Family bombshell just landed (triggering)

[Blindsided12]

Not nice subject matter, be warned. Name changed due to sensitive topic. So my little sister (33, anorexic) told me my father abused her when she was around 7. She's not sure how many times (could be twice, could be 20) but she has a vivid memory of it happening twice and in which room at home. Hands down pants basically. I'm shocked. I don't know what to do with this information. She said this memory only came to light in the last year. She's been mentally ill for years. I am one of 6 (she's the youngest) and afaik nobody else has experienced this. Can't say it to my elderly mum. Or my other siblings as we're not close and sister has sworn me to secrecy. Parents are divorced and I don't often see him but not on terrible terms. What do I do with this information? If it's a false memory (she's always in and out of hospitals and therapy) then it's a terrible slur on an innocent man. Never happened to me. If it's true, then what?

try not to let an unproven accusation affect the relationship with your father

Really? So you are saying that she is lying and op should continue her relationship as before with her father?? I would strongly advise you to ignore that post op. This could do irreparable damage to your sister.
These cases are always shrouded in secrecy and lies, and can be notoriously difficult to prove - but that does not mean that it didn't happen. Almost certainly ALL of your sister's MH and eating issues stem from this situation.

This is not about condemning 'innocent' men, this is about finding out the truth carefully and with sensitivity, supporting a person in this process is absolutely vital.

that does not mean that it didn't happen By the same token it doesn't mean it did happen. The OP should support her sister but she also needs to be open minded.

Before the people of Mumsnet condemn a potentially innocent man on one person's say so I think it is best to focus on the ladies immediate issues ...

The vast majority of posters on this thread have done exactly this. They have urged the OP to support her sister in seeking help and advised her that it's not her information to act upon or otherwise. It's for the sister alone to decide what she wants to do and it's to be hoped other members of her family will support her.

Note the phrase 'condemn a potentially innocent man'. Nothing about the potentially ruined early years of a completely innocent child. Note that no one knows which of the two it is, but there can be little doubt as to which of these two scenarios is the more devastating and destructive.

It gives a revealing perspective on how much happier society is to reject the painful reality of the frequent physical and sexual abuse of women and girls by men, and instead buy into the far more comfortable illusion that it must be the women who are lying.

I wonder which, in the (impossible) event that accurate data could reveal the prevalence of one of these scenarios above the other, would turn out to be the more common?

I think more people have decided the father is guilty than that the sister is lying. Being abused is clearly terrible and damaging but I think being accused of sexually abusing your child and potentially being cut off by your loved ones is also pretty terrible and damaging for an innocent man.

The OP can support her sister while still realising that her father could be innocent. The support the sister needs shouldn't be dependant on if it is true or not, if she has mental health issues and part of that turns out to be that this is a false allegation she still needs support.

Automatically assuming an accused man is guilty isn't any better than assuming a woman is lying. It is incredibly difficult for the OP.

ancient In my experience, the truth will surface by giving her sister time, space and the confidence to speak up - and talking it through calmly and quietly without judgement. The truth will become apparent in time. And may I say I have come across many mentally ill people in my time, and never have I heard an adult making up lies about their parents. It is exceedingly rare. Particularly one that is close to the parent.

It is most likely that whatever therapy op's sister has been receiving she has been able to uncover something she has found to difficult to process before now. It is not unusual for your children of abuse to blank out their experiences for self preservation.

Re: The poster that said that false memories are very rare. This is just not true. I actually was just listening to a clinical psychologist talk about this on a podcast, and referenced Elizabeth Loftus‘ work on false memories. It’s not as black-and-white as it seems, in fact if anything is proof that our memories are very malleable.

I’m absolutely not seeing that the OPs sister is lying, or that she should be doubted because of her mental health issues, by the way. I guess exploring this more in therapy can only help.

www.wired.co.uk/article/false-memory-syndrome-false-confessions-memories

My DSis and I suffered childhood SA at the hands of our abusive F and others, OP. We repressed the memories and they came back once we had young DC. I'd had traumatic flashbacks for years which I couldn't place, which I now know were PTSD symptoms. EMDR worked well for me and I no longer have those images. The police also found the perpetrator, but the CPS decided there was insufficient evidence for a realistic chance of conviction, despite the police being convinced that they had found their man and my DSis identifying him. (This is because we didn't know him; we knew his accomplice but he had died.)

My DSis and I have both been diagnosed with PTSD. My DB is the most damaged of the three of us, yet he has no memories of the abuse. (F didn't abuse him but others did. He also joined in with the abuse, having been groomed to do so.) But the person with the most serious MH issues isn't the one who has talked about it.

We've been in a similar position to you in that our DM knew nothing about it (at times we have wondered admittedly). She's now 81, and was devastated when we told her about it a few years ago. But it didn't kill her, she coped, and your DM will very likely cope as well. It probably made it easier that my F is dead and by the time we told her she had long since got past the grief stage.

It is easier in our case, as my DSis and I were both abused so we've been able to support each other through this.

Your DSis needs your support. It must be hard to hear what she's told you about your father, but don't dismiss it because she has MH issues. Childhood SA very often leads to MH issues, so that isn't a reason not to believe her.

I'm not saying that what she's said is definitely true, I hasten to add. And I understand the uncertainty, as you weren't abused. All you can do is support her as she addresses this in therapy.

@originaldiv

Hi OP. This happened to us too. My elder sister accused my dad after having a type of therapy that can cause false memories. The part that has made us all a little unwilling to believe her is that we are 3 girls and neither of the other 2 of us have experienced anything similar either. The other element was that she waited to accuse him until he was on his deathbed and unable to speak or defend himself. This was supposed to have happened 50 years ago, so I totally understand your predicament, he is now dead and she basically accusing my mum of knowing and being an accessory - she has never had a good relationship with our mum and it felt a bit like revenge to us. The problem is I would always have said that I would believe the victim regardless and so it feels very uncomfortable to say that basically we don't believe it happened. It has ruined the memories of my dad for all of us and part of me thinks that this is what she wanted. Horrible situation to be in.

Abusers sometimes only "pick" one child per family. Makes it all the harder to prove if it didn't happen to anyone else, and then that person can be dismissed as a liar.

I was the only one in my family abused by a neighbour. My sister completely dismissed me when I told her.

I also had a vastly different childhood to my siblings, despite being very close in age. It happens.

I understand the uncertainty as you weren't abused
Contained within this is the implication that a paedophile is like a ravenous beast who cannot control itself and will grab any child within reach.
some may be like this but they won't last long because they will be easy to spot, the 'successful' ones are careful and strategic stealth predators

@Heffalooomia

I'm not saying that at all, sorry. My F didn't abuse my DB, so I know that they don't target all children.

I was only meaning that it's hard to accept that a sibling had a completely different childhood experience to you, and it must be a huge shock to find that out.

In my case, my DSis and I were both abused, though, thinking about it, she suffered more abuse at the hands of our brother than I did.

In my experience, the truth will surface by giving her sister time, space and the confidence to speak up - and talking it through calmly and quietly without judgement. The truth will become apparent in time. And may I say I have come across many mentally ill people in my time, and never have I heard an adult making up lies about their parents. It is exceedingly rare. Particularly one that is close to the parent.

Nowhere did I suggest the sister was lying but that still doesn't mean it happened. I referred earlier to a woman I knew who for years believed, encouraged by a therapist, that her parents had abused her, it grew to their religious group had all been involved. One day she said she wanted to see her parents, she saw them and gradually rebuilt a relationship with them. She believed the idea had been planted in her mind by a therapist. Did they abuse her and she eventually "dealt" with it by deciding it was untrue, was there never any abuse? Who knows, if she doesn't know I'm sure I can't decide for her but my point is if they never abused her I still don't think she was lying.

But please don't assume that a sibling is lying or that it's just fantasy. If it's true, it really will destroy her to know that you didn't believe her. You need to keep an open mind and just offer your support.

It really helped my DSis and me when the police believed us when we reported the abuse. The CPS didn't pursue it, but that was because there wasn't enough evidence (which we had suspected would happen).

We doubted ourselves for some time, as having memories come back is terrifying. At the same time, it made sense of the scary images in my head, which previously I hadn't been able to place, and had thought I was going crazy. It also helped that my DSis was in the same boat as me.

@ancientgran

A therapist should never put ideas into a client's head. Our therapists never did. Our memories came back before we went for therapy and all the therapists did was encourage us to process how the memories made us feel. And my first therapist really didn't encourage me to divulge the memories to her.

The police accessed all the notes from the therapists when we reported the abuse. And we couldn't do EMDR until after we'd given statements to the police.

ancient Just because it happened somewhere to someone does not mean it applies to op and her family. Or the vast majority of abused survivors.

We have a far bigger problem in our country with those that have been abused finding it hard to speak up and to tell others, rather than dealing with people that are so ill or misled by therapy that they lie.

You are not being terribly responsible by implying that this is the case now. We have to start from a position of believing victims, so we are able to carefully put together what happened to them, without prejudice. If we can't do that, and we let them know we doubt them from the getgo then we inadvertently shut down the conversation before it has begun.

No one is ever going to come forward if they feel they won't be believed, so it is imperative that gentle support and reassurance is given, and then once the facts are known, it is normal to gather evidence, consider time frames, and if needed/requested involve others. Inform the police, authorities and all the rest.

I wonder what you hope to gain by sowing doubts before the facts have even been properly established?

I wasn't implying it was the case now, I was pointing out it is possible. The OPs father might be totally innocent, that doesn't change the support her sister should get but it makes a hell of a difference to him.

I believe the person making the disclosure should be supported and people should accept it is possible but I don't believe that means we should condemn someone as guilty. Smacks of the Salem Witch Trials.

Have you got statistics about false memories, untrue allegations, victims being dismissed. You seem to have made you mind up that this man is guilty which is just as bad as assuming the sister is lying.

Mittens I don't mean your memories are false or that therapists are all unprofessional. Some years ago there was a lot of hysteria about ritual abuse and false memories. Some therapists seemed to have an agenda but I think that is far less likely now. It is difficult as I can only assume that the doctor involved (can't remember her name) and others involved meant well but things got out of hand.

I know someone who has had some success with EMDR, she is still in residential care but it did seem to give her some relief.

@ancientgran

I wasn't implying it was the case now, I was pointing out it is possible. The OPs father might be totally innocent, that doesn't change the support her sister should get but it makes a hell of a difference to him.

I believe the person making the disclosure should be supported and people should accept it is possible but I don't believe that means we should condemn someone as guilty. Smacks of the Salem Witch Trials.

Have you got statistics about false memories, untrue allegations, victims being dismissed. You seem to have made you mind up that this man is guilty which is just as bad as assuming the sister is lying.

Absolutely this...

ancient I don't think anyone has 'made up their mind' about anything, most have simply encouraged op to support her sister, and to hear her out with an open mind. That is hardly stringing up the alleged abuser without a trial!!

Prosecutions like this are very hard to prove due to the length of time passed, and actual evidence available. Much hangs on the creditability of each side.

The sister needs support and comfort, and space to tell her side of what happened to her in childhood. For now that is all that is needed.

Safe guarding present children is the first responsibility that others will have, followed by a decision about the next course of action. It is far better to err on the side of caution, than it is to leave a sexual predator in the midst of a family/in the community. It is the job of the courts to decide if he is guilty.

I think people are losing sight of the OP here. She's having to confront a bombshell that might blow apart her entire sense of her childhood and past, as well as negotiating the best ways in which she might negotiate the support of an extremely vulnerable and fragile sister. She must be feeling knocked sideways by this revelation and has posted here asking for support and help.

This isn't the place for testing out pet armchair psychological theories - particularly ones which have caused contestation among the most knowledgeable professionals in the field of experts - and it certainly isn't the place for victim-blaming.

OP, even though you were never abused yourself and don't yet know what to make of the situation, I'm sure that even the suggestion of this happening in your own family will be devastating and a lot to process. I'd suggest you take some space of your own and explore your own feelings through therapy if you wish to. It must have been very difficult for your sister to confide in you, but it's no easier for you to have to hear it. You are important too, and as far as supporting other people is concerned you need to put on your own oxygen mask first.

I'm sorry this is happening to you

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I think people are losing sight of the OP here. She's having to confront a bombshell that might blow apart her entire sense of her childhood and past, as well as negotiating the best ways in which she might negotiate the support of an extremely vulnerable and fragile sister. She must be feeling knocked sideways by this revelation and has posted here asking for support and help.

This isn't the place for testing out pet armchair psychological theories - particularly ones which have caused contestation among the most knowledgeable professionals in the field of experts - and it certainly isn't the place for victim-blaming.

OP, even though you were never abused yourself and don't yet know what to make of the situation, I'm sure that even the suggestion of this happening in your own family will be devastating and a lot to process. I'd suggest you take some space of your own and explore your own feelings through therapy if you wish to. It must have been very difficult for your sister to confide in you, but it's no easier for you to have to hear it. You are important too, and as far as supporting other people is concerned you need to put on your own oxygen mask first.

I'm sorry this is happening to you

Thank you. I have made an appointment with a therapist to try and make sense of it all.

ancient your point that immediately finding the man guilty (aka believing victims) is just as bad as not believing women when they come forward would be correct, if not for the context that is human society. We do not have a pandemic of women telling fibs, we have a pandemic of sexual assault that is predominately aimed at females. It IS more important to believe women than it is to remain impartial, especially if that woman is your sister/family member.

Also, believing women when they come forward is not comparable to murdering people for being witches, unless you're implying that it's impossible for people to be guilty of SA, in the same way that it's impossible to be a witch? Not a great comparison. And considering the fact that even men who are convicted usually spend very little time in jail anyway, it's an even less helpful comparison

we have a pandemic of sexual assault that is predominately aimed at females
^this, it's like a hidden campaign to psychologically injure girls so that they never are forever hobbled and disadvantaged
imagine if this didnt happen, how much more confident and accomplished women as a whole would be, how better able to withstand the slings and arrows of life, fight their own corners etc

As a bare minimum this kind of abuse should not be buried in shame, secrecy and lies - just to protect abusers - anything other than full disclosure is letting down the children at the centre of this kind of abuse.

Have we learnt nothing from Rotherham?

It is depressing that we are still so far behind where we need to be with this kind of abuse, and all kinds of abuse of children. Every child (even grown up ones) should be encouraged to come forward, their voices heard in full and in their own words - no one should be cowed into silence, and no predator should ever consider himself safe just because he abused a child/children twenty years ago.

@Fl1mflam Historical sexual abuse also involves boys and not just girls. Obviously, the overwhelming majority of perpetrators are male, but we shouldn't overlook the fact that boys are abused too.

My DB was abused as well as my DSis and me, and he's ended up with much more long-term damage.

The Alan Davies autobiography ‘Just Ignore Him’ came out a few weeks ago, Alan was sexually abused by his father (his siblings were not). It’s an excellent book and a window into this kind of situation.