Please help me understand how it is better for my son to have shared custody between me and my abusive husband, than for me to stick this out

[sc4red]

I have been married for several years and have a son under the age of one. My husband is emotionally abusive to me on a daily basis. He gaslights me constantly, tells trivial lies regularly, calls me names, puts me down, mocks me, criticises me, gives me the silent treatment etc. I have learnt so so so many lessons from this relationship and have done so much work on myself, and I truly understand how I have ended up in this situation.

If we didn’t have our son I would divorce him tomorrow but we do. I see him interact with him and he shouts at him whenever he gets frustrated (basically every time my son cries), is very rough with him with changing nappies and so on. It truly breaks my heart to witness this. My original plan was to stick this out until my son graduates (Yes the next 20 years), purely so that I could monitor all the interactions and intervene where necessary and protect my son as much as possible. Now I’m at the point where I just don’t know if I can go through with that. It is taking its toll on me mentally and emotionally and I am permanently drained.

If we were to divorce, I imagine worst case scenario he would get 50% access. I feel it doesn’t matter if I document things, there’s no physical evidence, he’ll just deny it all and so I have to just work with what’s within my control and that is the reality that he will have my son half the time. In the event we divorce, my husband will move back to his parents house and live there and his parents are extremely abusive too (where my husband has evidently learned all this stuff from). His parents hate me because I haven’t been obedient etc, and I just know he and his parents will talk badly about me and treat my son poorly (which is the norm to them). I feel like I am throwing my son to the wolves just to keep myself happy? I read all the time that people say by staying my son will learn an awful lesson about what relationships are like. But by leaving he’s going to be subjected to extremely unhealthy behaviours for all the time he is with them, and should my husband remarry (I am confident he will), my son will just be subjected to that toxic relationship.

I feel physically sick at the thought of everything that will go on whilst my son is not in my care. My husband will allow his parents and extended family to take my son wherever and do whatever and there will be no regard for his safety, and he will learn so much unhealthy, toxic stuff. I can’t understand how on earth it is better for me to divorce my husband than stay for the sake of my son?

Also should I leave I am financially secure and will have a place of my own so that’s not an issue. And I can’t even be bothered to fight him for child maintenance because I know he will fiddle his accounts etc

Oh OP, I am so sorry.

I absolutely think you have to leave, you will not be able to protect your son well in the end because you will be worn down by this, and - even if he did get 50% - at least your son would spend 50% in a healthy environment with you, which is better - and when he’s bigger he can just cease or limit contact if he doesn’t want it.

But, he may not get or want 50%, especially if you don’t need money from him - might he just disappear from your lives??

Anyway. Please make plans to leave now. It’s great you are financially stable. I am sure that others will be along with more specific advice, but worth a call to Women’s Aid tomorrow to find out how to try to limit contact and protect your son.

Leave now. You cannot spend the next 20 years like this OP. Your son won’t thank you.

Also I always see people say 'the husband will never commit to having the children 50% of the time' but believe me he will, just to spite me. And he will dump my son on his parents and head off out

You will throw you son to him if you stay within this relationship for

spurious and otherwise weak reasons. He won’t say “thanks mum” to you for choosing to stay with his dad and could well accuse you of putting his dad before him. Staying for the sake of the child is never a good idea and in your case a particularly poor one. He cannot afford to grow up thinking that yes, this from dad is how you treat women.

Has his abuses of you been documented, start leaving a paper trail with the authorities. Just because there is no physical evidence does not mean you cannot document the other abuses he meets out to you and in turn your son.

Seek legal advice ASAP and put in a claim for maintenance for his child, he is financially responsible for his son too. Do not go by mere supposition on access, get hard facts. Also knowledge is power. If he did actually care about him he would see he (your son was ok)but he does not, this man will furthermore likely use his son as a means of getting back at you.

Do consider contacting both Women’s Aid and The Rights of Women organisations.

Your son is learning some horrendously toxic things from your relationship with his Dad, too. He may well go on to repeat those things, many people do.

But more importantly; you leaving gives him one good parent. It gives him somewhere where he feels safe and sees normal life, and as he gets older, he can choose to spend his time with you. As he gets older, he’ll get a say. But equally, spiting you will get old. My best friends husband fought for full custody just to be a dick. He got 50%. He did it for seven months and then realised it wasn’t bothering her and stopped. The kids see him once or twice a year, usually Christmas Eve.

You can’t give your son a happy family, and staying doesn’t do that. You can give him a happy parent, a safe environment and good example of life and relationships, if you leave.

I totally understand your instinct to stay to protect your son. The first thing you need to do is seek out legal advice if you can.

Obviously I don't know your husband, but this seems like a miserable life to him. It's not the actions of someone who's happy. Have you had discussion where you discuss anything like this? Do you feel safe doing that? Is he even capable of having those discussions about emotions? Have you ever asked him 'Are you happy with our relationship as it currently is?'

He seems like a bully, so the answer would be probably 'no', but I'm just asking.

1. you can’t stick this out - or if you do your real personality and good side will end up buried and you won’t be the “you” which protects your son
2. you can’t really protect your son even if you’re within the home with him and his father. You say you see what he’s like with him now, so there are obviously times he is able to be unkind and abusive even now. Not your fault just impossible to avoid while living together
3. to keep the home together you will have to appease your husband and be kind to him in some ways, your son will perceive this as you pandering to his abusive parent
4. if you stay he’ll never know a happy home. Would you rather he had a happy home 50% of the time or never?
5. time with your ex may never reach 50% or will dwindle over time. Making a decision based on that worst case scenario isn’t wise and is probably a result of feeling depressed from your circumstances

I am campaigning hard for this dilemma to be better recognised

I feel your torment, it isn't an easy decision

However, compile evidence, seek help. Get out safely and then refuse contact. It will be tough and hard when he fights for it but at least whatever happens you will know you did everything you could to keep your son safe. It will also help your son to be in a household at least half the time where he can experience normal healthy relationships.

I

@EarthSight

I totally understand your instinct to stay to protect your son. The first thing you need to do is seek out legal advice if you can.

Obviously I don't know your husband, but this seems like a miserable life to him. It's not the actions of someone who's happy. Have you had discussion where you discuss anything like this? Do you feel safe doing that? Is he even capable of having those discussions about emotions? Have you ever asked him 'Are you happy with our relationship as it currently is?'

He seems like a bully, so the answer would be probably 'no', but I'm just asking.

I have had endless discussions with him. He says he is unhappy but is convinced that it is my fault because I won't have sex with him. I've made it clear I will not have sex with someone who treats me with disrespect. I truly the think the core problem is he really lacks emotional intelligence. He has no desire to work on himself or improve and I think he believes the grass is greener elsewhere. He is forever making comparisons to the marriages of his friends and family which really he knows nothing about

"believe me he will, just to spite me"

Everyone in your situation believes that to be true. In reality, it's rare. They lose interest. He doesn't sound remotely arsed or keen to be a parent

@partyatthepalace

Oh OP, I am so sorry.

I absolutely think you have to leave, you will not be able to protect your son well in the end because you will be worn down by this, and - even if he did get 50% - at least your son would spend 50% in a healthy environment with you, which is better - and when he’s bigger he can just cease or limit contact if he doesn’t want it.

But, he may not get or want 50%, especially if you don’t need money from him - might he just disappear from your lives??

Anyway. Please make plans to leave now. It’s great you are financially stable. I am sure that others will be along with more specific advice, but worth a call to Women’s Aid tomorrow to find out how to try to limit contact and protect your son.

Leave now. You cannot spend the next 20 years like this OP. Your son won’t thank you.

The thing is, whilst I am in this marriage he doesn't have too much of an interest in our son so I can protect him far more than if we divorced. I know if we divorce he will fight for as much access as possible and will just dump him on whichever family member happens to be around. He will never disappear, I know what he's like

@AttilaTheMeerkat

You will throw you son to him if you stay within this relationship for

spurious and otherwise weak reasons. He won’t say “thanks mum” to you for choosing to stay with his dad and could well accuse you of putting his dad before him. Staying for the sake of the child is never a good idea and in your case a particularly poor one. He cannot afford to grow up thinking that yes, this from dad is how you treat women.

Has his abuses of you been documented, start leaving a paper trail with the authorities. Just because there is no physical evidence does not mean you cannot document the other abuses he meets out to you and in turn your son.

Seek legal advice ASAP and put in a claim for maintenance for his child, he is financially responsible for his son too. Do not go by mere supposition on access, get hard facts. Also knowledge is power. If he did actually care about him he would see he (your son was ok)but he does not, this man will furthermore likely use his son as a means of getting back at you.

Do consider contacting both Women’s Aid and The Rights of Women organisations.

Strangely my son will spend far more time with my husband if we divorced than he would right now. Should I divorce, am I not just putting my son in the hands of an abusive man potentially 50% of the time, and having him learn how to become an abusive man himself? Can I not protect him far more if I stay?

@SendMeHome

Your son is learning some horrendously toxic things from your relationship with his Dad, too. He may well go on to repeat those things, many people do.

But more importantly; you leaving gives him one good parent. It gives him somewhere where he feels safe and sees normal life, and as he gets older, he can choose to spend his time with you. As he gets older, he’ll get a say. But equally, spiting you will get old. My best friends husband fought for full custody just to be a dick. He got 50%. He did it for seven months and then realised it wasn’t bothering her and stopped. The kids see him once or twice a year, usually Christmas Eve.

You can’t give your son a happy family, and staying doesn’t do that. You can give him a happy parent, a safe environment and good example of life and relationships, if you leave.

What if he and his family turn my son against me and my son eventually decides he wants to live with his father permanently?

@WitchWife

1) you can’t stick this out - or if you do your real personality and good side will end up buried and you won’t be the “you” which protects your son 2) you can’t really protect your son even if you’re within the home with him and his father. You say you see what he’s like with him now, so there are obviously times he is able to be unkind and abusive even now. Not your fault just impossible to avoid while living together 3) to keep the home together you will have to appease your husband and be kind to him in some ways, your son will perceive this as you pandering to his abusive parent 4) if you stay he’ll never know a happy home. Would you rather he had a happy home 50% of the time or never? 5) time with your ex may never reach 50% or will dwindle over time. Making a decision based on that worst case scenario isn’t wise and is probably a result of feeling depressed from your circumstances

Thank you so much for this. Your comment has actually made me feel like I won't be the worst mother in the world for divorcing my husband. I've buried so much of my authentic self and I am walking on eggshells daily. But surely the reality is that if a child is spending up to 50% of their time with an abusive father, they will become abusive themselves? Throw into the mix my fear my son will be turned against me and choose to live with his father permanently, nobody is talking about that side of things?

You need to get some legal advice.

My understanding is that parents usually have to demonstrate that they can cooperate closely and communicate constructively before the family courts will order 50/50 shared residence.

You need to find out if that is true and what your best chances are of achieving an arrangement like every other weekend and one evening a week.

I’m really glad that helped.

So much of what you’re thinking are worst case scenarios that are unlikely. The key thing is whether you staying actually protects your son from these outcomes. Your husband could minimise and abuse you in your own home and your son could learn to see you as powerless, unable to help him and a bit pathetic. Or he could hear what your husband and his family say about you but the rest of the time see how fun, lovely and kind you are in your own place - and come to his own conclusions (that they’re wrong and arseholes).

I think you need to talk to a counsellor yourself about this stuff and help untangle your worst fears from likely outcomes.

Sadly I think you need to face up to the fact that staying can’t protect your son at all, and leaving won’t DEFINITELY protect him from all harm either. But it does at least give him one healthy environment and a fighting chance.

But surely the reality is that if a child is spending up to 50% of their time with an abusive father, they will become abusive themselves?

At the moment your child is spending 100% of his time in an abusive environment. Abuse is his normal. He has nothing else to balance that out.

You need to keep a detailed diary and confide in your HV and GP.

Also NB many people grow up in abusive homes and don’t become abusers. But I think the best way to protect your son from seeing abuse is the norm is to remove the “victim” ie you from your husband. How well can a bully actually bully if his victim shows they can walk away?

Talk to Women's Aid OP. They will listen to your fears and help you come to the right decision.

I wouldn't under-estimate the damage done to your son by staying (and I say this as an adult child of domestic violence).

It's better because your child will have a home where abuse is not. Abuse is like smoke exposure - it doesn't stick around the smoker, it permeates the whole house and is there all of the time. You can't fully get rid of it without stopping smoking/not having a smoker in the house. Living with smoke exposure 50% of the time is better than living with smoke exposure 100% of the time.

Also, it's (sorry) not possible to protect a child from abuse by being present. You've said yourself that he is already being rough with him and shouting at him. Your presence isn't preventing this from happening. I do know that fear of what if he does worse when I'm not there - but I think this is actually unlikely. Abusers don't tend to hold back in front of people who are already their victims and know what they are like. And also as you said, he will most likely get bored and dump him off on his mum/sister/other relative, who likely won't be abusive. I know that when my ex had DS1, he would have some friend or new girlfriend around every single time and he'd be on his best behaviour.

Having at least one home where the environment is not abusive, even if the other one is, allows your son to compare and contrast the two experiences. It means that abuse is not the only thing that he knows, because it's not normal at one of his homes. The effect is much less than when he's living with it 100% of the time. It also means he is not witnessing you being abused, which is a form of abuse, or learning to placate an abuser by watching how you act towards his dad.

I agree with others, that no matter how vehement he is, he is extremely unlikely to keep up contact if he is not interested in your son now. I thought my ex would fight me for everything. I just didn't fight him - I didn't make him go to court, I said OK, you can see him when you like, just let me know. I let him go. (I did go slow on the time - no overnights until he was older/more used to going). I asked for maintenance, but I didn't chase it when he stopped paying. I very quickly realised not to comment when he sent him back with things he knew would bother me (like undiluted fruit shoot/ribena, back when they were about 50% sugar! At 1yo!) and although he still did these things it obviously got boring for him. Every weekend turned into every other weekend turned into one in four... one in twelve... eventually he just disappeared and never contacted us again. I had to contact him 8 years later to get a signature for an emergency passport.

I'm not saying this wasn't hard at the time. There were all sorts of rumours that he was doing drugs and god knows what around him. I didn't know where he lived half the time. He had a seriously unstable girlfriend at one point who was also known for drugs and whose daughter sadly was taken off her because she wasn't caring for her adequately. It wasn't a nice feeling to let him go off with them when he couldn't speak for himself and tell me what was happening while he was there. Sometimes he would come back and vomit all night which was really scary. (I think too much sugary food). But it was 5 hours once a week (and very soon once every few weeks) - realistically there was not a huge amount that could happen within that time, and it was definitely, absolutely better than living with the constant drip drip drip harm that he was causing. (DS1 is 12 now and perfectly fine. Not even really interested in his dad.)

Your son is very very little and I don't think it's likely that his dad is going to gain enough loyalty with him to turn him against you. It can happen, but IME it's unlikely. This kind of thing tends to happen more often when people split up later and the kids are older and a dynamic has already been established where Mum is the boring rule enforcer and Dad is the fun, lax, game console playing, junk food serving one. When they're toddlers that kind of thing isn't appealing from Dad, it's just chaotic and unsettling. They're also harder work at that age, so the dads get bored more quickly, as soon as they realise they can't use the DC to hurt YOU. It does take some practice. You need some stoic girlfriends to bitch at about him in private. You just practice being total grey rock towards him as though nothing he ever does could be shocking or even vaguely annoying, just no emotional reaction at all. "OK, see you next week." I absolutely promise you, he will find another victim to dramatise and grow bored of tormenting you.

My mother stayed and I will never thank her for it. There was a constant atmosphere in the home, I was constantly uncomfortable and unhappy, just waiting for the next outburst. Then there were all the arguments they thought I didn't hear.

I would have loved 50% of the time spent in a happy home and as soon as I could have, would have declined going to see my dad anyway.

Do you know how much physical, long term damage it does to the human body to be born into and spend every day of one's childhood in an abusive environment?

What have you done to document his mistreatment of your baby son?

What have you done to stop him being physically abusive with your son?

What professional advice have you taken on protecting him?

Which professional told you documenting the abuse and seeking help would not matter? (Because "I feel it wouldn't matter" is a really shit basis for such a monumental decision).

What professional advice have you taken on what would happen after leaving?

What research have you actually done on developmental trauma?

What research have you done on the damage caused to a developing child's body from the elevated cortisol levels this environment is causing?

He will never be protected while you force him to spend 100% of his time living with abuse.

You protest that on the one hand if you leave this abuser your son will be with him 50% of the time but then simultaneously claim he would actually be with family members not the abuser. So which is your argument? That he'll be with an abuser or that you don't like the family members who'd be caring for him and you're looking for excuses to stay?

Or are you just clutching at straws to find an excuse not to take the scary step of leaving so will just keep coming up with obstacles and "reasons"?

If you are afraid you don't have the skills to counterbalance other people's influence, what guidance or support have you sought?

If you are worried about hypothetical parental alienation one day in the distant future, what support or advice have you taken?

If you are worried that "up to 50%" of time spent with this man will damage your child, why are you suggesting that 100% of his time with this man (and no safe place to ever retreat to) will be less damaging? How have you reconciled that illogical statement in your mind?

What conversations have you actually had with professionals rather than reacting to your emotions? ( "I fear ..." , "I feel..." ).

Be honest with yourself. So many times women say that they "have to" stay "for" the child but really it's not for the child, it's because they don't want to leave or are too afraid to leave and are using the child as an excuse to justify their choice.

The thread of your title is revealing. This isn't about you or whether or not you can "stick it out".

It's about whether or not you force your child to live in an abusive home. Whether or not your child gets to have a home where he can truly feel safe and relaxed.

He doesn't have the luxury of weighing up whether or not he wants to try and "stick out" the abuse.

You definitely need sound legal advice.
Parental alienation is a real thing and if did start to happen when your son is older, the courts will deal with it.

You forget your son has you. To teach him that adults have agency in this situation, to teach him how to process his emotions, how to relate to people, how to look after his own needs as he grows up.