The normalisation of OnlyFans and porn

[mistea]

I graduated from uni about 5 years ago, and still keep in touch with my course mates via a WhatsApp group chat. Recently, one of them was asking if anyone knew of any openings in our field, someone suggested that she open an OnlyFans account, and basically everyone else (it was a very male-dominated course) chimed in about how that was a great idea and that they had friends who did that and made 5+ figures a month.

Fair play but I personally know of a friend who went down that route, made a decent amount in the first few months, only to be pushed to show her face and do more and more extreme acts to retain her subscribers who all ended up leaving anyway. She has now quit but her videos are stuck on free porn sites and reposted on forums from time to time. Her case isn't a rare one.

Is it just the people I surround myself with? Or is this really how the world is today? After my last relationship broke down because of a violent porn 'addiction' on my exDP's part I feel just feel like it's all hopeless now.

@Soccermom1

I thought it would be interesting to Google feminism and OF and it's just a minefield, ranging from it's sex positive vs sex negative to it's empowering to women vs it's misogyny etc, I wasn't exactly expecting a consensus but if we can't agree on the basics what hope is there if we're talking about fundamentally changing society

I wanted to add that throughout history there were also times Where many people thought smoking was fine or even healthy and others didn’t Where many people agreed that beating ones wife was fine so long as you didn’t leave bruises or use a stick thicker than ones thumb ( hence the saying rule of thumb ) and others didn’t Where many thought the earth was flat and others did not

In All of these cases the research supported those who challenged that existing norms and behaviours and said they are not ok and they are harmful
Those who argued that smoking in favour of keeping the status quo were often simply uneducated on the matter and or refused to actually delve into the actual data of statistics ( or it may have been unavailable to them given the time in history )
Nowadays people don’t have that excuse . The information on the harms of this stuff is well documented by REPUTABLE instititions and professionals . Yet repeatedly we see people , frequently men , and sometimes women , insist it’s fine and harmless because they enjoy it or gain some benefit from it
When you make a statement like we can’t talk about changing society because there are fundamentally different opinions , it’s worthwhile considering how well informed opinions on each side are . Are they coming simply from desire to benefit from something or are they coming from considered analysis of the data . Have you delved into the statistics presented by the researchers yourself? Do you think others who are supposedly offfering an opinion that it’s a positive or harmless thing are informed on the research ?
Are both sides presenting equally weighted arguments . Opinions at the end of the day mean little if that actual reality tells us otherwise as shown in the examples above
And yea we absolutely need to keep pushing to change society of women are ever to be considered as equal to men and not things to be purchased for sexual use
Teaching our kids these things is the very beginning

Just in response to the first part

The big tobacco companies actively suppressed research for years. It was a massive scandal. Driver = money.

Men having power over women throughout history and all over the world has been chipped away in some countries but the fundamentals run deep and are subtly and not so subtly embedded in all societies.

The question always needs to be who benefits.

Who really benefits from having a stream of different young women online that you can pay to do xyz for you?

@NiceGerbil

Just in response to the first part

The big tobacco companies actively suppressed research for years. It was a massive scandal. Driver = money.

Men having power over women throughout history and all over the world has been chipped away in some countries but the fundamentals run deep and are subtly and not so subtly embedded in all societies.

The question always needs to be who benefits.

Who really benefits from having a stream of different young women online that you can pay to do xyz for you?

Yes . Do women benefit ? I’m not talking to individual woman who may temporarily think she is benefitting from some money whilst men think her looks or product or humiliation is up to par and enough to excite them . Very very few of these porn stars make enough of an income to support them into old age . The average career is very very short then they are discarded . So tell me how are women empowered , how do they beefier ? I’m talking about long term . In the way women are treated . Treated in society , the workplace , relationships . How do we benefit from being seen as walking body parts put on the planet for men to pay to get off on ? Men benefit , companies benefit .... but women pay a huge price

Sorry I should have explained it better, I meant disagreement amongst feminists on the issue, I was making sure to read articles from feminists as to their take on whether these sites are pro or anti and was finding a split. I suppose the argument is that before the internet and such sites women were participating and getting paid initially but it was predominantly men who were getting rich off it. Now there's no need for the middle man and women can make their own content and make money directly. Whether we think it's a good thing for society is a different point, maybe that's why there's the confusion of empowerment and maybe it's talked about in women making their own money and own choices rather than saying porn is inherently bad.
But you're right it's a short career for most, but in my own example it was just a means to and end and I wasn't wanting to or under the illusion of making a career out of it.
One thing I struggle with though having been in that world is the idea that's it's all men exploring women, that's not to say it's not of course in many cases but the whole world of online domination where these women are making stupid amounts of money and yes to some degree at least initially you could say the men are asking for this and seeking it out but the women I was following (not that I did it myself because I'm not dominant at all) but they'd explain methods and how they groomed these guys who clearly had self worth issues to begin with or even just fetish tendencies, and they'd just reinforce these problems and bleed these guys dry, blackmail fetish seemed to be popular too which is basically extortion, the power play is completely flipped on it's side. And it's a massive part of the online sex world, and I'm assuming not many women even know about it. They don't even have the ability to walk away from it if they have a 'mistress' who could ruin their lives at the click of a button. And it's far more widespread that you'd believe. It's not really a niche market, with the clip sites and Twitter etc is far more common than you'd think. And what's worse it's not even about the money on it's own, these online dommes seem to get a kick out of it.
I think what I was doing ie selling tights and shoes and photos of feet etc is pretty harmless compared to that stuff.

I have to agree with pps and the expectations created by porn when it comes to OLD. A significant majority of questions im asked in the first few messages (by guys of all ages) are :
Do I like anal?
Do I like threesomes (&always will I be able to recruit a female friend for this, never a male!).
Do I like choking (again, if it is done in an unsafe position and without prior negotiations and consent is potentially very dangerous and its degrading, funnily enough must of them attend into being choked themselves!).

And increasingly there are questions about foursomes and I had a guy really trying to gaslight me that fisting is totally normal nowadays and most women like it!! (despite the fact that it would be ME running the risk of injury not the guy!). Also incest porn (the fact that incest porn might be triggering for many people who were victims of csa falls on deaf ears 🙄)

Now I just block and sometimes report, but earlier when I replied that I'd like to start off with good old fashioned 'vanilla' sex where both partners are satisfied in a safe and respectful way, and get that part right first, before I would even consider going on to anything else usually didn't go down well!!

@thegreysheep

I have to agree with pps and the expectations created by porn when it comes to OLD. A significant majority of questions im asked in the first few messages (by guys of all ages) are : Do I like anal? Do I like threesomes (&always will I be able to recruit a female friend for this, never a male!). Do I like choking (again, if it is done in an unsafe position and without prior negotiations and consent is potentially very dangerous and its degrading, funnily enough must of them attend into being choked themselves!).

And increasingly there are questions about foursomes and I had a guy really trying to gaslight me that fisting is totally normal nowadays and most women like it!! (despite the fact that it would be ME running the risk of injury not the guy!). Also incest porn (the fact that incest porn might be triggering for many people who were victims of csa falls on deaf ears 🙄)

Now I just block and sometimes report, but earlier when I replied that I'd like to start off with good old fashioned 'vanilla' sex where both partners are satisfied in a safe and respectful way, and get that part right first, before I would even consider going on to anything else usually didn't go down well!!

So in the majority of your exchanges with men on OLD, in the first three messages they ask if you like anal, choking or threesomes? Are you dating on fetlife or something?

Nope, mainstream ones like Tinder, POF. And work a normal not sexual profile that says I'm looking for a long term relationship.
Around 60% of exchanges fall into this category.
That's not even mentioning requests for pictures etc.

If you don’t believe @thegreysheep you can read though some of the OLD threads here on MN.

This is the new normal 🙁

Yep @DedlyMedally, I'm talking from my personal experience and also from friends who are also doing OLD, as well as going by the Old threads on here it does unfortunately seem to be the new normal (normalised by porn & Of) as @IM0GEN says.

And don't even get me started about pressure (which lockdown has intensified) from complete strangers to allow them to just rock up to my home without a prior meet or phone call, and the inability to understand why this might be a security /safety concern for me.

@IM0GEN

If you don’t believe *@thegreysheep* you can read though some of the OLD threads here on MN.

This is the new normal 🙁

This was my experience as well. I essentially got together with my DP because he was the only man I liked the look of who didn’t go straight in with the depraved stuff.

@thegreysheep

And don't even get me started about pressure (which lockdown has intensified) from complete strangers to allow them to just rock up to my home without a prior meet or phone call, and the inability to understand why this might be a security /safety concern for me.

I found this as well. Another creepy side of it was that if I didn’t reply positively straight away, quite a few men would start to ring me, over and over again - even when I firmly stated I was working etc. I once came off a work call to find a dozen missed calls from the same guy, whom I hadn’t even met yet (and never did). I really think a significant number of men view OLD as a dial-a-prostitute service - just without the payment. They have no concept of us as human beings with boundaries.

that does sound unpleasant.
I wonder if the switch from the traditional long-form dating site to the gamified swipe system plays into that.
I have always thought the idea of tinder gold and it's demography-based pricing system was a bit suspect.
Women don't really need to pay to get more matches so the subtext is that if you're a man and give tinder more money, your chances of obtaining sex with someone (anyone) will go up.

Yes @Roberta268 I came under quote sustained pressure from one person in particular, expecting video call sex and sexy photos while I was in the middle of my working day and not taking no for an answer, he was also the guy who was trying to normalise fisting. But if HE was working, he wouldn't be disturbed by phone.

And another two guys, separately, tried to push for initial meets at my home. After negotiations on the phone both seemed to agree with my point of view why that would be unsafe for me (and aside from covid or even the fact that what if we don't fancy each!!).

On both occasions then at the last minute, both tried to move the goalposts by saying 'actually lets scrap our plans for a SD walk, I'm just going to get a bottle of wine and come to yours instead' (thankfully neither knew where I lived!) thinking that as it was so last minute I'd just go, um- OK🤔

So I cancelled and then blocked both, realised that my reasoned arguments made in good faith had fallen on deaf ears, and now don't even bother to get into a dialogue just block as soon as I feel uncomfortable.

just block as soon as I feel uncomfortable.
That is truly the best thing to do. So many creeps and users out there.

I’ve always enjoyed sex in the past but haven’t had sex for nearly 4 years now and probably never will again (I’m 51) and it is absolutely because of the expectations of men now. I don’t want to play out what they’ve seen online. I suppose I am “boring” and “vanilla” and no man wants that. Actually I did meet one guy who was ok with it but it was because he had a really low sex drive bordering on asexual!

I don’t want to swap dirty pics or have phone sex with someone I’ve never even met, or just met once or twice. I don’t want to watch a guy wank on video chat. I don’t want men performing what I deem degrading (Sometimes even harmful) acts on me.None of these things turn me on!

So actually I do think that every woman who sells herself online is contributing to that. Men are fucking stupid tbh! They see these women online and think all women deep down want to be wild and dirty and fulfil all their fantasies.

The last guy I was seeing (pre lockdown)I went to his house one afternoon for a cuppa. My first visit there. I’d been there 10 minutes and he told me he was so turned on (we’d only drunk tea and chatted about normal stuff!) that he needed to go to his room and masturbate!! And he did!! I was actually scared but I’d left my coat and shoes by the front door and would have had to pass his room to get them (it was a flat) and he’d left his room door open and I was scared he might grab me if I tried to run. Especially as he lived on the 4th floor and the light for the communal stairs wasn’t working! I’d probably have fallen and broken my neck! Anyway I made my excuses and left after he came back out but it was horrible. And that isn’t even the worst thing that’s happened to me. It was the final one though. After that I said no more.

@DedlyMedally

that does sound unpleasant. I wonder if the switch from the traditional long-form dating site to the gamified swipe system plays into that. I have always thought the idea of tinder gold and it's demography-based pricing system was a bit suspect. Women don't really need to pay to get more matches so the subtext is that if you're a man and give tinder more money, your chances of obtaining sex with someone (anyone) will go up.

That's an interesting thought. Maybe there's a subconscious element of choosing which women they want, as though these OLD apps allow the user to make a choice or selection from a list of available products, as opposed to actual living humans.

@thegreysheep

Yes *@Roberta268* I came under quote sustained pressure from one person in particular, expecting video call sex and sexy photos while I was in the middle of my working day and not taking no for an answer, he was also the guy who was trying to normalise fisting. But if HE was working, he wouldn't be disturbed by phone.

And another two guys, separately, tried to push for initial meets at my home. After negotiations on the phone both seemed to agree with my point of view why that would be unsafe for me (and aside from covid or even the fact that what if we don't fancy each!!).

On both occasions then at the last minute, both tried to move the goalposts by saying 'actually lets scrap our plans for a SD walk, I'm just going to get a bottle of wine and come to yours instead' (thankfully neither knew where I lived!) thinking that as it was so last minute I'd just go, um- OK🤔

So I cancelled and then blocked both, realised that my reasoned arguments made in good faith had fallen on deaf ears, and now don't even bother to get into a dialogue just block as soon as I feel uncomfortable.

I think blocking at the first sign of trouble is the only sensible and (reasonably) safe way to proceed. No decent man will behave like this early on.

That sounds so scary @Meruem and must have been so unexpected given the context (tea and a chat!) and you did what was best to do to stay safe and get out of there.

Yes @DedlyMedally it often does feel like a game with you being assessed with what you're willing to offer to be 'chosen' , rather than two people getting to know each other.

I guess the scariest part is that where previously this sort of behaviour would be more largely confined to fetish/swingers websites where people primarily go for primarily sexual based experiences (& no judgement there AT ALL) & even there the lack of respect and consideration for safety would still be unacceptable, now it is becoming common place on 'mainstream' sites where people are going for relationships, dating, friends not just hookups. To get to know each other as actual living humans, as @MaudTheInvincible said.

And the amount of gaslighting and pressure to believe that it's 'normal' and you're the prude for rejecting unwanted sexual advances even if virtual, its so unpleasant.

So as to stay relevant to the thread, I guess my contribution was to make the point that porn and OF further normalises this type of behaviour on the mainstream, if virtual, world of dating and relationships. It just means it's yet another area that we have to contend with sexual micro and not so micro aggressions, as well as on streets, in bars and clubs etc.

@soccormom , ok so you seem to get that much of what is happening is exploitation and we know that I in three accounts is underage so let’s put that aside and talk about ONLY those who are getting one over these guys who have self esteem
Issues as you say ( btw I don’t deny this happens I know that there are men like this but it’s the minority of what’s happening on these sites and does not mean these men using these services are not still causing harm to their wives partners and women In general ) . ....even IF their are some women who feel they are the ones with the upper hand as you describe in the set up above , what percentage of wome do you feel that is compared to the many many many who are dealing with the crap that comes as a result of the normalisation of this stuff
You are perhaps referring to . 00001 % of women who have accounts and are having the ‘ upper hand ‘ over some loser as opposed to the other 99 plus percent of women in the world who are paying a heavy price

@countingthebeat Don't misunderstand me I know what you're saying. I suppose I'm conflicted about it because of my own experience and what I've seen, or learnt. And I feel slightly hypocritical as we all should if women are watching porn too, not to the same degree as men and possibly not the same sort of porn or not extreme porn but if what you're saying is accurate then we can't say we're not contributing to the problem too. Are you saying women aren't allowed to watch porn?
I feel uncomfortable because I'm aware we objectify men too. I've read countless threads on here about penis size and why you wouldn't date a guy with a small penis. We're reducing a person to the size of his penis which is what exactly? And what are these men with tiny penises to do seeing as no one wants to date them? In that case alone are we going to say they aren't allowed to watch porn? I feel sorry for guys like that knowing they can never have a proper relationship. One guy who used to buy off me confessed he had a micro penis and had never been in a relationship at the age of 46, that's sad, to me anyway.
I think you'd be surprised regarding the online domination. On my selling site which was primarily just selling vanilla stuff I'd say half the girl were offering online domination, financial domination, humiliation sessions. And I know from the woman in our group that was where the real money was. And these women were proud of the fact they were milking these guys dry. Like I say i didn't get involved in that side of things but it's not a niche market and more popular in porn than you'd guess. I think a lot of girls have realized it's a quick way to make good money, regardless of the consequences.

[quote Soccermom1]@countingthebeat Don't misunderstand me I know what you're saying. I suppose I'm conflicted about it because of my own experience and what I've seen, or learnt. And I feel slightly hypocritical as we all should if women are watching porn too, not to the same degree as men and possibly not the same sort of porn or not extreme porn but if what you're saying is accurate then we can't say we're not contributing to the problem too. Are you saying women aren't allowed to watch porn?
I feel uncomfortable because I'm aware we objectify men too. I've read countless threads on here about penis size and why you wouldn't date a guy with a small penis. We're reducing a person to the size of his penis which is what exactly? And what are these men with tiny penises to do seeing as no one wants to date them? In that case alone are we going to say they aren't allowed to watch porn? I feel sorry for guys like that knowing they can never have a proper relationship. One guy who used to buy off me confessed he had a micro penis and had never been in a relationship at the age of 46, that's sad, to me anyway.
I think you'd be surprised regarding the online domination. On my selling site which was primarily just selling vanilla stuff I'd say half the girl were offering online domination, financial domination, humiliation sessions. And I know from the woman in our group that was where the real money was. And these women were proud of the fact they were milking these guys dry. Like I say i didn't get involved in that side of things but it's not a niche market and more popular in porn than you'd guess. I think a lot of girls have realized it's a quick way to make good money, regardless of the consequences.[/quote]
I honestly give up
1 no I never said wine. Do t or can’t watch porn . Those who do are definitely contributing to the problem

1. No I woulldntt be surprised by the online domination . Stop talking as if your some expert talking to women who know nothing about the industry or have no close knowledge of it

3 . No women do not objectify men ANYWHERE near how men objectify women Honestly soccormom of yoh still don’t get it after all that’s been written here by everyone , after all the literature and documented abuse and date by PROFESSIONALS you’re never going to get it

If anyone else had the patience be my guest

By the way soccormom1 do you want to know the actual statistics for men who have micro penises seeing as you bases much of your argument on feeling sorry for the men who have micro penises who are using porn sites . It’s .6 of 1 percent of men . That’s just over half of one percent of men and the out of those men you are referring to those who use porn sites because they are unable to have relationships
Are you actually serious
You’re comparing THAT to the damage done to women daily .... women as a whole .
Your comparing THAT to the abuses of women and girls
Youre comparing THAT to one in three accounts being underage ????
Honestly , seriously ? It would actually be funny if it wasn’t so sad
I honestly cannot read anymore of your responses

@countingthebeat I apologize if I'm not appearing to get it. I'm not saying underage accounts or women who have been exploited in porn or Neanderthal men objectfying women is ok. I hope that's clear now?
I'm talking from my own experience of being in some way involved in the industry, albeit in a small way. But what you're saying is that any woman who watched porn is also guilty of a society problem which I don't agree with when 1 in 3 of us women watch porn, that's an awful lot of us!
Okay maybe not micro penis being that common but let's say small, I used micro because the guy who was buying off me was without doubt micro but are we saying guys who are small and can't be in a relationship can't watch porn? I actually commented on one of the threads where we were taking about never dating guys with small penises and if that's not viewing a person solely as an object for sex based on the size of their genitalia I don't know what is. I actually feel sorry for these men. That doesn't mean I don't feel even more sorry for women who are being forced into porn or trafficked. One doesn't negate the other.
But I don't see a problem if I opened a OF page and sold photos etc to some lonely desperate guy, I see no harm in that. I'm not involved in trafficking or selling under age, why can't I do that as an adult and make that decision without being lambasted that I'm part of some bigger problem which we can do bugger all about? Are we going to ban all porn? Ban anything sexual ie sex scenes in movies? Lingerie. Anything that might excite a man? I don't want to live in a society like Saudi Arabia where I can't leave the house without a guardian in case I excite some random bloke in the street.