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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How do I respond to this? CF or am I oversensitive?

130 replies

ShowMeThePainting · 08/12/2020 13:01

Brace yourself, this is going to be VERY LONG! Have changed places and names.

Back story
I was living in Bristol, and I met a girl - let's call her Emily. On paper we were meant to be friends, but although we tried meeting up a few times, there was always something off. She was a musician, and spent a lot of time talking about her open relationship with her long-term partner of 10 years, David, and how amazing it was to be free of social conventions.

One night at the pub, she introduced me to David, also a musician and a painter. Whereas I hadn't clicked with her, I massively hit it off with him, and we became friends. I soon learnt that the person driving the open relationship thing was Emily, not David, and that she was basically always on the lookout for women to set him up with, because her being able to shag other men was dependent on him having women to shag.

David and I became very good friends. We spent a lot of time together, and just really gelled. We had a lot of fun together, and he began pressuring me to get involved with him romantically. Although I was starting to "love him", it's kind of hard to explain - it was more like I developed a very deep-rooted affection and sense of kinship with him, but I wasn't necessarily crazily physically attracted to him, and didn't want a proper relationship with him. So I went with it, out of curiosity but also because I did feel close to him. But along side that, the whole open relationship thing drove me insane. Not because I wanted to be with him, but because I just couldn't stand the hypocrisy of it. It felt like they both wanted the social convention and security of being in a long-term live-in relationship, while also using people without those things to satisfy the "fun factor", while telling us, their "secondary" partners, that there was absolutely no difference between us and their "primary" relationship.

Which was clearly bullshit. A good example was when me and David had planned to do something one night. He came to my house, and she called. It was 10pm. She began crying about how lonely she felt sat at home, because her "secondary" partner had stood her up. After David finished speaking to her, he was really upset and didn't know what to do. I told him I didn't really care about the evening itself, but just wanted to point out that if he did leave to go to her, then clearly he really needed to stop believing his own BS about there being "no difference" between us all. He started crying, and he left to be with her.

While I continued really like David as a friend, I found both of them quite manipulative and deceptive, with right-on principles that didn't actually translate.

End of back story

It was 2016, and this had been going on for six months or so. Finally, I put an end to it, which David wasn't happy about, and kind of tried to continue nagging in me to continue this weird half romantic relationship. I said I wanted us to just stay friends, and anyway, I was going to move to Germany.

On the day I left for Germany, in 2016, he told me he would see me off at the station. He brought with him a painting he had made for me. I was really touched, but I didn't want to take it. It felt like if I did, because things were still ambiguous, it would be like continuing on a romantic thing. So I didn't take it.

2017, time went by, I would come back to the UK for visits and meet up with him, all good, friends.

2018, same. In the summer of 2018, as time had gone by and old wounds had closed, I sent him a message saying - you know that painting you did? Do you still have it? He did. I asked him if he wanted to sell it to me. The reason I wanted to buy it was that I have artists in my family, and I know it's important to support artists you know. Also, I liked the painting. It was painted for me, and it was of a place that meant something to both of us. He said sure. He asked for £300. I wired it that same day, in May 2018 I believe.

Every time I went back to the UK, he would "forget" to bring the painting when we met up. Even when I was there for a few days, and we would meet say on a Friday, and I would remind him, he still wouldn't bring it on the Saturday.

Finally, in 2019, I said - look, would it be easier if you just sent me the painting? That's probably best, it'll mean I won't have to transport it back home by hand, too. He said sure.

Painting never came.

Now in 2020, with the first lockdown, I'm self-employed and income plummeted. I began having to take a very close look at my bank statements, and that prompted the memory of the painting. I began feeling a bit angry about this - it's been two years, I would expect either my money back or the painting?

I began suspecting that SOMETHING was going on - either he'd already sold it, or he had put it on his wall and Emily maybe kicked up a fuss about him taking it down to send to me, or something. Whatever really.

I told him that at this stage, to just forget the painting and give me my money back. He said oh no no no, why don't I send you the painting anyway! I said seriously, just forget about it now. He asked for my bank details. I sent them. A week later he said he couldn't read them properly, could I send a clearer image (????). I did.

Last month he began chatting to me, and asked me if there was anything I wanted to talk about (I told him I'd been going through a hard time). So finally, I sent him this:

"I would like to talk to you about things but honestly I'm also struggling a bit. I don't feel like I should have to work this hard to get back money I initially gave you because I wanted to show my support. I think your tardiness feels disrespectful and that's a shame because it has definitely shifted the dynamic between us which I don't like."

In response, he sent me this:
"Re: the money - I got your email, but I don't have it to send because I'm out of work on universal credit with no savings. I challenge your assumption it's a lack of respect. It was very kind of you to offer support, but your demand for it back went on top of what was already a few hundred of debt. I haven't forgotten and I'll help you when I can..."

Am I being oversensitive in thinking this is quite a manipulative message? I don't know. I'm not sure how the back story and this painting story are connected but they make me feel the same feeling, which is a kind of frustration and anger. I'm not sure why. I just don't think I would have the gall.

To make it even more WHAT...! I saw that he has started a Crowdfunder, he posted on FB asking people to contribute because he and Emily want to make an album.

Am I reading too much into this? His language feels undermining to me, again not sure why. I have been too passive in my life and have recently started being firmer and more direct in my dealings with people, and it's really paying off. So I want to do that if this merits it here. But I also dont want to ruin a friendship by reading too much into it.

OP posts:
KleinBlue · 08/12/2020 13:07

Forget the cash and the painting, and just run far away from David and Emily, who sound like a permanent two-person car crash and all-purpose omnishambles.

JurassicParkAha · 08/12/2020 13:08

Erm... what makes you think David is a friend please?

Do friends hurt you, con you out of money, use you, manipulate you, and then fob you off when you finally stand up for yourself?

You know the answer to this question. You're never getting the money back. Don't lose your self respect along with it too.

Cockenspiel · 08/12/2020 13:10

David and Emily sound like a pair of absolute pricks tbh.

I would not be pushing for any sort of relationship with these people, friendship or otherwise. They aren't your friends, they are self-absorbed, manipulators who have ripped you off for £300.

rosabug · 08/12/2020 13:15

He is being manipulative. Their relationship is built on manipulation. Send him one final message. Say you would like the painting by a given date - or else you will designate this incident as fraud.

Forget the friendship. They are horrible.

Personally I think open relationships are just slow divorce.

Spaghettio · 08/12/2020 13:45

Re: the money - I got your email, but I don't have it to send because I'm out of work on universal credit with no savings. I challenge your assumption it's a lack of respect. It was very kind of you to offer support, but your demand for it back went on top of what was already a few hundred of debt. I haven't forgotten and I'll help you when I can..."

Thus friendship has run its course. His message is clearly manipulative as he wants to keep the painting, the money and you.

Regarding the painting and his message, he won't ever "help you" with the money. If he hasn't done it now, he won't. Also it's not "helping" you to give you your own money back.

Tell him you don't give a shit about his circumstances as he has demonstrated he doesn't care about yours.

Tell him to refund the money, now. Or you'll publicly shame him (FB/insta/Twitter/whatever), but be sure to tell him you'll do this on artist/gallery sites so that his reputation is affected. That's all he cares about.

Then when you have your money, block them both and enjoy the freedom. Smile

DontDribbleOnTheCarpet · 08/12/2020 14:42

@KleinBlue

Forget the cash and the painting, and just run far away from David and Emily, who sound like a permanent two-person car crash and all-purpose omnishambles.
Omnishambles is my new favourite word, thank you!
ShowMeThePainting · 08/12/2020 15:30

Thanks so much for your replies, he had actually made me feel almost grabby!

I cant decide whether to block and walk away, or whether first to give him a piece of my mind or what

OP posts:
category12 · 08/12/2020 16:00

" Dear arsehole, I paid you £300 for a painting you have never supplied. It wasn't a gift of money, it wasn't a loan, it was a payment. If you're not prepared to give me the painting or a refund, we will both know exactly what you are. And it's not a friend of mine. "

category12 · 08/12/2020 16:03

Although to be fair you've muddied the waters by saying you gave him the money to show support. I dunno why you put it that way. You were buying the painting.

Cheeseycheeseycheesecheese · 08/12/2020 16:08

I would block and walk away.

Nothing comes of giving someone a piece of your mind. It's highly likely he won't read it, or if he does he'll try and turn it back on you, so it will be wasted energy on your part. You won't get the closure you're looking for in my opinion.

BluebellsGreenbells · 08/12/2020 16:16

I’d message him and say.

I paid you £300 for a painting back in 2017 and I’ve yet to see this art work, either delivered personally or sent via post as per our previous agreement.

You offer me no choice but to apply to the small claims court for either the refund or painting.

I’ll be in touch.

And leave it there

Purplecatshopaholic · 08/12/2020 16:21

Category12 is spot on! Then block and move on. Jeezo, no one needs that sort of manipulative shite!

katy1213 · 08/12/2020 16:30

When David burst into tears, that was it for me - what a drip!
But absolutely small claims court. Even if you get nothing back, it'll give him something to snivel about!

justilou1 · 08/12/2020 16:33

What Bluebells said... But not as gentle.
look David, I’ve been very patient. I gave you £300 in 2017 for a painting that you have repeatedly failed to provide. I have copies of numerous emails and texts from you a) acknowledging receipt of the money. B) repeatedly promising to send the painting, (and assorted excuses) and C) admitting that you haven’t yet sent the painting. Now you send me a message implying that demanding that you either return the money or provide the painting after chasing you for three is ME BEING UNREASONABLE?!?! Your debts are entirely irrelevant to this situation. You have two choices here (which have not changed since the last time I contacted you.) Either send the painting that I paid for, or return the £300 by 25/12/2020, or I will apply to the small claims court to resolve the problem. (And copy every crowdfunding page you set up. Please don’t try to gaslight or manipulate me again.)

justilou1 · 08/12/2020 16:34

David and Emily are soggy, narcissistic, gaslighting arseholes, btw... Do better next time.

GreenlandTheMovie · 08/12/2020 16:37

Sorry, but you're all weird! I'd forget about the £300 and move on, but all 3 of you seem set on doing the oddest things possible, so I doubt that will happen.

Flibbitygibbit · 08/12/2020 16:39

You’re not getting that painting. Just block and don’t contact them again. Forget that money if you can afford to or go to the small claims court they’re morons .

MyOwnSummer · 08/12/2020 16:59

You sound like a sane and sensible person, OP. These two - not so much. The question here is what do you want, which I think you have answered in your responses. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that either your money or the painting is supplied - you agreed to buy it and you have it in writing that he understands those were the terms.

What you do depends on whether you value the friendship - I wouldn't value this so-called friendship, because he clearly does not value you. He also appears to be just as much of a dickhead as his OH.

In these circumstances, I would send an email advising him to expect an official Letter Before Action, and then proceed to small claims if he ignores it. It will kill off any residual friendship, but from the sounds of it that would be no loss anyway. He is a user, a CF and a manipulative twat. I think the painting is long gone and he has spunked the money - his problem, not yours. I think holding him to account is the way to go. CFs rely on not being challenged.

ShowMeThePainting · 08/12/2020 17:35

I've thinking about sending him this:

"Hey David, sorry for delay in reply. It's taken me awhile to consider what to say in response to a message that basically reeks of entitlement.

First of all, you can't "challenge" a feeling- it's just how I feel, and you'd do well to accept other people's feelings without attempting to distort them.

Second of all, there was no "demand" on my side - it was a request, two years after I sent you the money, which by the way, wasnt a loan, or a handout. It was payment for something you said you would sell me.

Finally, it's not about "helping me out", it's about paying back money you were happy to take off me in exchange for an item.

What are you going to do about this?"

OP posts:
ShowMeThePainting · 08/12/2020 17:36

I actually think the crowdfubder was the last straw for me. WTF? You just expect people to...throw you money?

OP posts:
OldEvilOwl · 08/12/2020 17:42

I honestly don't know why your bothering - tell them both to fuck off, you wont get your money

Aprilx · 08/12/2020 17:47

I am not sure the back story was really necessary or particularly relevant. Somebody sold you a painting and didn’t give it to you. I don’t really understand your comment about artists in your family and wanting to support either, the artist had surely been paid already by David.

If you have the evidence, then small claims court could be an option, however I think you are living overseas which could make this difficult if not impossible. It was £300 three years ago, I’d be writing this off now.

category12 · 08/12/2020 17:57

Oh I'd write it off and never expect to get anything back, but I'd still tell him off. Thieving wanker.

I like your message, OP, although I'd prefer some swearing Grin.

ElspethFlashman · 08/12/2020 18:07

Your text is too long. It's basically setting out an argument.

And when you do that, you just get an argument back.

You need to send similar to justilou. Keep to the blunt facts. That you paid him 300 quid for a product, you have evidence of this, and the next step will be the small claims court.

See if that rattles his cage.

You are definitely not seeing the wood for the trees. You are mixing it all up with irrelevant history. Respectfully, it doesn't matter that you used to fuck him. He stole your money. End of story.

category12 · 08/12/2020 18:13

Yes, perhaps just the middle bit :

Dear Fuckwit
"there was no "demand" on my side - it was [yet another] request, two years after I [first] sent you the money [for the painting], which by the way, wasnt a loan, or a handout. It was payment for something you said you would sell me.
[I expect you to either refund my money or send me the painting as agreed]."
Showme

It's no real point getting into the rest of it, as pp says.