She’s phoned to check in with MM - aka whine.
“You don't ring me everyday”
“I ring you at 6pm”
“You could ring me in the morning before you start work”
“No, I'm getting ready for work”
I'm so proud of his assertiveness. She makes it REALLY hard. She's lethal for someone who's 84 and “vulnerable”. FFS.

"My question is whether to reply. I am surprised but my instinct is to reply and tell her how awful and unacceptable her behaviour has been. I would not engage in correspondence but be clear that my email was final. I didnt really get the chance to say all I wanted to say before because I cut them off as the behaviour was so awful. Father is total enabler who has said awful things also to me at her behest. So should I reply if I think it benefits me? Or should I maintain silence?"

Maintain your silence. What your disordered mother wants from you is a response because she knows she has you then. Do not give her or her enabler of a H any response. Giving her a response will not do you any good at all; these people never apologise nor take any responsibility for their actions. It also ceases the current no contact you have with her and any email from you, no matter how carefully worded, will send a tsunami of shit your way.

Do not do that to yourself and in turn your own family. Block her further from being able to contact you.

Many such men to these types of women are weak bystanders and enablers. Women like your mother cannot do relationship and the men in their lives are either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded.

Mumfun

It is NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissistic parent.

Cactus

Would further cut down on all interactions you have with your mother; these people like nothing more than a fight and or the last word. Your interaction with her gave her both. Its really no point in communicating with someone like this and being with her anyway is probably like watching a rerun of a tv show you have always hated.

Can I ask a few questions? When I was younger I was terribly shy but I still suffer from low self esteem.
I have since gone on to achieve a lot in my life and have 'work persona' so no one would know.
But things my dm did was scream at me for studying in the library and tell my father I was drinking (never was).
Once I wanted to apply for a job in M&S part time and I asked her what I should do. She said they take on special needs people so I might have a chance. I do not have any additional needs. I still dwell on this stuff year later. I have a career. She lives on benefits.
I can't seem to get over this

Monkey

MM may need antibiotics if he indeed has a UTI; cranberry juice may not be enough here to treat it. He also has to be careful that the infection does not travel into the kidneys. UTIs in men can be a real concern and it can make them feel very ill.

Women like MM's mother cannot do relationships at all. Many such men to these types of women can also be weak bystanders and enablers. The men in their lives can be either as narcissistic as they are (this was the case with late FIL) or are otherwise discarded. She got what she wanted out of that relationship with him and they could not abide each other. Now he is portrayed in a wistful tone by her, the man who did not even hug him, my now H, as a child!!. The man was a complete shit.

WoodlandBelle

Counselling or some other form of therapy may be helpful to you in cutting through all the crap your so called mother rained down upon you. Have a look at the BACP website and find someone without familial bias who will fit in with your approach.

Its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way.
She was and remains throughly jealous of what you have achieved in life. Leave her to her lonely life, you do not owe her anything at all let alone a relationship.

Are your parents still together?. Did you get any support from your dad, was he aware of what was happening re his wife and you here?.

Yes they are together and when we got married she caused a lot of trouble. That was a bad time in my life. But things are a bit better. I stayed away for a long time. Things are not great with my siblings since but it's all amicable. My father told me to apply to university as far away as possible to start again. He was supportive (though they never supported me from aged 17 and I didn't come home for the holidays etc or she would scream I was using the house like a hotel). At one point my father asked me to leave university and when I did finally move back near home he moved a short flight away. That said, later on he was horrible when I didn't contact them after some horrible behaviours. Said I was mentally unwell. I can't deal with all that. It's a nagging voice and pain in my heart all the time that I will never be anything. I have a dh and dc and good life. Rarely make long term friends.

Do you ever doubt yourself? Like, wonder maybe it’s not them that’s disordered, it’s me? I’m too sensitive? I’m letting DH’s history with his mother cloud my judgement? I feel like this when things come to a head (as they seem to be doing at the moment). I end feeling bad, pitying her. Maybe DH and I are the ones in the wrong. Maybe we ‘fuel’ each other’s anger about her.