AIBU? Waiting to be ‘proposed to’ is patriarchal, mysoginistic bullshit put on us by the system.

[Sparky888]

As adults, why are women expected to ‘wait until they are asked’ by the person they share their life with?

It’s a structure designed to keep women in their place (or any person wanting to progress with seriously long-term commitment).

What other structure as an adult requires us to wait until a another adult, who we share our life and plans with, to ‘ask us’?

How do we still accept this is as a normal-ish part of being an adult woman. ?

Agree. I actually found the whole getting proposed to thing really embarrassing.

Typical down on one knee in a semi- public place. What went through my mind was 'get the hell up and let's discuss this like civilised adults'.

@samyeagar

Fortunately, women don't have to "wait until they are asked" if they don't want to, or even participate at all.

Exactly. Women are fully grown adults with free will. No one forces women to stay with non committal men or men who employ delaying tactics. Nor is any woman "required" to wait for a proposal instead of directly discussing marriage plans with her boyfriend and just getting engaged that way. Some women like being surprised with a proposal and that's completely their choice if so. Any "power" over these things that men have in the West in 2020, has been gifted to them by the women themselves.

'What went through my mind was 'get the hell up and let's discuss this like civilised adults'.'

God yes. Every time I see anyone do this on TV, I cant help shouting 'get up, you idiot!'

@RainingBatsAndFrogs

Oh, god, the 'asking permission'. Coy jokes about name changing and 'Mr and Mrs' .

Women I know don't change their names, unless both they and their partners go double barrelled equally. Or they just don't change.

I can't stand the nauseating wedding rituals and sexist presumptions in the 'banter' and 'witty speeches' by men, natch.

There can be lovely weddings where all the patriarchal and archaic naff stuff is stripped out though, and an equal ceremony and happy day can be had. IMO and to my taste, of course. Some people love the old fashioned 'traditional' stuff.

I agree with you Raining, but on the point on changing name when I got married I wanted to take my husband’s surname as I didn’t want to be associated with my dad’s name any more (a misogynist, cheat and liar who ground my poor mum down) whereas my husband is from a family where his parents respect one another and his mum isn’t expected to wait on his dad hand and foot and put up or shut up...! There was none of that awful ‘asking for permission’ either! Makes my blood run cold.

Totally agree. I confess I lose respect for any woman who talks about waiting helplessly for her boyfriend to propose, giving out silly hints. I can't wait to see the whole misogynistic tradition die. I didn't get an engagement ring either because those are sexist, too, and I don't want to participate in that. Also a total waste of money.

I have read a few threads on here where the OP has been waiting for the big proposal and I just roll my eyes. Usually the person is mortgaged up to the eyeballs, already has kids and all the trappings of marriage anyway.

While I did have quite a nice proposal I agree. I've seen too many threads from women who have already left work and had children with men they aren't married to in the hope it will happen some day. Marriage needs to be a two way conversation.

I agree. Not just about the "waiting for a proposal" bit but the whole thing. The asking for permission, the bribing with a massive rock, the man down on one knee. It's all so sexist and old fashioned. Bleurgh.

I agree with PP - it's self-inflicted. Just have an adult conversation about getting married - if the consensus is 'yes' you can consider yourself engaged.

I've seen many threads on here where this conversation has taken place, but the woman is still waiting for a 'proposal' - i.e. some theatrical event where the ring is presented. If you want a dramatic proposal scene (possibly so you can post about it on social media) and are left hanging around waiting for it, don't blame 'the patriarchy' - blame yourself.

There was a thread here some months back started by a woman whose partner had bought the ring and kept telling her how he couldn't wait to propose but was waiting for the 'right time'.

I agree! Having said that I did wait for the proposal myself that was 18 years ago so I hope things would be different now.

Totally agree, i am well past the age to care personally, but for younger women, i feel it feeds into the idea they are less than males. A committment for lifeling partnership should be a mutual decision not based on whether a man decides you meet his criteria of wife material and as an object of desire. I would be interested to hear how it works in same sex relationships for both males and females. Ditch the princess dress and the pointless engagement rings.

I totally agree..but that's from learning the hard way.

It's so ingrained in society - at least certain areas of it - that asking yourself can seem like you've failed at something: if he loves you and wants to marry you, he'll ask. Right? (I do NOT think like that now!).

For me, if I'd proposed, I'd have had virtually everybody around me look on it like a failure and like I'd demasculated my fiancé. I'd have had pointed questions and looks as well as direct comments. I'd already been taught that I was "too independent" and needed to take a back seat when I was a young teen.

When I tried to step outside traditions - wanting a green wedding dress and not wanting a bouquet - I was firmly put in my place by everybody around me. My upbringing (narc single mother, no father around for most of it) meant I was conditioned to not listen to myself.

I was also brought up with a romanticised view of relationships, solidified by Disney movies and fairy tales (which I loved - they offered a "safe place") with a massive hole of pain from being rejected by my father.

So when I see women subjugating themselves to a man's whims about something that impacts the course of their life, then I a) feel deeply sad that they're in that position, even if they're happy - just as I thought I was - and b) see how the work of feminism has not permeated popular culture. It's merely a superficial covering. In the workplace and law it's better. In popular culture, the gender stereotypes and therefore expectations are incredibly strong.

I was in the desperate waiting to propose camp and so we're most my friends. One friend 'waited' 11 years and it became all we talked about for a while. This was 10+ years ago and it does piss me off thinking back on it how we all just blindly followed tradition and felt like the proposal HAD to come from our boyfriends. There was also a fear of being seen as too 'pushy' if we discussed our want for it too often with our then boyfriends. Some of the guys (thankfully not my now dh) used a potential engagement like a carrot on a stick to illicit 'good behaviour' out their girlfriends .

I have a son and a daughter and I want both of them to grow up thinking of marriage as a choice (you don't have to get married!) and and as a mutual decision the same as any other big division that couples make. I mean you don't 'surprise' your other half with a house or a baby (in most cases!), these are big things that are discussed and agreed upon beforehand, why should marriage be any different?

The 'permission' is the worst part for me. Apparently, it's a sign of respect towards the bride's parents and yet no one seems to consider that's actually very disrespectful to the bride since I am assuming she is an adult capable of making her own decisions and doesn't need daddy's permission or approval!
But hey apparently it's very cute and romantic... according to a couple of people I have discussed this with and of course their partners had asked 'permission '.

Agreed.

When people ask me how DH proposed, they're always a bit horrified when I say he didn't. We discussed the idea of marriage like adults about to enter into a legal contract. We don't wear wedding rings either, which hugely bothers my mum for some reason.

Agreed! No proposal here, we just talked about marriage like two equal adults and decided after nearly a decade together it was the right next step for us, no ring, no proposal and no name change.

The whole bloody wedding industry makes me sick, I actively don’t want my DDs to get married and I myself won’t marry again. I hated being a wife. My partner is always asking me to marry him so I’ve put him straight that, at most, I may consider a civil partnership but it’s highly unlikely. He can make of that what he will

Totally agree. I’m baffled by threads where they’ve bought the ring, (2 in the last while) but he’s still not proposed.

I’m baffled by threads where they’ve bought the ring, (2 in the last while) but he’s still not proposed

Agree although the PPs comment about it acting as a "carrot" for "good behaviour" is rather enlightening (and maddening).

Agreed. A lot of my friends used to say the same when we were younger now nearing 30 they're all going along with the norm. It's not for me. I don't even live with my partner of 7 years.

We've discussed and said we will decide on a year and then he can surprise me with the proposal within that year. A good compromise.

I have never asked a guy out, they have asked me but when it came to marriage we talked about it we agreed that was what we wanted and he suddenly proposed, so got both worlds. I was given away but only because I wanted that honour for my favourite uncle (my dad died when I was 16), he was thrilled to bits, walking down the aisle with a huge smile. He died two months ago so I am happy we shared this. If he hadnt been there I would have walked into the church with my soon to be husband.

'If he hadnt been there I would have walked into the church with my soon to be husband.'

I cant understand why more couples dont do this - arrive at the venue / ceremony together. Most people live together before getting married so why all the coyness about spending the night apart before the wedding, and the bride being 'presented' to the groom, usually always by a man in her family? Grim

There is so much about traditional weddings I can't stomach. The whole giving away thing is vile in my opinion. I don't belong to anyone, I'm not anyone's to give away! I hate most of the father of the bride speeches, so many seem to be almost grateful that someone wants their daughter and they're not going to be some sort of social disgrace spinster. The groom's speech and the clichéd 'my wife and i' - cue moronic cheers. I have also been to some really nice weddings that haven't indulged in that bullshit. One of my friends (bride) insisted on making her own speech to thank everyone.