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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I am shocked by so many tales of nasty, controlling, bullying men on here...

262 replies

snowleopard · 24/10/2007 10:13

I know it is very common. I know domestic abuse goes on in many poeple's lives and people often don't realise. But what makes men like this? We hear a lot about how women can grow up with low self-esteem and ending up in abusive relationships... but that couldn't happen if there weren't so many men out there who are prepared to hit, belittle, control and abuse.

I would really like to know what makes men like this in the first place. It's a great truism that domestic abusers can come from any background, social group and walk of life - so what do they have in common? Is there a feature of their upbringing that made them this way - or is it something we can atrribute more to society in general?

Is anyone studying this or does anyone know anything about it or have any ideas? I'm interested in discussing it, but also I have a son - how can we make sure we aren't raising these abusers?

OP posts:
colditz · 24/10/2007 10:47

porn

screaminghousewife · 24/10/2007 10:50

It's got to be a combination of things tho', hasn't it?
Upbringing plays a huge part, hands up anyone who has married a man just like their dad, my own dh is certainly a fantastic partner and dad, just as my own dad was (he had his moments but, for sheer good heartedness, he's hard to beat).
As for the hw issue, I never grew up with that, my own dad grew up without a mum (he was farmed out to extended family) and was expected to earn his keep, so chores have never been 'beneath' him. My dh is the same, yet his own dad is next to useless on that front and I've never known him to make a cup of tea, much less do hw.

GodzillasHorriblyHairyBumcheek · 24/10/2007 10:50

Toys are aimed at specific genders, yes (although it also depends on the parent to buy what they think their child will enjoy/learn from) but why? Far more women have the 'maternal' instinct than men? Males are higher in testosterone and have the urge to show their physical prowess more (in the case of pirate/soldier toys, sports etc)?

Answers on a postcard...

snowleopard · 24/10/2007 10:50

Hope you haven't colditz!

Anna, the reason it's nt qite the same thing is because that doesn't exoplain why some men should be so much more violent and abusive than others. It's a discussion about why men are violent and how it can be dealt with - but it doesn't explain how in the same society, one man ends up as a loving, gentle dad and partner while another is controlling, undermining and hitting his family.

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dizietsma · 24/10/2007 10:50

"Most boys aren't raised to be violent, and most men aren't violent."

I disagree, IMO most boys are raised to be more agressive than girls and agressive behaviours are praised for boys and deplored in girls.

"Abusive relationships occur for many different reasons, not because men are raised to be aggressive, and women are raised to put up with it."

Yes each relationship has its own reasons for happening the way it does, but we're talking about generalities here, these are my theories.

"Women can be the aggressors too."
Yes, but speaking in generalities here, I find women's agression tends to be physical far, far less than men.

"dizietsma - men are no more inherently violent than women... not so sure. My partner (who is not abusive or controlling at home) is quite aware that if he doesn't thrash the hell out of a tennis partner once a week, he feels tense. He loves watching rugby too - he was on his knees sweating profusely in front of the TV during the match which ended in France being out of the final. "

Your DH may just be a person with lots of agression. IMO some people are more agressive than others, not just men.

Testosterone eh? It's one factor, certainly not the whole story- no more than getting your period necessarily makes you grumpy.

melsy · 24/10/2007 10:52

sorry IM not very wordy today . I agree with what your saying colditz, always annoys me seeing baby doll adverts , in fact it makes my blood boil. Mh dh always says Im better at nurtring and comforting , so even in my house Im subject to stereotypes.

cestlavie · 24/10/2007 10:52

Boy, this is an incredibly complex discussion cutting across a lot of subject, e.g. biology, pyschology, sociology, anthropology just for starters. I suspect it needs multiple dedicated research centres rather than a discussion on mumsnet!

At its heart is the entire nature/ nurture debate which, I think I'm right in saying, the most brilliant people world-wide in all of history have been unable to resolve. In terms of raising children, it is, however, generally considered the vast majority of traits are influenced by both genetics and environmental factors (including pre-natal, parenting, family, peer group, media, marketing, socio-economic status).

What is clear I'd say, is that statements like "boys are raised to be violent" really do not help progress the debate but just polarises it (unless of course there's good empirical evidence to show this is the case).

On a personal note, I have a gorgeous little 2 year old DS who is showered with love, affection and cuddles by both me and DW and who is full of kisses and cuddles back. If I look around him and his peer group, I see no difference in treatment of levels of affection given or returned by the boys and girls in it. Equally, it's also obvious that the boys and girls were already behaving differently by the age of 12 months or earlier, i.e. if you give a little lad a toy (including DS) his first instinct is to whack it against something or stick it in his mouth; if you give a little lass something, she sits and studies it for a while before doing anything. A generalisation I know, but just pointing out how deep this debate cuts.

I'd love to see studies as well but as a parent I'd just say that you raise your kid with as much love and affection as possible and try and show them how you'd like them to be by living that way yourself (gosh, I sound like a Californian self help book!)

ScummyMummy · 24/10/2007 10:56

Tis true, teadr1nker. But it doesn't seem to be as common and the (on the whole) greater physical strength of men means that they can do more damage if they are violent.

Even though aggression from women seems (anecdotally) to be becoming more commonplace, it still appears that there is a tendency for some women to respond to trauma by seeking control in the form of harming themselves and for some men to respond to the same by seeking control in the form of harming others. And perhaps some of these factors influence certain men and women forming relationships.

snowleopard · 24/10/2007 10:57

I am with a man who is the polar opposite of my dad. My dad was hugely insecure, immature, humourless, abusive in several ways, friendless, domineering and a nasty piece of work.

My sister does have a problem in that she always chooses immature or abusive men, but one thing to be grateful for is that she does then ditch them, rather than marry them, have kids and stay with them long-term.

However I have always instinctively gone for the opposite - very sweet and mild-mannered men... I think I decided at an early age that something was very wrong and I would be off and out of there and sorting my own life out as soon as I could.

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ScummyMummy · 24/10/2007 10:58

How lovely, fio. (Eating babies is wrong, though!)

Anna8888 · 24/10/2007 10:59

snowleopard - you can't have a discussion about culture (nurture) without a discussion about biology (nature) when talking about behavioural outcomes of upbringing IMO.

An identical upbringing can have very different outcomes because of inherent biological differences. Why does one brother grow up to be a hard working responsible husband and father and the other die in his mid-twenties of homosexually contracted Aids? That's what happened to my partner and his brother - and they had the same two parents, lived the same life, same schools etc.

snowleopard · 24/10/2007 11:02

That was in reply to sceaminghousewife...

btw thank you very much to the men on this thread for coming to contribute... I hope that doesn't sound patronising, it's great to hear what men think.

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HappyWoman · 24/10/2007 11:02

This is interesting and as i have both boys and girls to raise one i am concerned about. i think it is a gerneral breakdown in society altogether. there is a general lack of respect for others - and a 'get what you want out of life' attitude.

Everyones expectations are so high - it is just that we are not 'taught' to handle that when things dont go our way.

Boys and men do have more testosterone racing around and tends to come out in violent controlling behaviour and women cry and want to 'talk' to sort things out. we are different instead of fighting that we all need to embrace the differences and have some real respect for everyone.

I have never dreamed of sending my children to single sex schools i wonder if this has any impact on how they react. I do understand why others do choose single sex schools if you look purely at the achedimec results - but surely this is the high expections thing again surely?

Hope this helps and i shall be watching this with interest.

snowleopard · 24/10/2007 11:04

But Anna are you suggesting a violent abusive man is only that way because of his genes and hormones? If so we shouldn't be blaming these men at all, they should be treated with sympathy and helped, as we do someone who commits a crime while under a schizophrenic delusion for example.

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snowleopard · 24/10/2007 11:05

Interesting points Happywoman - though hasn't there always been domestic abuse? Do you think the situation is getting worse, or better?

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margoandjerry · 24/10/2007 11:06

Anna888, I'm sure you didn't mean that post to sound the way it did and I really rarely do pick people up on stuff like this but

The fact that your BIL died of aids (v sorry about that btw) doesn't mean he couldn't have been all the things your husband is. He contracted a disease and died, poor chap!

Obviously you know the back-story here so you probably meant that his life even before his death was not going the same way as his brother's.

Sorry to be such a bore.

screaminghousewife · 24/10/2007 11:07

That's interesting snowleopard but, I still think that (in my case and I don't think I'm unique) that some of my upbringing is a product of who I am. The fact that I was lucky enough not to be brought up by a man who did not to beat his wife or shirk from his domestic responsibilities has played a huge part in deciding what I want from a man.

screaminghousewife · 24/10/2007 11:08

Sorry should have put lucky enough to be brought up by a man who did not beat his wife! [duh]

snowleopard · 24/10/2007 11:09

Anna - I took that to mean that your BIL was gay, which I agree with you is thought to be nature rather than nurture. But I agree with m&j that that doesn't mean anything bad about him.

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snowleopard · 24/10/2007 11:10

Oh yes definitley screaminghousewife, I think I'm in the minority in not going for a man like my dad - many women do, whether their dad was good or bad.

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ScummyMummy · 24/10/2007 11:11

I don't think upbringings ever are identical, Anna. Are you saying that your husband's brother was not hardworking and responsible because he died of Aids that he caught via gay sex? I hope not. Find that implication very offensive, but am sure it's not what you mean?

I am completely fascinated by what makes one person resilient despite dreadful experiences and another, much more understandably imo, completely screwed up. Some studies show that experiencing one significant person taking a positive interest in you and showing care and kindness may be the difference that makes a difference. Even relatively short term this can help apparently. Teachers, aunties, neighbours etc- take note,

snowleopard · 24/10/2007 11:11

And of course I'm a product of my upbringing too - even what I reacted against.

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cestlavie · 24/10/2007 11:12

Sorry for the long post below, but even a cursory check of Wikipedia shows just how complex the domestic abuse issue.... have a read - some of interesting (and surprising) information in there...

"There continues to be discussion about whether men are more abusive than women, whether men's abuse of women is worse than women's abuse of men, and whether abused men should be provided the same resources and shelters years of advocacy, money-rasing, and funding has gained for women victims sekä Carney (2007).

Martin S. Fiebert of the Department of Psychology at California State University, Long Beach, provides an analysis of 195 scholarly investigations: 152 empirical studies and 43 analyses, which he believes demonstrate women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men. Fiebert also argues that women are more likely to be injured, but not a lot more. Also Dutton, and Nicholls (2005)state that Results show that the gender disparity in injuries from domestic violence is less than originally portrayed by feminist theory. Studies are also reviewed indicating high levels of unilateral intimate violence by females to both males and females. Males appear to report their own victimization less than females do and to not view female violence against them as a crime. Hence, they differentially under-report being victimized by partners on crime victim surveys. It is concluded that feminist theory is contradicted by these findings and that the call for bqualitativeQ studies by feminists is really a means of avoiding this conclusion. Archer's (2000, 2002) meta-analysis of 82 couple-conflict studies found that women were more likely to use physical aggression than men, and to resort to violence more often than men. In the most serious violence the men do dominate for example in 1999 in the US, 1,218 women and 424 men were killed by an intimate partner, regardless of which partner started the violence and of the gender of the partner. On the other hand, Michael Kimmel of the State University of New York at Stony Brook found that men are more violent inside and outside of the home than women. Theories that women are as violent as men have been dubbed "Gender Symmetry" theories.

A problem in conducting studies that seek to describe violence in terms of gender is the amount of silence, fear and shame that results from abuse within families and relationships. Another is that abusive patterns can tend to seem normal to those who have lived in them for a length of time. Similarly, subtle forms of abuse can be quite transparent even as they set the stage for further abuse seeming normal. Finally, inconsistent definition of what domestic violence is makes definite conclusions difficult to reach when compiling the available studies.

Both men and women have been arrested and convicted of assaulting their partners in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships. The bulk of these arrests have been men being arrested for assaulting women. Determining how many instances of domestic violence actually involve male victims is difficult. Male domestic violence victims may be reluctant to get help for a number of reasons. The belief that men are less likely to report domestic violence to the police than women may be a common myth, as 75% of all incidents still go unreported in the UK.

Another study has demonstrated a high degree of acceptance by women of aggression against men. Unfortunately, the researcher does not provide a sample of the test questions used to gather this evidence. Male victims are likely to face some verbal abuse and occasional, isolated incidents of physical aggression but are rarely exposed to a fear-inducing regime involving sustained emotional and physical abuse. After research into aggression in 393 married couples, O?Leary and colleagues (1994) concluded that violence in (heterosexual) marriage does not arise from the same causes for women as for men.

Murders of female intimate partners by men have dropped, but not nearly as dramatically. (See, for example, the report Violence by Intimates from the US Bureau of Justice Statistics.) Men kill their female intimate partners at about four times the rate that women kill their male intimate partners. Research by Jacquelyn Campbell, PhD RN FAAN has found that at least two thirds of women killed by their intimate partners were battered by those men prior to the murder. She also found that when males are killed by female intimates, the women in those relationships had been abused by their male partner about 75% of the time.

Some researchers have found a relationship between the availability of domestic violence services, improved laws and enforcement regarding domestic violence and increased access to divorce, and higher earnings for women with declines in intimate partner homicide. (Laura Dugan, Daniel S. Nagin, and Richard Rosenfeld. Explaining the Decline in Intimate Partner Homicide: The Effects of Changing Domesticity, Women's Status, and Domestic Violence Resources in Homicide Studies, Vol. 3, No. 3, 187-214, 1999)

Gender roles and expectations can and do play a role in abusive situations, and exploring these roles and expectations can be helpful in addressing abusive situations, as do factors like race, class, religion, sexuality and philosophy. None of these factors cause one to abuse or another to be abused.

ScummyMummy · 24/10/2007 11:13

X-posts with M&J.

HappyWoman · 24/10/2007 11:13

I agree that it is a combination of factors but there does tend to be differences - my girls are more nuturing (and one just cant wait for her bithday to get a dolly that wets itself - i hate the idea but that really is what she wants!!) My other girl is not quite so girly but lacks a lot of the drive of the boys.

I do encourage the boys to be competitive and join in with sports if only to be fit, i do also want the girls to be but they really are not so interested, i feel this must be nature as i have not intentionally treated them differently.

My boys were 'violent' as babies much more than the girls, they just seemed to have more physical energy.

I still think society generally should take some responsiblity though - it is a fact that there are differences and i think the 'laddette' culture is not good. Women are different and we should not have to 'prove' ourselves to men.