I am shocked by so many tales of nasty, controlling, bullying men on here...

[snowleopard]

I know it is very common. I know domestic abuse goes on in many poeple's lives and people often don't realise. But what makes men like this? We hear a lot about how women can grow up with low self-esteem and ending up in abusive relationships... but that couldn't happen if there weren't so many men out there who are prepared to hit, belittle, control and abuse.

I would really like to know what makes men like this in the first place. It's a great truism that domestic abusers can come from any background, social group and walk of life - so what do they have in common? Is there a feature of their upbringing that made them this way - or is it something we can atrribute more to society in general?

Is anyone studying this or does anyone know anything about it or have any ideas? I'm interested in discussing it, but also I have a son - how can we make sure we aren't raising these abusers?

doggiesayswoof - because since the beginning of times women have had a calming and civilising effect on men .

i would love to know how a woman could deflect violance from a man.

if only i had known all i had to do was sit down and shut up! Xdp and i could still be living happily ever after

Ah, now the idea of Woman as self-sacrificing, gentle angel, risking all to tame the wild beast Man. Gently chiding him, showing him the error of his ways, until gradually he begins to see through her sweet, noble example that smashing her round the face for talking on the phone for too long is Wrong. And off they go into the sunset.

What a load of crap. Men, women, parents, siblings, whatever - we're all human, we can all influence each other for good or evil. Whether or not we happen to possess a penis or a vagina makes no difference whatsoever.

"because since the beginning of times women have had a calming and civilising effect on men"

Sources and examples please, Anna.

Here's my tuppence worth. I have known DV. My DP was abused by his first wife (much like HappyDaddy) He says he didnt retaliate but slapped her once when he found out she'd been unfaithful. Once that was over he later married again and 2nd wife had foul temper and he has deep scars where she scratched him, came at him with a carving knife. I dont think he ever hit her but there were an awful lot of slammed doors.
Then me. I got the brunt of all his anger. I left him and went back to my ex, then back to him. No physical DV before this, just irrational black moods I was finding hard to handle.
After I returned he had a peg he could hang all the grievance on and regularly abused me verbally and physically. He thought he had justification to do this because I had lied/cheated. Once he even said "What I did to you was nothing to what you did to me"

He WAS off his head, but like Lisa Lisa I used to challenge him all the time and refuse to accept it was my fault or that he had an excuse to behave that way. I told him to stop punishing me for all the crap other women had given him. I'd say things like "Dont you WANT to be happy? Cos I do." Why did I bother? Because I loved him. Because I knew what it was like to be angry. I've been in relationships where I have been controlling, broken possessions, and uncontrollably angry (I even lashed out once - pre DP - because that man was trying to film up my skirt with a video camera and wouldnt stop)Most of the time I would internalise and self harm.

It was a mess, a car crash, and once I got a place of my own I was able to lay down rules. He isn't abusive any more. He got help and meds for a time. So did I for my issues. He just knows he cant do that any more, and if he did he'd be gone.

My point - even though I knew what made him like this I never saw it as justification for violence or any form of abuse. i thought about what I deserved - which was a respectful, loving relationship without abuse - and told him. He has to give me that or he's gone. His issues are not my problem.
I choose to love him, to be with him, to have him in my house, but I can live without him, that's the big difference how. He chooses to treat me with the love and respect I deserve.

I do agree that respect for each other/taking responsibility for your own actions begins in childhood and good for all you parents for instilling that in your kids.

krang - you obviously adhere to the school of thought that men and women are identical in every way apart from their sexual organs, I definitely don't adhere to that school of thought and there is no point arguing it out... neither of us is going to come round to the other's POV.

Anna888, that's not what Krang said in her very articulate post.

In response to this:

"M&J - so you think that adult men direct violence towards women but adult women are not able to deflect male violence?" do I think I could stop a violent man from attacking me with the force of my charm, calmness and sweetness? Ummm, no.

Watching this descend into a woman v woman argument is actually sadder than reading some of your stories.

Is it any wonder women feel they may not get the support they need when other women on here are questioning them?

Don't be sad, HappyDaddy, have seen it all before from Anna888. She lives in the 1950s. It's lovely there

M&J - you are making the same mistake ie I say things in the general and you restate them in the particular....

i do honestly wonder if maybe Anna888 is a man who feels it is ok, or at best excusable to be aggressive with women.

Yes HD, it's not just woman v woman, it's women v Anna

BearMama. Your story, also is a sad one. Personally, I don't consider myself as abused. My ex was just a stupid, selfish cow.

I keep saying - is there anything women can do collectively to prevent male violence and it gets restated as "When my DH hit me in xxx very particular circumstances, no, there was nothing I could do". Sure.

What can women do????? Together, to stop violence?

mamazon - ffg, I have said masses of times on this thread that violence is never acceptable.

But I'm also interested in finding ways of making society move forward so that there is less violence.

Anna, why should they have to? I think that's the point of the replies you are getting.

Why should it be upto women to teach men to fucking behave themselves and not act like stupid, cowardly idiots?

OK here's what women can do:

bring up their sons not to resort to violence

refuse to spend time with men who resort to violence

Beyond that, it's down to the violen men.

"krang - you obviously adhere to the school of thought that men and women are identical in every way apart from their sexual organs, I definitely don't adhere to that school of thought and there is no point arguing it out... neither of us is going to come round to the other's POV."

Not in the slightest. I believe men and women are different in many ways and many of these differences should be celebrated. But the ability to avoid punching a loved one in the face is not one of them.

What are you teaching your sons, Anna? That it's OK to punch a woman in the face because they genetically don't have as much self-control as women? I'm teaching mine that you don't hit, you don't use violence whatever the provocation.

I like my way better.

HappyDaddy - they shouldn't have to.

But who the hell is going to intervene on their behalf? God? Father Christmas?

Also, Anna, the reason you are getting such obtuse answers is that the answer it seems that you want is

"yes, they can stop being such nagging bitches - if they were a little bit more feminine this wouldn't happen".

anna, don't you think adults are responsible for their own behaviour?

Anna, sorry if it sounds like I'm having a go at you.

Why the assumption that all men are poised to be violent and only the superhuman intervention of womankind can stop it?

I was never explicitly taught "thou shalt never give a woman a back hander". I learned through what I saw.

My brother and I used to kick the absolute granny out of each other but never ever hit anyone else.

society needs to stop allowing women to feel as though they are somehow responsible for violance. either as the victim of their parnters anger or for bringing up a man that is violant.

we alwasy seem to look for the female in each situation. why did the wife not walk out? what sort of upbringing did he have, why has his mother not taught him that violance is wrong.

until we realise that the only person to blame for a mans violance is the man himself, and start actually getting some laws in place that make hitting a spouse a crime we will forever be having threads helping women find support to leave an abusive partner.

M&J - no that is your interpretation.

Here's a thread full of horrible stories but very little in the way of anyone asking how we can stop violence and make society less violent for women. We more or less agree that as mothers we can influence our sons to behave better towards women and to be less violent, but then, when it gets to adulthood, all we seem to get is "Well they should control themselves".

Fine, yes, but they don't always do so. So what are we doing about it??????? Waiting for someone else to deal with it on our behalf? If so, that's ridiculous.

From what I can ascertain from this thread, Anna believes that:

a. women are responsible for their own behaviour and should therefore create more 'harmonious' home environments so that men don't get cross and punch them in the face
b. men are not responsible for their own behaviour because 1. they have no self-control and 2. the women in their lives didn't create a harmonious environment (see 'a') and can therefore be justified in punching women in the face.

Which is insulting to a. women and b. men.