Uninvited to family wedding

[R0SEMARY]

Sorry this is long as there’s a lot of background and I don’t want to drip feed. Names/ details changed of course.

I’ve been married for 20 years to John, we have teenage kids together and John has a daughter, Helen, from a previous marriage. Helen is in her 30s and so was a teenager when I married her father. And no, I was not the OW - they were divorced years before we met.

Our marriage has been very difficult for the last 10 years, mostly because of my husband’s many affairs (among other things) . I’ve tried to leave several times but it’s complicated and I’ve stayed for the sake of the children. It’s bearable because he works away a lot and we pretty much lead separate lives.

When Helen was a teenager she lived with us for half the week. This was hard for me, I will admit, because she had a lot of behavioural issues and was very challenging. I tolerated a lot of verbal abuse and inappropriate behaviour as I knew she was troubled and unhappy. She was occasionally physically aggressive towards me, especially when I was pregnant.

After she left home things got better of course and during her 20s and 30s we have got on OK. She lives at the other end of the country with her girlfriend so we only meet up a few times a year but keep in touch by phone, what’s app, zoom etc .

They are getting married this autumn, postponed from last year. We are all involved - my teenagers are bridesmaids / ushers - it’s been years in the planning. Naturally I have my Step MOB outfit and I’ve arranged ( booked and paid for ) a week’s holiday for us all around the event, as it’s a 9 hour drive away.

However my husband has always struggled with Helen’s sexuality. He disliked her last girlfriend and really hates her current fiancée ( says she’s fat and ugly ) but I’ve always tried to smooth things over and persuade him to keep on good terms with them both. He originally didn’t want anything to do with the wedding, partly because he hates her girlfriend and partly because he has an issue with same sex relationships in general. He still thinks it’s a phase that Helen will grow out of ( sorry I know that’s offensive ).

However I talked him round and made all the arrangements so he can’t say it’s too much hassle. He didn’t even want to walk her down the aisle but I persuaded him to suggest instead that she ask her mum as they are closer.

Then tonight, out of the blue, Helen phoned me to say that she doesn’t want me at her wedding any longer but she still wants my husband and children to attend.

I was absolutely gobsmacked. We’ve been talking about this wedding for three years, I’ve helped her choose bridesmaids dresses, flowers, menu etc (at her request). She wouldn’t say why she was doing this.

There’s been no arguments or falling out of any kind - all recent conversions have been about the wedding, her work, her cats etc.

Of course I asked her father what was going on and after a long conversation he admitted that he has been lying to Helen about me for years. Basically all the negative and nasty things he has been saying to me about her, he has told her that I said them, not him.

I am so shocked. Ever since I’ve known him he’s been complaining to me about her. About her refusing to attend school as a teenager, about her self harming ( which he said was just attention seeking ), her lies and stealing, her sexuality, career choices, her dropping out of university, cheating on her previous partner, her character, her lack of religion ( he is from a conservative religious background and raised her in it ).

I’ve spent years listening to him talk about her . So often I’ve defended her and tried to get him to be a little more open minded about her beliefs and lifestyle. Persuaded him to be polite to her partners and talked about their good points. Made the effort to keep in touch, sending gifts and cards etc.

Don’t get me wrong, some of what he complains about is right and I’ve agreed with him . But I’ve never said it to anyone except him and I assumed that what we said was between us. It never crossed my mind that he was telling her anything that we discussed. It’s one of the few things I thought we were united on - that we support each other in dealing with her. Even during her adult life there’s been a lot of drama and I’ve always supported him.

And now I discover he has been undermining me to her for all these years. I’ve worked so hard to try to keep things friendly and to keep open the lines of communication and he’s been working against me behind my back.

It’s not that I thought DH loved me - I’m not under any illusion about that. He only stays because he likes the domestic servicing and he doesn’t have to pay child support or parent his children.

But I just don’t understand why he would tell all these lies for years. Why would anyone do that ? I’m just so shocked I don’t know what to think or what to do.

@R0SEMARY It really, in no way whatsoever, is you. I've followed the thread from the beginning and continue to be impressed with how you're handling this situation. It must be such a mindfuck. I am queueing up to help you with that patio...

John has helpfully told me now that he married me for convenience. Years ago a poster on MN told me that he didn’t want an equal life partner, he wanted staff at home. I’ve never forgotten that and she was absolutely right. When John told me , I felt like he had punched me in the stomach. Because even though things have been bad recently, I truly believed we married for love ( well I did ). And that somehow things had gone wrong somewhere along the line.

Everything that come out of his mouth right now is causing emotional harm, which it's designed to do. Please have as little to do with him as possible, and leave as soon as you feel you can.

I will try to be more open minded about therapy / counselling.

@R0SEMARY People like these with personality disorders don't tend to truly do the work in therapy. Because they often can't admit they have any sort of problem. So they might supposedly go if a family member wanted them to, to manipulate them, then drop out quickly. Or in all sorts of ways relate to therapy wrongly.

What a mess, of their doing. Take a break, if you can. A few days to yourself. Let them re write history because they will. Be kind to yourself. You need time to consider your needs. Fuck em.

@Youllbeoldertoo . Day to day we see very little of each other.

Today is a typical day during lockdown. We’ve probably said no more than two sentences to each other - I never see him.

He’s been out most of the day today, I don’t know where and I’d never ask. I’ve been working at my desk ( in my bedroom ) and then outside doing some gardening.

He has his own bedroom and he uses the living room in the evenings / when he’s not working. Teens game in their bedrooms and if they want to hang out they do so in my bedroom ( as he uses the living room ) or kitchen.

But the kitchen is shared territory and he’s quite difficult about it, so they avoid it if he’s home. He tends to come in and start shouting at them about the noise or mess.

Pre Covid he was away all the time and the teens were out most evenings and weekends at sports / clubs etc. I spent a lot of time taxiing them.

He works lots of evenings and weekends and pre Covid he worked away probably one third to one half of the time. So kids are I had the house to ourselves. It was fine then.

No he’s never kind and no we never have a laugh. He will act reasonably in front of the children eg if he’s going out to the supermarket he might ask me if I want anything.

He goes through phases of never speaking a single word to me unless there’s someone else in the room. But he’s not done that for while - I think he knows the kids are onto him.

He eats a lot of carry out food and will go out 2-3 times a week and get some for himself and the teens ( you can’t get deliveries here like in England ). Apart from that heats up microwave meals. He eats a LOT of rubbish.

I hate that he feeds the teens so much crap but there’s nothing I can do because they love it. I can only fight so many battles.

If I’m making something in the kitchen and he wants to use it, I have to leave, otherwise he will be difficult. So just now I’m in my bedroom on Mumsnet and I will wait for another hour or so before I use the kitchen so as not risk having to deal with him.

Because he was out today I was able to get a washing done without his being annoyed. He wants me to do the housework, it’s just he doesn’t want to see me doing it. He prefers invisible staff.

As I’m typing this out I’m thinking “I’m surprised I’m not thinner “. Then I remember the chocolate in my desk.

It does sound like they both tell so many lies they can't keep track of what ones don't make sense. As you said if Helen really believed she was banned from your home for years that would surely have been ammunition (in her world) and worthy of continual mention.

@Rubytinsleslippers - I’d love to take a break but we are in strict lockdown here, there’s nowhere to go.

OP that is awful. I hope you will find a way to sling him out.

Yes indeed @MrsRockAndRoll. I’m sure she would have brought it up at every opportunity, not kept it secret for a decade.

Also I don’t remember how long it was between visits but I don’t think it was longer than a year. It all makes no sense.

@R0SEMARY
I’m so sorry op, this is heartbreaking.

😢 that is an awful existence for you and the DC.

I know it sounds melodramatic but it’s almost like a religious conversions- you see things in a totally different way. But it’s hard at the same time because you realise how stupid and deluded you were before and that the evidence was always there , you just didn’t see it. You were blinkered by your own beliefs and world view.

@R0SEMARY you are not stupid.

You are a person who openly and generously loved someone. That is not stupid. Or deluded.

I wish I could give you a huge hug. I can't tell you how impressed I am by your fairness, your even-handedness, your compassion. Your attempts to understand those who have viciously harmed you.

YOu're a star.

@SoulofanAggron

People like these with personality disorders don't tend to truly do the work in therapy. Because they often can't admit they have any sort of problem. So they might supposedly go if a family member wanted them to, to manipulate them, then drop out quickly. Or in all sorts of ways relate to therapy wrongly

Yes of course, I’m still believing what I’ve been told. I have no idea what’s true and what’s false. But surely a therapist would see through their lies - I’m assuming they are a lot smarter than me.

Or maybe as you say they went for a few weeks/ months to keep up appearances. Goodness know why John would do that - it’s not like I care what he does.

Though after his last affair he used to spend hours agonising to me, telling me how tough it was for him, how much he missed his affair partner and how he felt they had betrayed him. Until MN told me to stop that and tell him to talk to his therapist about it instead.

Well that’s not actually what Mumsnetters said - they told me to tell him to fuck off to the far side of fuck off etc etc. I can’t remember it all. But it was a lot of fucks.

I did stop listening to him and his problems, so he probably needs someone else for that.

I wonder if Kate really is controlling or if she has told Helen "Tell your family it's me, I'll take the flak and run interference " . If that is the case it may be that one upside of this is she is seeing what Helen is like and has a chance to run.

I'm so sorry for what has happened and is happening to you OP but I am another person cheering you on. Everything you have said has convinced me you are strong enough to get out the other side.

Thank you @MeltsAway, you are so kind. I don’t feel like a star, I feel like a fool 🙈🙉🙊.

@RandomMess it’s worse because of lockdown, as it is for most people. Normally he’s away most of time. When he is in our country he works late most nights and comes home late and goes to bed.

Sometimes the kids will say “ where’s dad? “ and he will have been out of the country for a week and they haven’t noticed. They are usually out most nights - they all have a lot of hobbies and play sports, it takes up every Saturday and some Sundays. I spend a lot of time taking them places and the oldest can drive now.

They all have a great social life which I’m very happy about. But of course that’s all gone now, same as teens in your country.

I agree with sending her the link and letting her read it. Then get rid of your husband he sounds absolutely awful!!

how horrible your kids cant even use their own living room if hes home-does he see his kids as an inconvienience-did he even want any

Feeling your pain, I have a similar step daughter who, while didn't live with us, her sister (also SD) did.... we went to hell & back with lies, drama & completely nonsensical dramas constructed solely to make me suffer & feel like shit!! The younger one is now grown up but is back in older sisters clutches & NC with us.... breaks my heart as I loved her like a daughter. Resilience has to be your aim, you know the truth (not about stories between him & her but about what you know you've done) and this will past - keep your eyes in your future once this shot show has passed & you can have a drama free life with your dc. I'd love to hold your hand right now - the MN army are right behind you xxxx

@GabsAlot

how horrible your kids cant even use their own living room if hes home-does he see his kids as an inconvienience-did he even want any

To be fair they don’t want to - they don’t watch TV, they only want to game or watch videos.

@wannabebetter

Feeling your pain, I have a similar step daughter who, while didn't live with us, her sister (also SD) did.... we went to hell & back with lies, drama & completely nonsensical dramas constructed solely to make me suffer & feel like shit!! The younger one is now grown up but is back in older sisters clutches & NC with us.... breaks my heart as I loved her like a daughter. Resilience has to be your aim, you know the truth (not about stories between him & her but about what you know you've done) and this will past - keep your eyes in your future once this shot show has passed & you can have a drama free life with your dc. I'd love to hold your hand right now - the MN army are right behind you xxxx

Thank you @wannabebetter, I’m sorry you’ve also been through so much with your step daughters. It’s so hard isn’t it.

@Binglebong

I wonder if Kate really is controlling or if she has told Helen "Tell your family it's me, I'll take the flak and run interference " . If that is the case it may be that one upside of this is she is seeing what Helen is like and has a chance to run.

I'm so sorry for what has happened and is happening to you OP but I am another person cheering you on. Everything you have said has convinced me you are strong enough to get out the other side.

Helen has NEVER said that Kate is controlling. That’s just my impression of her. She is very rude and bossy to John and patronising and dismissive to me and the kids.

She has a very over inflated view of her own importance and never stops boasting about her job and salary and banging on about her very right wing views.

So she’s rather hard to like. Teens think she’s an arsehole.

I’ve been unfailing polite and welcoming to her, as I would be to all my kids partners. I keep my opinions on her to myself.

Sounds like Helen and Kate are well matched then!

Stay strong but remember you are allowed moments on weakness too - sometimes you need a good cry or a rage to let it out. There's no such thing as the wrong feeling.

But surely a therapist would see through their lies - I’m assuming they are a lot smarter than me.

@R0SEMARY Don't beat yourself up. These types of people can manipulate all sorts of people, including professionals.

Whether a therapist would challenge them also depends on the school of therapy. Some are 'person-centred' entirely, and just focus on the individual's wants and needs. They will rarely confront anyone.

Basic therapists aren't necessarily trained to deal with people with PD's. If anything, they might be or appear more gullible than you or I, in as much as they just see their goal as providing empathy and support for the client and what they want to do in life. This must be the worst type of therapy for narcs etc. As you can imagine, they'd love anyone focussing on them and agreeing with them for an hour.

The person with a PD (and/or just an abusive, manipulative person) also can learn 'therapy speak' which they use as part of their manipulation of their loved ones.

My 'ex' was a therapist and he had narcissistic traits. So sometimes they might even meet a therapist that complements their values.

If a therapist did confront a narc/person with a severe PD, I think the person would just quit therapy and maybe move on to a new therapist if they for some reason felt the need for therapy.

I don’t feel like a star, I feel like a fool

Think of it as you're clever. You were with a very manipulative person and you've now realized what he's like and get the chance to start afresh. Maybe you weren't doing what he wanted as much and that's why he started showing his hand more.

A couple of things spring to mind here

1. You're NOT a fool at all. You've been caught up in a maze of smoke and mirrors for years, and only NOW have you been shown the exit. If this was a genuine mirror maze, they are a nightmare to get out of anyway - include the smoke and constant lies and misdirection and trust me, ANYONE would have difficulty finding the exit. So please be kind to yourself over this and just acknowledge that at least you DO now know that it's all smoke and mirrors AND you know where the door is, so you can get out.
2. Kate may well be a very unpleasant person. OR she might have been fed such an almighty pile of poisoned bullshit by Helen that she formed and opinion of you and yours that is also built totally on lies. I don't know - but I would guess, having seen what she's seen, that if it's the former, the wedding will go ahead as planned and they can feed off each other until the end. IF it's the latter, she might have had her eyes opened to a lot of previously unrealised stuff (bit like yourself!) and be thinking "fuck this, I need to get out!"

That will be an interesting outcome...

Regarding therapy/therapists - there are good and bad ones. Rule 1 with an abuser (you have 2 of these) is NEVER go to therapy WITH them because they will twist everything and get the therapist on side, which then adds to the abuse - this pretty much tells you all you need to know about how well therapists can see through people like your husband - they're human too, they fall for the smoke and mirrors too. So no, it's unlikely that therapy did him (or Helen) any good at all, assuming they ever actually went.
For you, on the other hand - find someone who you gel with. You don't have to like them (that's not part of it) but you do have to feel safe with them. And they should listen to you and let you speak - your voice is the one that needs to be heard.
There are types of counselling where a therapist is able to shut you down, but that's not what you need. Mostly they should just listen and help you get everything out, then guide you to find your own solutions.
I would wait until you've left though - because it will be better to start once you're free from these malign influences in your life.

I'm glad you're still updating us - I hope you're managing to keep yourself on a relatively even keel, despite your world spinning into bits around you - TRUST yourself, you can do this.

If you have shared savings, take it all as payment owed for her wedding, therapy etc. He’s a vile piece of shit.

Helen feeling powerless in her relationship could make her worse to her family. When i was in an abusive relationship i fought my corner too hard in situations where it didnt matter much, and stuck my headcin the sand about my relationship. The need to feel some control i guess.