I am shocked by so many tales of nasty, controlling, bullying men on here...

[snowleopard]

I know it is very common. I know domestic abuse goes on in many poeple's lives and people often don't realise. But what makes men like this? We hear a lot about how women can grow up with low self-esteem and ending up in abusive relationships... but that couldn't happen if there weren't so many men out there who are prepared to hit, belittle, control and abuse.

I would really like to know what makes men like this in the first place. It's a great truism that domestic abusers can come from any background, social group and walk of life - so what do they have in common? Is there a feature of their upbringing that made them this way - or is it something we can atrribute more to society in general?

Is anyone studying this or does anyone know anything about it or have any ideas? I'm interested in discussing it, but also I have a son - how can we make sure we aren't raising these abusers?

i can only guess from my own experiences. to bring up my dc, but i can't let go. i am only going through a mildly bad time compared to some of the women. i am called names sometimes and i think he drinks too much but are these really bad enough to kick out dc's dad for? he really is a great dad and helps me out so much most of the time, with the house and kids as well as working away all week and a lot of the time he does more than i do. i would be heartbroken without him and then that makes me feel guilty and selfish for allowing dc to live in this environment

Colditz - go you on this thread! I don't think I've ever seen you so articulate and forceful (which is not to say you're less than coherent normally but...) Fantastic post, especially your 3rd para.

That is my issue too with what Anna says. If women can avoid DV by not being provoking, where the hell does that lead? To a situation where women are basically expected to do all the work, stay submissive and lick a man's boots, or else be labelled provocative, and therefore deserving of violence. That is the situation that actually does unfold in many abusive relationships, so that they get to the point where a man will give any old reason for hurting his partner - and I'm pretty sure it's not a constructive route.

Anna I agree that deliberately provoking someone in a relationship isn't a great thing. If it's happening, it suggests that the relationship isn't happy and there is resentment and imbalance. It's to be avoided in an ideal world. However I don't see any relationship between that and violence. Violence is a crime by the perpetrator (except obviously in situations like physical self-defence).

As so many have said, if you're provoked that badly, what's stopping you from a) walking away, and b) leaving the relationship, if it's that bad?

I'm still blimmin' working tonight so have to go again...

"are these really bad enough to kick out dc's dad for?"

LLL, I guess it very much depends on what you want your DD to learn about adult relationships and how she should expect to be treated by men.

If she sees her mother being treated with respect and love, that's what she'll expect to be treated with. If she sees her being treated with contempt, that's what she'll find normal.

What do you want for her?

Littlebellalugosi, that's a good point. I'm not attacking LLL, but much DV starts subtly with some name calling and escalates from there.
I remember asking a friend of mine, years ago, "Why do women stay with men who abuse them?"
I was SO naive then. She answered that it was complex, that it often took a while to manifest, that a person was worn down, robbed of confidence of self-esteem, or dependent or at a point in their life it was difficult to leave.
I can only speak from my own experience, but if its never happened before, and your DP's behaviour towards you makes you uncomfortable / uneasy / threatened, you need to say so. He may say you are over-reacting or worse, but that says more about him, not you. Everyone has boundaries and our partners need to respect them.
When I hear women say "He never hit me, just pushed me a couple of times" or "He's never actually done anything, just threatened to" or hear that a man said "I didnt hit you I only slapped you" my heart goes out to them. How many times can this be said? There is NO JUSTIFICATION for physical and verbal abuse. There is no threshold at which its ok.
And once you bring children into the equation its not just you who is affected, no matter how much you think you're keeping from them.
To answer the original post from snowleopard, there's no easy answer to make sure sure we arent raising an abuser, but its my personal opinion that children learn a lot by example. If I have a son I am going to do my very best to make sure he has both self-respect and respect for others. Snowleopard, you might find these articles interesting, as might anyone who wonders if they are in an abusive relationship:

www.enotalone.com/article/4112.html

www.enotalone.com/article/2368.html

www.enotalone.com/article/4113.html (esp the section on "small kindness perception)

I think that men who abuse women have very poor self esteem and the only way they know to make themselves feel superior is to have someone subservient to them.

They only reason they manage it is because the women they hook up with allow their own self esteem to be eroded and their outside influences, friends and family, to be distanced.

I really really believe it all comes down to self esteem.

I've been around here for years and it never fails to sadden me, how many wome come on here in downright abusive relionships.

And it doesn't necessarily involve hitting.

And how many continue to find this acceptable, no matter how unhapy they are.

As teh mother of daughters, it saddens me even more, because a part of me is Texan to the core, and I struggle to think, what might I do if my girl were in such a relationship with such a 'man', because I don't know that it would be anything too good, tbh.

What makes men like this?

A lot of reasons, none of them I'd care a jot about were one of my girls to take up with such a thing.

And don't say I'd not know.

Cuz I would.

There's nothing passionate about an old woman, who bided her time, who was just that intelligent, who plotted and plotted. Who remembered, 'If you ever want to have a chance to get away with murder then you have to do it yourself and never tell a living soul.'

And I hate to have to admit it, but if ever my daughters got involved with an abuser, I'd get him gone.

May not be tomorrow, may be years and years.

But my soul would know no rest till he was gone.

So I hope and pray to all the powers of light and dark I give those girls the self-esteem not to get too far involved with such an entity.

Because no matter how much she loves him, I love her more.

There is no greater love than a mother's love.

For what it's worth I agree with ScreamingandmeltingIcarus, that self-esteem (or lack of it) has a lot to do with DV.

Some great posts on this thread, in particular from Scummy and Colditz. Love Scummy's post of 13.09.

Expat, I can understand those feelings. But one thing that worries me is that outlook that evil, abusive men are just there and we just have to help our daughters to have good self-esteem so they don't become victims. Of course that's what we should do, but I think we should also be thinking about boys and men and how they end up like this. It is not just because a lot of women have poor self-esteem. It's something that some men do, for reasons to do with themselves and society.

I think it's also a question of men's self-esteem isn't it?

Strong, confident men don't hit women. Weak insecure men do. And society backs them up and allows it.

I think bringing our sons up to have good self-esteem is just as important as bringing our daughters up to. And of course, creating a climate where it is unacceptable and where men simply don't have the option of blaming the women they abuse for their actions.

I must admit I think that is the most important thing. Why men want to be like this and how we can stop it happening.

I have 2 boys and a girl and I've seen the wa DH treats them differently. If DS#1 cries (10 yrs) DH tells him not to and seems to find it repellent. If DD cries Dh is struck to the core. And this is one of the gentlest, kindest and most right-one men you can ever meet. DS#2 is only 4 so it's OK for him to cry for the moment. If DS#1 can't show his emotions with tears how can he show them?

That's very interesting OrmIrian. I don't have any sons but was brought up with 2 brothers.

Crying was definitely considered girly in my family.

Girls see the match ads too - they still gravitate to the feminine ones though, on average.

Boys and girls are different, boys are more agressive - they need to be to fight other men. That isn't ever an excuse for abusing women though.

macho ads, I mean

I think it's a mistake to say that only weak unconfident women beat their female partners. All kinds of men beat their partners.

What the experts say these sort of men have in common is that they are usually very sexist and also have a great feeling of entitlement - almost the thought that if they are with a woman they actually own her. Thus if their "property" steps out of line they have the right to punish and control her.

heh "only weak unconfident women beat their female partners"

Hmm yes that's true, sorry I was over-generalising. You do hear of successful company directors etc., whose self-esteem you assume to be pretty high, being abusers. I suppose I mean that you might be lowering the odds on raising a man who hits women, by ensuring that they do have high self-esteem. But then, there's no way of knowing is there, because I'm not sure there's been much work done on the "type" of man who hits his female companion. If there is a type. There has been research about women who become victims of DV - the "battered-wife-syndrome" concept developed as a result of research - but it's extremely telling that no such body of research has been done on abusers. Which is pretty surprising really, to examine the victims rather than the perpetrators.

Actually LittleBellaLugosi, if you wished to research a little further you'd see that there is a very extensive body of research done on abusers undertaken by amongst others NSPCC and Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service in the UK and CDC and Office on Violence Against Women in the US in addition to a lot of peer-reviwed academic research.

Virtually all research says that there is no "type" of person (either male or female) who is responsible for domestic violence. It is, by the way worth noting, when looking at the type of person who does this both men and women are abusers. In the US in 2002, 22% of men have experienced physical, sexual, or psychological intimate partner violence during their life and whilst 5.3 million women experience mostly "minor" incidents of abuse per year so do 3.2 million men (CDC Intimate Violence Fact Sheet September 2006)

My ex boyfriend was an intelligent, charming barrister. He was also seriously verbally abusive, and if I stayed with him longer, I am sure he would have been physically abusive. I had to tip toe round him when he was in one of his moods (often brought on by drink). I did nothing to provoke the verbal onslaughts that went on long into the nights. I think I only managed to leave because I have been lucky enough to have had a wonderful, confidence giving happy upbringing.

Theres another thread on here about what you fear for your DCs. Mine would be for dd to get into a relationship like the one I was in and not be able to extricate herself. Can understand how expat feels about her dds - feel much the same.

I wish I had more to add about why men are like this. I think its a combination of factors, societal attitudes, family upbringing and individual biology reacting to these things.

I'd like to know what that definition of 'minor' is. Can you post a link to that source?

And also while women are capable of being violent, they do not kill or hospitalise their partners in comparable numbers. Female violence is a reality, but it must be placed in proportion to the problem that male violence poses.

And what proportion of those men had male partners?

CassandraMT:

Minor is defined as "pushing, grabbing, shoving, slapping, and hitting". In terms of death, in 2004, 25% of all domestic homicides were male.

The point, by the way, is not to divert attention from the much higher levels of violence which women suffer but to indicate that when looking at what causes domestic violence, simply saying things like men are very sexist simply doesn't cut in terms of analysis. CDC notes the key drivers as being: (i) excessive use of alcohol or drugs (ii) seen or having been a victim of violence as a child (iii) being unemployed/ in debt/ money concerns.

Proportion of men in gay relationships is unclear, however, the very limited amount of research on violence in same-sex relationships says we can probably assume it is about the same as in heterosexual relationships.

Link is below.

Men who are abusive to women are sexist and entitled. People who work with them say this.

Pretending that violence between women are equal perpetrators of violence to men is nonsensical.

Elizabetth, did you actually read my post or just make that up? What I actually said was "...the point, by the way, is not to divert attention from the much higher levels of violence which women suffer....".

How on earth do you translate that into "...equal perpetrators of violence..."?