The normalisation of OnlyFans and porn

[mistea]

I graduated from uni about 5 years ago, and still keep in touch with my course mates via a WhatsApp group chat. Recently, one of them was asking if anyone knew of any openings in our field, someone suggested that she open an OnlyFans account, and basically everyone else (it was a very male-dominated course) chimed in about how that was a great idea and that they had friends who did that and made 5+ figures a month.

Fair play but I personally know of a friend who went down that route, made a decent amount in the first few months, only to be pushed to show her face and do more and more extreme acts to retain her subscribers who all ended up leaving anyway. She has now quit but her videos are stuck on free porn sites and reposted on forums from time to time. Her case isn't a rare one.

Is it just the people I surround myself with? Or is this really how the world is today? After my last relationship broke down because of a violent porn 'addiction' on my exDP's part I feel just feel like it's all hopeless now.

@Soccermom1 Fair enough, but the whole Live industry is poisonous. It spreads the idea that regular women, even teenage girls will do anything for you if they have a webcam and you give them money.

@soccormom1
Just to clarify why I’m saying your giving the finger !
Telling our girls that taking your clothes off for men = empowerment is a huge lie . iTS NOT empowerment at all . It’s just another form of women continuing to be judged on their appearance and what they offer sexually to men . It means having women’s true qualities and contributions diminished and ignored by society . Something that’s been happening forever
Do you have daughters I’m assuming you would be fine with them doing the same . So I’ll ask what you would advise them in terms of if they are simply not getting any business online because men don’t ‘deem’ them worthy or attractive enough ? How will you help them feel empowered or confident having been raised by a mother who believes confidence comes from men wanting you on the internet . Kids are incredibly perceptive and pick up on parents attitudes

But soccer mum this thread isn't about you.

It's about a woman who is in a group chat with her old uni mates who she studied maths and computer science with.

Going to that 'network' and the men suggesting she gets naked on the internet for money.

These people are all graduates of that subject. OP has just said many working overseas etc so I'm guessing successful.

The point is deeper than face surface.

1. They don't say no I don't know any dev jobs going but I'll keep an eye out. They say. Why not only fans?

1. IT is very male heavy. Women have a difficult enough time. Even the lovely ones are.. well it's a blokes shop. I've worked in some different blokes shops. You have to work to get taken seriously. All the fucking time

1. They have disrespected her. Not because taking your clothes off is inherently bad. But because she asked for an IT job and they said take your clothes off. They would never say that to a man. They would look out for an IT job for him

1. This is the sort of thing that drives women out of stem

That is the point of the thread.

If some people have gone into only fans etc and it's been good, fine. This woman was looking for a job in maths or IT.

And as for the oh it's really common amongst 15-16 yo and they're making hard cash and that's the norm... I mean... A. It's not true that its standard they're all at it and B that is illegal, child sexual exploitation, illegal images. Yay 17k? No. Fuck that.

I'm sorry but those replies are ridiculous. Firstly you're shaming women who do this to make a bit of extra money which isn't ok. Unfortunately a lot of the women commenting on how seedy and disgusting it is have probably never had to worry about living paycheck to paycheck so it's easy to look down on women who don't have that luxury.

I also think it's a massive mistake to assume it's men who put pressure on us to look a certain way. Obviously there is truth in that but the amount of times I'd grumble when friends at work were reading there awful women's magazines where they're highlighting such and such celebrity has cellulite or a tiny bit of fat, we as women put enormous pressure on ourselves to look stick thin! The funny thing is? Doing the adult stuff I've actually realized a lot of these guys like a bigger woman, don't mind big thighs etc and so yes it's helped me be far more body positive than reading this trash from other women about how disgusting it is that we have cellulite or flab!
I think every mother wants their daughters to have careers and to do well for themselves. But if they're adults and decide to do something similar then I wouldn't tell them they're disgusting, no. Or shame them. And to reiterate I don't do porn, I sell sexy photos without showing my face, and lots of feet photos. I don't meet anyone, don't do porn. Don't generalize that's it all porn or prostitution because it's clearly not.

@gannett

The sex worker argument always gets too caught up in binaries - empowered businesswomen at one end, trafficked victims at the other.

I would recommend the book Revolting Prostitutes, written by two sex workers, which really brings home the fact that if you care about women's safety then you have to listen to sex workers when they campaign for their own rights (and yes, this means legalisation).

The authors don't call sex work empowering and make it clear that's not the point - it's simply a job, and it's not the only job that has risks or that some might find unsavoury. Again how unsavoury you find it is not the point - sex workers exist no matter how much you turn your nose up, and as such they deserve protections and rights like any other worker.

As for the reasons people do it, the book is also very good at making the point that choice is a matter of degrees. Not every woman has the total freedom to have her dream job, particularly not when you factor in those fleeing abuse, those who have to factor in childcare and those who are unable to work because of many country's hostile immigration systems.

So if you don't want women to choose sex work, you need to be fighting a capitalist system in which sex work - for a huge variety of reasons - is the best option for some women. That means fighting against the current immigration system, for a better welfare system, for workers' rights all round, and more.

I’m gonna buy that book. It sounds really interesting and the points you’ve made make such sense.

Often subject like this are really polarising when in reality there is so much complexity.

@Soccermom1

I'm sorry but those replies are ridiculous. Firstly you're shaming women who do this to make a bit of extra money which isn't ok. Unfortunately a lot of the women commenting on how seedy and disgusting it is have probably never had to worry about living paycheck to paycheck so it's easy to look down on women who don't have that luxury.

I also think it's a massive mistake to assume it's men who put pressure on us to look a certain way. Obviously there is truth in that but the amount of times I'd grumble when friends at work were reading there awful women's magazines where they're highlighting such and such celebrity has cellulite or a tiny bit of fat, we as women put enormous pressure on ourselves to look stick thin! The funny thing is? Doing the adult stuff I've actually realized a lot of these guys like a bigger woman, don't mind big thighs etc and so yes it's helped me be far more body positive than reading this trash from other women about how disgusting it is that we have cellulite or flab!
I think every mother wants their daughters to have careers and to do well for themselves. But if they're adults and decide to do something similar then I wouldn't tell them they're disgusting, no. Or shame them. And to reiterate I don't do porn, I sell sexy photos without showing my face, and lots of feet photos. I don't meet anyone, don't do porn. Don't generalize that's it all porn or prostitution because it's clearly not.

No Soccormom no one has shamed women who do this anymore than you have shamed women who don’t . You are the one making assumptions . Perhaps you should not be so quick to assume that others here havnt had direct experience with the sex industry and know it’s darker side Also Many , if not most women have also been without pay heck and often with several children to feed Yea it is men who body shame women most . Yoh need to spend more time here and else where in women’s spaces reading women’s experiences if you believe otherwise . Yes some men might like some fat then the next click they might like some thin then the next click some talk then short then large breast then small then Swedish woman then Japanese . The whole point is , the industry teach Thag women are commodities and that no one woman is EVER good enough . Yoh seem to have a problem understanding what is wrong with breaking women. Down into bite sized chunks like in a butchers window and continuously feeding men that they can have a continuous men and how this leads to expectations with the women they are with You wernt asked whether you’d shame your daughters if the chose the same path. I’d certainly hope you wouldn’t . You were asked how you would tell them female empowerment is gained when they have been raised by a mother who has told us all here that it’s gained through selling photos for men to masterbate to ? I notice you still have not answered that .

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No @Soccermom1 this isn't about shaming women doing this, and I don't see posters doing that. It's about the hideous double standard as described above
But because she asked for an IT job and they said take your clothes off. They would never say that to a man.
It's not a free choice if someone who doesn't want to do it is told they should be more broad minded, is being too picky, is just annoyed because they're not hot enough. That's not women causing that. It's men. The line that women are the intolerant ones here shaming other women and making this a problem just doesn't fly.

When have I advocating telling daughter's that female empowerment is gained through selling sexy photos? I was simply talking about my own personal experience and that it helped financially and that I also enjoyed it in so much as it helped boost my confidence at a time when I needed it! I'm not saying that's the only way we as women can feel empowered or that I would teach young women that that's the path do go down to feel empowered. I hope that's self evident to most mothers.
Sorry I simply don't agree on the body image, at least in those simplified terms. We as women can be our harshest critics and as say again the fact that these trashy magazines that shame celebrities for having cellulite and that sadly millions of women read and then think they have to look like a stick insect, we cannot lay the blame at least on this point at men shaming women. Of course they do to in other ways but I'd be equally concerned if my daughters were reading that rubbish and starving themselves. If anything working on these sites has made me more comfortable that I'm not skinny, not thin, and that TO ME has been massive in regards to my own body image.

I've already said in regards to this woman and her career it's not ok for men to suggest onlyfans to her. I'm just saying don't put us all in the same category as these sites can also be beneficial and I gave a personal example along with the girls in my online group. It's not either all bad or all good. It depends on the individual and their situation

@soccermom1 I think you need to read up on the term 'patriarchy' before you just claim that women perpetuate these issues via magazines, etc.

It's a system of oppression from the top down. It begins with men, male entitlement, male views on women's bodies, and men's gratification, both sexual and otherwise.

Just because women read trashy magazines and complain about cellulite doesn't mean it begins with them.

But that's the whole point of the thread.

It's about the maths woman.

All the posts saying

Why are you shaming
It gave me a boost
All the girls from year 11 up are doing in I know one who made 17k ( year 11 is 15-16)

Why?

Why the need to talk about things that have nothing to do with the OP?

A woman with a degree in maths and computer science asked her university network if they knew of any opportunities.
The men. Who knew her, had spent years studying with her. Who work in that field all around the world.
Said what about only fans? And when she said(sounds like) erm thanks but no thanks. They told her she was doing herself a disservice.

That is just out and out shitty fucking bollocks. Insulting to her. And that's not to say that it's not good to do that work if you are looking for it. But in that context. It's a hard fucking no. How can it not be?

And yet we have all these posts ignoring the OP saying there's nothing wrong with it, don't shame, women are awful to other women (?), 15 yo are all doing this (no they really fucking aren't) and I know one whose saved thousands for college (why is it always for college :/).

The baseline for me is. I've been offered cash for sex more than once. When I was young. I was not a very happy teen. Slightly different night. Maybe I'd have said yes. Why not? Easy money

My friend had sex with 2 men when she was 15 for a small amount of drugs. We didn't think much of it at the time.

When it comes to prostitution etc. Mostly it's men who suggest. Men who offer. Men who ask. Men who exploit. And of course men are the customers.

These men randomly tried quite hard to persuade a woman they knew well who was looking for an IT role. That she should go on only friends.

Nah. It's shit. These threads always attract posts unrelated to the OP calling women who say nah that's shit. Prudes/ nasty/ shaming and all the rest of it.

No. For me in general it's, I could have gone down that road. It's empathy. We all know what men can be like. It's a dangerous business.

So I don't get it. Why do these threads attract this massive push that it's all aok, awesome for women (professional women and 15 yo girls)... Every single sodding time.

@soccermon1 Pornland by Gail Dines is a fabulous (if that's the right term for it) book. I'd highly recommend it, even though it's now a few years out of date. It might seriously help you understand the issues with a qualified woman being told by her peers to take up sex work, instead of offering advice for work in her field.

It's the kind of thing that seems like great idea when you're young, then you get older and realise that actually, no, it's not an equal transaction on any level and that most men truly disrespect and even hate women.

I find it deeply sad. I also did this kind of thing when I was younger and it's just so sick making to me now.

It's not empowering. Especially not when you figure out the dynamic behind it. The men get off on your humilition. They will also wank themselves off to literally anything. It doesn't matter what you look like.

Every single woman I know who did that kind of stuff was either struggling with mental health, an addict or extremely low on confidence.

@Soccermom1

When have I advocating telling daughter's that female empowerment is gained through selling sexy photos? I was simply talking about my own personal experience and that it helped financially and that I also enjoyed it in so much as it helped boost my confidence at a time when I needed it! I'm not saying that's the only way we as women can feel empowered or that I would teach young women that that's the path do go down to feel empowered. I hope that's self evident to most mothers. Sorry I simply don't agree on the body image, at least in those simplified terms. We as women can be our harshest critics and as say again the fact that these trashy magazines that shame celebrities for having cellulite and that sadly millions of women read and then think they have to look like a stick insect, we cannot lay the blame at least on this point at men shaming women. Of course they do to in other ways but I'd be equally concerned if my daughters were reading that rubbish and starving themselves. If anything working on these sites has made me more comfortable that I'm not skinny, not thin, and that TO ME has been massive in regards to my own body image.

Soccormom, have you done much research on the harms of pornography . Have you read professor Gails Dines work ? I will respectfully leave my discussion with you there as I think you seem completely unwilling to consider you could be contributing to the mysogyny in society and to an environment that leads to men telling women to go on onlyfans when they ask about work opportunities .

I'm saying I agree with the original post! It wasn't ok for them to suggest that. In that context it was totally wrong and plain stupid to suggest that to her.

On the issues of misogyny and women like me being part of the problem and patriarchy, it's all far too simplistic and it's a lot more complicated than that. We as women are more than capable of shaming other women and putting impossible standards on other women. I remember high school and having worked in mainly female dominated careers believe me I know what we're capable of doing! Are there awful men out there? Yes! But it's all very simplistic and like I said a lot more complicated.

What I think is a big issue here is that we're talking about porn and women being exploited but ignoring the fact that with the internet and these types of pay sites in a lot of cases times have moved on. I mean this with respect but unless you've delved into the business in recent years you're unaware of these changes. Instead of being exploited I could point you to hundreds of examples of women owning the content, of making their own products and selling them, being in control of what they show and what they don't show. I follow quite a few of these women who have clipstores and they're making a hell of a lot of money and are in control of their product. They aren't working for some one else, and I was nowhere in that upper tier but I admire them for what they do. And we're not talking porn here, the girls who I can think of off the top of my head don't even get naked. Times have moved on, in this certain sector anyway, I'm not talking general porn or prostitution, I'm talking pay sites or clipsites. If someone chooses to do this for a career then I've no problem with that as long as it's their choice! I had very strict rules and there was no point where I felt bullied into something or did something that I regretted. If we want to talk about the porn industry or exploitation then I'm happy to have a conversation about that. But what many seem to be missing is that this is women taking back control and making their own money and setting the rules eith consenting adults and for me and the women I talk to this has been a positive, I'm aware that this isn't always the case but I'm talking from my own experience, that's all.

Woah there . I was going to leave it there but this Has to be said
There ARE women here who have had involvement in the industry in recent years and are saying it IS porn . There ARE women here who have had recent experience in the industry and are telling you it’s damaging . And there are also women telling you their experiences as partners of consumers of these services
Couldn’t agree more that mysogyny is not simplistic . Read Gail Dines work much of it is online
. You owe it to yourself to look beyond your own limited experience before advocating this as empowering work. And you owe it to future you g girls who may read your words and base their decisions on the words of you or people like you

I guess the thing is soccormom1, Many people will consider services of any type that are sold to men for men to masterbate over or for sexual excitement are often considered porn . Even sites where only feet ( which are not technicically pornographic are often considered porn sites
Many would see commodifying ones body or images as a sexual object for men’s sexual pleasure then that is porn . I think it’s reasonable to NOT tell you g girls that selling images of themselves for men to get off too is empowering

Just to be clear here I am not advocating that we should tell young girls that they should be selling photos or anything of the sort is empowering. Just so we're not misundersrsnding each other here. I'm talking of adult women who are in the position to choose for themselves if they want to do this to make a bit of money etc. I'm in no way encouraging young girls to do this as a career.

I'm also aware that there are many women who used to work in the industry who have had bad experiences and men who get addicted and it causes problems in relationships. I'm not arguing that at all. I'm just saying there are also opposite stories, stories like mine where I was perfectly happy doing what I was doing, not just because of the money but also for my body image. And from our group of sellers it's very similar feedback.

I understand why people class everything as porn, but I have very definite ideas of what porn is, and selling foot photos for example I don't class as porn. If the definition is porn is whatever men masturbate over then that would be a pretty long list! And are we all guilty seeing as many women now watch porn? It's not like it was years ago, I watch porn, my gfs watch porn, how does that fit in to the narrative that porn is just for men and a way of men oppressing women when women watch porn too.

They said they know someone who made +5K --- well, sure they did. Is anyone going to say I tried OnlyFans and made £50 from an old geezer in Southend.
Boys/men were talking big about sex when I was I'm ny teens 50 years ago. Anyone seen the Inbetweeners?
I'm not sure it matters how many say it's the norm -we'll never know for sure. Young girls need good education to not believe everything they're told.

Soccormom1
‘If the definition is porn is whatever men masturbate over then that would be a pretty long list!’

Please don’t twist my words . You missed out the part about SELLING this to men specifically for their sexual and masterbation purposes this commodifying women
At no time did I say the definition of porn was what men masterbate to I said it was often classed as selling women’s bodies and images to men for the purposes of sexual gratification
Two completely different things

I think it's very concerning the culture now, and the normalising of sex work. These only fan accounts may bite many young women in the future when they seek professional jobs etc.

Also social media can switch so quickly, in a year time only fans may have an scandal and be looked down upon as seedy. You never know.

Women don't help themselves though.

The headmaster at my primary school told me I had horrible legs and knobbly knees. It stayed with me for life. I never show my legs. Never wear shorts. Never go out without tights / the thicker the better!

The more I think about it the more angry I get! What a dreadful inappropriate thing to say to an 8 year old girl.

Certainly doesn't help when the phrase 'thot to pump and dump' is increasingly being used to describe women whom have been 'exposed' as being on only fans by the very men that are subscribed to them.

I’m old so I had to look that up- ‘THOT’ and
‘Pump and dump’. Vile. And Jesus- the ‘fans’ doing witch-hunts on the women selling them their images to expose their identities in real life. How massively fucked up is that. Bet the ‘fans’ identities are perfectly safe..

What protections are there for children and women doing this around their identity being exposed in real life, if this is all such normal legit work to get into? We all know there’s nothing to support them and the emotional, social and job prospect consequences can be permanent.

This transaction is totally rooted in violence against women and children, it’s not ‘a job’, even if it’s something that (some of) those who do it might get some money for.

It is absolutely terrifying how some women and children are just viewed as less important than others and by their actions become expendable and they deserve what they get.. the age old ‘othering’ and blaming of victims.

These are the same age old misogynistic attitudes towards prostituted women and children that patriarchy has promoted for centuries in order to serve men’s wants. Now magnified a million times over by social media and webcams and violence against women and girls-commercialising web platforms like Only Fans.

This whole thread has been eye opening and in a horrible way. Porn culture is so widespread and fucked up.

The ‘live’ thing- normalising expectations from men that any normal woman they might know can be bought and what she’ll do for them only depends on how much money they’ll give her.
It’s dangerous for ALL women and children to have millions of men being encouraged to think of them as a group in that objectified way.

It’s dangerous for the women and children who are doing it individually if they get named and shamed for what they are doing. And the effects on them of doing it can be very serious including PTSD and so on. It’s not ‘shaming’ anyone to point any of that out. It’s the truth.

A few links here if people want to read more objectnow.org/pornography/

@Soccermom1

I'm sorry but those replies are ridiculous. Firstly you're shaming women who do this to make a bit of extra money which isn't ok. Unfortunately a lot of the women commenting on how seedy and disgusting it is have probably never had to worry about living paycheck to paycheck so it's easy to look down on women who don't have that luxury.

I also think it's a massive mistake to assume it's men who put pressure on us to look a certain way. Obviously there is truth in that but the amount of times I'd grumble when friends at work were reading there awful women's magazines where they're highlighting such and such celebrity has cellulite or a tiny bit of fat, we as women put enormous pressure on ourselves to look stick thin! The funny thing is? Doing the adult stuff I've actually realized a lot of these guys like a bigger woman, don't mind big thighs etc and so yes it's helped me be far more body positive than reading this trash from other women about how disgusting it is that we have cellulite or flab!
I think every mother wants their daughters to have careers and to do well for themselves. But if they're adults and decide to do something similar then I wouldn't tell them they're disgusting, no. Or shame them. And to reiterate I don't do porn, I sell sexy photos without showing my face, and lots of feet photos. I don't meet anyone, don't do porn. Don't generalize that's it all porn or prostitution because it's clearly not.

I think you sound very naïve. These men who paid to see you don't do it because they think you're hot, they do it because they enjoy the power it gives them, and they get off on the fact that you're willing to, in their eyes, degrade yourself in exchange for money. A lot of men will say they are big fans of porn for example, they have no problem with it, it's liberating for women. Then ask them if they'd have a relationship with a woman who has made porn and they'll say of course not, I've seen the films, she disgusts me.

The transaction is not really about women selling their attractiveness. It's about them selling their humiliation.