I am shocked by so many tales of nasty, controlling, bullying men on here...

[snowleopard]

I know it is very common. I know domestic abuse goes on in many poeple's lives and people often don't realise. But what makes men like this? We hear a lot about how women can grow up with low self-esteem and ending up in abusive relationships... but that couldn't happen if there weren't so many men out there who are prepared to hit, belittle, control and abuse.

I would really like to know what makes men like this in the first place. It's a great truism that domestic abusers can come from any background, social group and walk of life - so what do they have in common? Is there a feature of their upbringing that made them this way - or is it something we can atrribute more to society in general?

Is anyone studying this or does anyone know anything about it or have any ideas? I'm interested in discussing it, but also I have a son - how can we make sure we aren't raising these abusers?

mamazon - I agree that there is no excuse for violence.

But what responsibility do we have as human beings not to provoke other human beings to the extent that they have to walk away?

"Provoking men" seems to be a euphemism for a woman getting angry and standing up for her rights though.

The only time I was ever punched in a relationship was when I got angry with my boyfriend because I found out he'd lied to me about going to a football match instead of spending time with some friends I had coming to visit. Part of my anger was shock that he'd lied because it hadn't even crossed my mind he'd do something like that. Anyhow he didn't have an answer to what I was saying so he socked me in the jaw and sent me flying. That was immediately the end of the relationship for me although it took another couple of months for us to finally split.

Provocation is no excuse for violence. People saying it is is one of the reasons that violent men get away with it - people will always find excuses for them.

As for why they do it, we still live in a sexist society where many men think they are superior to women and also think that women are there to serve them, which was reality not that long ago. If a man is caught up in that sense of entitlement, he won't have any problem in being abusive to his female partner.

Anna why do you think provocation is the key to male violence against women? Most male abusers plan their violence, it's about control and power, not losing control.

No, Elizabetth, I am not using "provocation" for "self-defence".

Personally, I think women have a responsibility not to do men's chores and dirty work and accept a subservient role. I also think they have a responsibility not to provoke men into violence.

Men have a different self-control threshold to women. Women need to understand that if they want a healthy relationship.

No, I don't think provocation is at the root of all violence. But it is sometimes an issue.

I didn't say self-defense, I wasn't defending myself when I got angry with my boyfriend I was angry and standing up for my rights not to be lied to in a relationship. He took that as so much of a provocation (because he obviously felt he should be able to do what he pleased) that he hit me.

Men don't have a different self-control threshold to women. That's just utter nonsense. Some men have a willingness to use violence that women don't have, particularly against people smaller than themselves.

And anyway like I said in abusive relationships the man is trying to achieve control over the woman, thus his violence is often planned and thought through. For example in Lundy Bancroft's terrific book he reports a story of a man who said he was so angry with his wife that he tied her up and beat her, however he didn't leave bruises where they would show. When asked why, he said he had made a choice not to do that because he didn't want to leave visible marks. He was in control of his violence, not provoked beyond reason.

My studies show that men who do this are:

Arseholes.

End of study.

"Men have a different self-control threshold to women. Women need to understand that if they want a healthy relationship."

Couldn't disagree more. I don't believe that every man has a biological reason to have less self-control than every woman. I have far less self-control than my dh.

As an adult, if you have self-control issues, you learn how to deal with them - you walk away.

Does the tendency to lash out at people really come from a sense of entitlement? Could it not be something to do with a sense of inadequacy - you take out your frustrations on someone who isn't so likely to fight back.

I think that when it comes to rearing boys you have to tread a fine line between making them aware of other people's needs and feelings, but not making them stifle their own. DS#1 has a temper which has to be expressed somehow - we would never stop him shouting or crying, or go out and tear round the park on his bike, or whatever eases his mind. We try not to tell him off for feeling the way he does but have zero tolerance of his hurting anyone else. Hoping that this will give him the means to learn to work out his feelings safely rather than suppressing them.

So ... although women are more likely to suffer mental illness than men, are more likely to be living in poverty, are more likely to be working in low paid jobs, are more likely to have unsteble hormones ... they have lower self control and we have a duty to men not to provoke them?

Why? Because they are bigger than us? Because they have the expectation of doing what they please and we don't? Because they are more likely to hit us than we are to hit them ... this gives us a duty over their reactions? We have to be better than they do?

Why?

I'm quite shocked by the examples on this thread which aim to explain violence against women in terms of women's actions.

• Provocation (that old chestnut)
• "Immoral" behaviour (if a woman sleeps around, then a man is justified in thinking women are worthless, which brings him closer to hitting them)
• Some indefinable quality that makes it the woman's fault and not his

It's so sexist and depressing. Snowleopard, your OP asks the right question. The key to this is why men do it - not why women allow it to be done to them.

OrmIrian, men who abuse their partners in domestic situations are almost always misogynists who have a huge sense of entitlement that they deserve to have power over their female partners.

Read Lundy Bancroft's wonderful book "Why does he do that?" for an insight (he has direct experience of dealing with thousands of abusive men).

The "they feel inadequate" or the "they've lost control" defenses are ones that allow abusers to continue their abusive behaviour. Bancroft is quite emphatic and I agree with him that one of the reasons abusers get away with it is that society and the people around them enable them, trying to find excuses and blaming the women they hurt.

Great post colditz. Spot on

But why do they want to Elizabeth? I can see how it is allowed to happen and I see why they seem to think they should be allowed to get away with it. But why do they want to in the first place? I don't think the emphasis should be on the women - no-one is ever to blame for being hit. I would really like to know why they do it. 'Because they can' doesn't seem enough of a reason.

I'm certainly not "trying to find excuses" but I do want to know why.

Agree with mamazon and lisalisa. Stunned at the number of people who blame the victim. Still. In this day and age.

If you feel your erection rise in powerful dominant sexual anger at the sight of a girl or woman dressed in a way you find alluring, run for the hills until you are safely limp again. Get therapy or other treatment for your anger issues.

If you feel like punching your girlfriend's teeth in because she has an irritating whine in her voice, walk away and calm down for a while. Consider whether to end the relationship or whether she has other good qualities or is less whiney when less stressed. Get therapy or other treatment for your anger issues. Get couples therapy.

If you want to stab your husband because he won't do his share of the washing up, walk away, calm down, talk about it when you're feeling calmer. Consider whether to end the relationship or whether he has other good qualities or is more helpful when less stressed. Consider whether your standards are different and if there is room for compromise. Get therapy or other treatment for your anger issues. Get couples therapy.

Don't blame the woman for dressing how she likes, even if she was trying to attract you. Don't blame the whiney voiced one, even if she was shrieking hysterically in an express attempt to provoke you. Don't tell yourself that laziness is grounds for justifiable homicide. It is not.

It's your anger. You have to learn to deal with it without being violent. Work out whether it's justified. If it is, deal with the underlying issues; don't be a violent wanker. If it isn't, deal with the underlying issues; still don't be a violent wanker.

Agree with what harpsichord says.

There are physiological differences between men and woment that do make men more aggressive.

The largest differential is Testosterone. We've all heard of this, havent we? It would be interesting to see how much the environment has affected Domestic Violence, considering we are being told that the level of female hormones in everyday objects and even our water supply are at record highs.

In any case, there are many factors involved in domestic violence. I doubt very much this thread will solve the issues of the world regarding it, but it is intriguing to read some of the replies on here with regard to expectations of roles and behaviours.

Agree Elizabeth but OI has a point too. I think it's fair to say that abusers are not necessarily the most secure, happy people. I think a lot of it does come from insecurity - they need to feel a sense of power over somebody, because they have little power or control in other areas of their lives.

And I am NOT excusing anyone's behaviour by sayin that. But I do think it is an issue.

i havent explained why men in general turn to violance, i gave the example of my ex.

he had a poor opinion of women because of the way he was raised.

his mother would bring men back to teh house and many would be quite open about the fact that they were married and his mother was only used to sleep with.

i said earlier that this is of course no excuse to hit a woman but it all helps his already unstable mind to associate that behaviour with all women. he saw women as whores, not to be trusted and who would sleep around as soon as they had teh chance.

in a clear thinking mind this makes no sense at all but in him.....it caused him to beat the hell out of me on a daily basis.

*saying

Agree with doggiessaywoof re insecurity. Most abusers of any sort have been abused in some way themselves.

Mamazon, may I ask what attracted you to him in the first place?

men face far more stresses at work, and manages not to break their colleagues ribs - because there are consequences. The consequences lay out quite clearly that to break a colleagues ribs is unacceptable.

Some of these same men go home and kick shit out of their wife "Because she pushes me to the limit". Funny, I bet if she was a 22 stone kickboxer, he would find his limit to be curiously higher!

Well quite, colditz.

I don't think that a direct link between testosterone and violence has been established except men have a lot of it and they are the violent sex.

Baldy men have high levels of testosterone but I'm not sure if we have more to fear from them than any other men.

Testosterone levels in football fans drop if their team loses, but I've never heard that the losing side has less hooliganism than the winning one. Quite the opposite in fact.

Would an abusive sort be attracted to a 22 stone kickboxer in the first place though?

And vice versa?