I am shocked by so many tales of nasty, controlling, bullying men on here...

[snowleopard]

I know it is very common. I know domestic abuse goes on in many poeple's lives and people often don't realise. But what makes men like this? We hear a lot about how women can grow up with low self-esteem and ending up in abusive relationships... but that couldn't happen if there weren't so many men out there who are prepared to hit, belittle, control and abuse.

I would really like to know what makes men like this in the first place. It's a great truism that domestic abusers can come from any background, social group and walk of life - so what do they have in common? Is there a feature of their upbringing that made them this way - or is it something we can atrribute more to society in general?

Is anyone studying this or does anyone know anything about it or have any ideas? I'm interested in discussing it, but also I have a son - how can we make sure we aren't raising these abusers?

physical atrraction first of all. then it was the fact that he was strong and quiet. i felt safe around him (ha!)

he was always quick to defend me and he always seemed to put me first. he was fantastic with kids and treated me as though i were made of glass.

until i was 6 months pregnant with our son and he got me by the throat against the wall then threw me across the floor.

he really was jekyl and hyde. at first we only Saw the nasty side every so often eventually as he learned he coudl get away with it, it became every day.
the violance escelated from just pushing and shoving to full blown punches and kicks.

As i say, the root cause of his violance is debateable but the fact he became more violant and he was able to continue lays solely at my feet for allowing him to do so.
I am not a victim im a survivor, but i must share the blame for allowing my children to witness what they did.
because i didnt leave.

provocation. what a load of rubbish.

did my mum provoke my stepfather to the extent that he needed to smash a glass over her head? no. he got drunk (as normal) she dared to argue back. i know, i saw it.

as a teenager, did i provoke him by asking why he had out of the blue, just called my bf a wanker? so much so that he needed to pick me up by my neck, and throttle me against the door? no.

smashed windows, punch holes in the walls (we bought a lot of pictures in those days), burn marks on the doors where she had locked herself into a room terrified and he had tried to set fire to it...was he provoked? no, he wasnt. i could list all the unprovoked attacks on us but i'd be here a long time!

as a kid i often tried to justify his behaviour or at least understand. sometimes i would imagine something really bad must have made him that way and that it wasnt really our fault. then i grew up a bit and gave up trying to figure it out.

Funnily enough colditz, I've had a seriously awful few days at work. Major major stress - people screaming at me down the phone, things going pear-shaped - truly horrible. Haven't slept proprely all week and been downright miserable. What was my response when I finally had had enough - I went into the ladies had a weep, splashed my face, put my lippy on and went back to my desk. My boss kicked his chair across the office

mamazon
thank god you are not still with him.

I am HUGE! though Yvaine.

and if you asked anyone that knows me to list the least likely person to experiance DV i would be top of thelist.

i am very outgoing, quite abrupt, highly argumentative and strong willed.
i dont suffer fools gladly and to be honest more likely to scare people than be scared IYKWIM.

i think that was partly why i couldn't tell people.

i was a pretty equal match with him physically.

NewID your post has really upset me. Your partner has serious issues and you are taking the blame for them. No matter what upbringing he had, what his personality is like, what he has been through, how much you might annoy or provoke him.... he never has the right to hurt you. Never.

agree with lisalisa and colditz on this

especially this point from lisalisa

"That is why your cycle of abuse has continued and may continue. Because you have allowed your partner to blame you and indeed believe yourself that you are to blame - whether wholly or partly.

You are not. And never will be. And it will stop when you open your mouth and clearly and firmly verbalise this. "

Is he seeking help to change? Is he going through counselling? Can you see a change in him? For me it sounds like you have given him one too many chances already

I see what you are saying Elizabetth, but I'm not sure there is a particular scientific correlation you are making there..... That bald men are more or less likely to commit acts of violence?

That all football supporters are less likely to commit acts of violence if their team has lost? (Hooliganism is acted out both before and during games and not just at the end of it).

Despondency about something can cause all sorts of performance problems I would imagine, but a person who is bubbling with anger over something, will boil over rapidly - whatever the circumstances.

As I said, there are many factors here. But, Testosterone is what usually makes men stronger, and more aggressive.

Yeah, the provocation/he's insecure/he can't help himself defenses are incredibly offensive to the people who have been on the receiving end of violence from these bullies. Sorry for what you went through FrightOwl.

It's reminding me of my friends stepfather when we were thirteen and she was having a birthday party and there were about eight of us girls having a good time. He came in to tell us to shut up and she and I happened to be in the kitchen with the light out. She was in the light from the open door and I was in the shadows. He walked straight up to her and punched her in the face telling her we were making too much noise. When he saw I was standing there he tried to tell me I hadn't seen what I'd seen. So that was the provocation - the noise from a teenagers' party. He used to beat the shit out of her mum as well.

Wow, I'm shocked. I find myself agreeing with Elizabetth here on both points!

Firstly, provocation is an unacceptable defence against or rationale for domestic violence. It isn't allowed anywhere else in law or society (e.g. if I tell a bloke his wife is ugly and he hits me, he can't claim provocation as a defence to the charge of assault) so I really can't see why it would be valid in this context. Apart from anything else it potentially offers the abuser the easiest of get-out clauses ("Yes I hit her, but she said I had a small dick").

Secondly, the concept that testosterone is responsible for men being aggressive is incredibly simplistic and fails to explain why, for example, some women are violent and others are not. There may be very valid reasons at a genetic level but we're only just beginning to understand this, e.g. Kings College isolated the MAO-A gene in, I think 2003, which has been shown to affect the ability of children to control anti-social tendencies, including violence agsinst others.

Thank you for sharing that Mamazon - it must be pretty painful for you to remember these things.

Going back to what you were saying though - the violence started at a point where you were quite vulnerable (ie pregnant)? At a time when stress/worry levels were rising?

Message withdrawn

Provocation is a cowards shelter.

Self-defence - yes. Provocation? Hmmm.

lisalisa - and you don't punish the girls for provoking their brother?

If that is the case, you do realise that you are teaching your daughters to grow up into women who think that it is OK to provoke men?

Very, very interesting perspective in the light of your story.

Men (not boys) don't act violently because they have a group of women surrounding them teasing them Anna.

it is quite well documented that a vast proportion of DV starst during pregnancy.

yes it could ahve something to do with stress or worry, men could claim that the womans hormones are all over the place and she has "wound him up"

i can remember some incidents quite vividly. yes there occasions where i knew what i was saying would make things worse but i said them anyway ( bizaarly if he was drunk i would deliberatly provoke him into hitting me as i knew that once he had he would calm down, go to sleep and he would be fine once he woke up. if he didnt he would just scream and shout and push me about for hours and hours. to me it was teh easier option)

but the vast majority of times i cannot think what it was that set him off.

one time we were watching the news and he commented on something, i said "yeah but xyz" so he got up off the chair, walked over to me and stamped on my foot whilst wearing work boots and told me that that was because i was an ignorant cunt.

was that provocation? was he just stressed or worried?

lisa - what do you do to help him control his temper? As I said in my previous post, my DS#1 has a temper and reacts badly to 'provocation' and DH and I encourage him to work his anger off in other ways. Never tolerating hitting or hurting. Do you think it's unhealthy to suppress your feelings? I get mad (I suspect DS gets part of that from me) but I work it off by going for a run.

Oh Elizabeth come on - women's/girls' verbal skills are far superior to men's and they are able to be verbally very cruel, far more so than men/boys. Of course men retaliate physically (their strength) to women's verbal abuse.

There is NO excuse for male violence towards women and NO excuse for women's teasing/provocation/verbal abuse towards men.

Both women and men need to realise what their strengths are and to know how to control themselves so that situations don't escalate.

Are they superior Anna? I think a new book has come out which questions that.

Oh Mamazon, I'd say it was because he was a twunt of the highest order.

It's just, as a person who has not endured or suffered domestic violence (unless you include date-rape), my only insights into it are what other people tell me. I hope you dont mind?

One new book, TM?

It's pretty well documented...

Am trying to find a link, but can't remember the details . Heard the author (academic) on the radio and I think she said there are fewer differences than are popularly thought.

And that men should get rather annoyed about their inartculate stereotypes in fact.

Oh I don't know, I've met some pretty nasty male verbal abusers in my time. Which sex do you think came up with the names whre, cnt, slg, slt?

I think you're living in a dream world if you believe that violent men are violent because they are "provoked" by women being verbally abusive. Which of the examples of violence that have been shared here have anything to do with women being verbally abusive?

To be honest I think what you've been saying here amounts to victim blaming and also bears very little relation to the reality of physically abusive relationships.

I mean do women become verbally abusive when they are pregnant? Because like Mamazon says that's the time we are most at risk from being attacked by our partners, that time and when women finally decide to leave male abusers, although at that point female victims are the most likely to be murdered by their abusive male partners. Makes you understand why so many women don't leave.

but what about the fact that in most violant relationships the provocation can be as slight as a crease in the man's shirt? the dishes not put away properly? the fact she has "allowed" their child to fall over?

provocation is not the whole story.

personally, comments along the lines of "he shouldn't have been provoked" dont offend me...they make me incredibly sad.

from someone who has experienced/is experiencing domestic violence, it makes me feel awful that they blame themselves for provoking their dp/dh whatever.

from someone who hasnt experienced it, then ignorance is bliss. i would never wish it on anyone. sad, that they think the victim is to blame in some way.

but perhaps, to someone who had never experienced it, the idea is so abhorrent that they have to make sense of it somehow, and the way to do that is to think the perpetrator must have been provoked.

Yes, I do realise that the issue is considered to be cut and dried Anna. But my understanding was that this author thought there was a muddying of the waters between popular 'psychology' and some more authoratitive studies.

Maybe I have created a false memory though...