I am shocked by so many tales of nasty, controlling, bullying men on here...

[snowleopard]

I know it is very common. I know domestic abuse goes on in many poeple's lives and people often don't realise. But what makes men like this? We hear a lot about how women can grow up with low self-esteem and ending up in abusive relationships... but that couldn't happen if there weren't so many men out there who are prepared to hit, belittle, control and abuse.

I would really like to know what makes men like this in the first place. It's a great truism that domestic abusers can come from any background, social group and walk of life - so what do they have in common? Is there a feature of their upbringing that made them this way - or is it something we can atrribute more to society in general?

Is anyone studying this or does anyone know anything about it or have any ideas? I'm interested in discussing it, but also I have a son - how can we make sure we aren't raising these abusers?

Well, there are always people who challenge the status quo and quite right, we need to keep on debating.

But I still think that on average women/girls have a way with words that is superior to the average man's (and I say that as the daughter of a publisher father who is more articulate than any man I have ever known bar my linguistics tutor at university).

TellusMater, you're absolutely correct. There is increasing research into the traditional concept that women are much better than men at language and verbal reasoning.

The book you refer to is by Deborah Cameron, Professor of Language at Oxford, which does its own studies, and cites numerous other studies ,showing there is very little difference in verbal ability between the sexes (with the exception of spelling interestingly). In this regard it backs up non-public research done by other experts in this area, including Stephen Pinker, Professor of Pyschology at Harvard.

but sometimes anna, you dont have to say a single word...or you can answer a question wrongly....im not lying here, that can be enough to start someone off.

I think each individual case should be judged on its own merit, for want of a better phrase.

There are definitely some who will hit for something as slight as a creased shirt or dinner not ready on time etc.

But, I dont think that is the pattern of behaviour for all persons who commit DV.

I think that there can also be very destructive relationships. Perhaps some of the behaviour within those relationships can fall under the banner of DV. That doesnt mean that provocation is the sole reason for the DV, but it can be part of it in some circumstances.

I think this whole "provocation" argument is a bit of a red herring, tbh.

Anna's theory of provocation isn't actually borne out by any facts. It's just a good way of enabling violent men to continue abusing women.

Oh well, you you think it's true Anna...

Thankyou c'est la vie. Thought I was going Bonkers!

"women's/girls' verbal skills are far superior to men's and they are able to be verbally very cruel, far more so than men/boys. Of course men retaliate physically (their strength) to women's verbal abuse."

The debate about language skills and gender is interesting but pretty irrelevant here, imo. The image of the teased/nagged male lashing out in anger is hackneyed and simplistic.

Also, last time I looked, some men were pretty good at humiliation and emotional and verbal abuse too...

All right, all right, men are violent abusive maniacs and women are angels who never do anything wrong and actually the planet would be a better place if there were no men on it

This thread is making me feel sad and angry. Sad that so many women have to put up with this still, sad also that so many are deemed to "deserve" it to a small degree, through provocation or whatever. Angry that there are pricks in this world who think it's acceptable.

My point of view is this. It's unacceptable, completely and utterly. I'm a big bloke, 6ft2 and 17stone. I have a temper, don't we all? Since I was a child I have ensured I NEVER lose my temper. Why? Because it's not acceptable, that's why. Adults shouldn't behave in this way, at all. My ex wife used to slap, poke, punch, kick and belittle me on a daily basis. She said it was to see if I'd react, initially, but it also was part of her bullying controlling personality. Not ONCE did I ever raise my hand to her. Not even when she attacked me with a stool and tried to scratch my face off in front of dd, the day I decided to leave her. She still says I deserved it as I "made her angry". Bullshit. If I'd wanted to, I could have knocked her into the middle next week. Adults shouldn't behave like that. Just because I'm bigger than her and COULD hurt, why does that give the right to think I SHOULD do it?

Men who think it's acceptable are COWARDS, who react without care for their actions. If they stopped to think, they probably wouldn't like what they saw so choose to ignore it and make up "blame".

Men like this should be left in a room with me for 5 minutes. But then they'd be too scared that they may get a taste of their ow medicine.

Sorry if my posting on this emotive subject is inappropriate.

"That doesnt mean that provocation is the sole reason for the DV, but it can be part of it in some circumstances."

Yvaine what are you basing your opinion on? Almost all domestic violence research would disagree with you. First you say it's down to testosterone then you argue that provocation also comes into it. Should we women just learn not to "provoke" (although provocation seems to very often boil down to being in the same room as) men with high testosterone?

I think there's a logical fallacy at work here - that because a man is violent, there must be a reason why he did it and that the reason must have something to do with his victim.

Not at all Anna. But it doesn't help to get to the bottom of this issue by resorting to explanations of behaviour based on (socially constructed) gender stereotypes. And I am sick of women being blamed for the violence against them.

yvaine - no i dont mind you asking at all.

i have had to go through it al so many times that i am detached from it all in a way. its like its a memory of someone else life, nto mine...does that make sense?

basicly if me giving teh details of my experiances will help even one person "see the light" either abuser or victim i will be glad that some light has come from my darkness.

If women are such prolific verbal abusers, why are most insults aimed at the feminine?

"You big girls blouse" cunt, whore, bitch, son of a bitch, slag, slut, slapper, "You cry like a girl"

... Why are manly things not insulting, if it's women who are so adept at throwing the insults?

Women can be VERY verbally abusive, and are also generally more eloquent - but relationships in which women are verbally abusing are not the relationships in which that women is being physically abused. women who are being hit are women who have learned to keep their opinions to themselves. I do not buy that 'provocation' argument.

It's also worth noting that a man's verbal abusive of his partner can be a precursor to physical violence. It's one of the red flags women need to watch out for. If he calls you a b*tch or any of the other horrible sexist names, you should be on your guard.

colditz - so men who are physically violent towards women always do it for reasons that are entirely savage and unprovoked? There is never anything in women's power to make their homes more harmonious places?

How depressing.

Anna888 you can apply that reasoning to anything. It's nonsense, of course.

So all the grown adult men who have recently been murdered by strangers they remonstrated with in public - they are partially responsible because they didn't pacify the attackers?

We can all use violence (women included). We choose not to.

"Men have a different self-control threshold to women"

How incredibly insulting you are, Anna8888, to all those wonderful, kind men out there (my DH and my father and my male friends included) who would never dream of hitting a woman, whatever the provocation. What a vile stereotype of men you are propagating, implying that men cannot control their behaviour simply because they are men.

How depressing.

Anna888 - no i honestly believe that if a man is violant there is nothing a woman can do to esnure he isn't again.

when someone feels they have the right to hit out at someone they will continue to do so.

yes it is depressing but a violant man will find an excuse to lash out if he needs to.

I'm interested to think what kinds of things an abused woman should do to make her home harmonious and get her violent partner to stop beating her, Anna.

My dad only hit my mum once that I know of, when she'd taken me and my brother away for the afternoon to get away from his drunken (verbal) abuse. When we got home he was waiting in the dark for us and when we got through the door he punched my mum in the stomach so she doubled up. He was six foot three, she was five foot three. How could she have created harmony in that situation?

Yes Anna - it is depressing, isn't it?

Elizabethh, that is so, so sad.

By your same reasoning Anna, those men have a duty to us not to provoke us into being verbally abusive.

anna- why is the onus on the women.? if a man has such issues, he needs to take ownership of the problem, and get help with anger management, or counselling, or whatever else can help. or women are on the back foot, treading on egg shells, and pleasing everyone else, but themselves. again.

such an interesting and fascinating thread. thank you to all those who have shared such difficult stories.

agree completely with colditz, scummymummy and harpsi

Anna there are honestly at least 100 incidents i can remember where i could have done nothing to prevent a beating.

maybe teh time i came home after finding out my grandad had died. maybe if i weren't in so much shock i would have known not to tell him because it made him angry that his Grandad hadn't called when he was meant to and it reminded him of that fact?

maybe i should have known not to tell him that the pain i was experiancing was caused by an ectopic pregnancy. i should have known that it was my fault s i couldnt even get pregnant right anymore.
maybe then he wouldn't have punched me in teh stomach and then stand over me whilst i vomited on the floor asking me "well now ive saved you a trip to the hospital to get it cut out"