What should I do? Please help. Avoidant attachment and working towards a future

[realist252]

I posted before about how I was worried that my bf of 18 months might not want to work towards having a future together because we only spent one night in the evening together and one night at the weekend together and it really should be more than that by this stage in the relationship.

I was very anxious about having the conversation with him as he is avoidant due to childhood issues (his mum is a bully and even today will go for months without speaking to him if he has displeased her). However, I gave him notice that I wanted to talk about the future with him so he could get used to/prepare for the idea and not be caught off guard, and he agreed that he wants to work towards a future and settling down with and having a family me so we agreed to increase the time we spend together to one night in the week and 2 nights and 1 day at the weekend as a start, not necessarily spending every moment of the time together, but just getting used to being in each other's space.

The first weekend of the new pattern was last weekend and it went really well, he said what a lovely time we'd had. However, this week he seems to have got cold feet. We planned to do Saturday evening and Sunday day and night this weekend because I am visiting family friends who live far away on Saturday during the day but he twice suggested that I just come to see him on Sunday because it would be 'a lot of driving' (which it would, but it seems to me that this could be him backtracking). I said no and he seemed fine with the original plan.

Then today he messaged to ask if I wanted to go to his friends' for dinner on Saturday. I said it would be lovely but that I wouldn't be back from my family friends' in time. He interpreted this as meaning that he couldn't go, which is not what I said at all - I am actually happy for him to go on his own - and it resulted in an argument. Due to his upbringing, he moves on from arguments as soon as they are over whereas I tend to get upset and dwell, hence why I am up at this time writing this post!

I think his reaction is an illustration of his fear that spending more time together/committing would threaten his independence and space (as an avoidant he is very protective of this).

Is this a lost cause? Should I cut my losses now or should I stick around and demonstrate that commitment doesn't mean that I will want to spend 24/7 with him and that he can still be his own person and do his own thing in the hope that he will realise that commitment doesn't mean sacrificing his identity and independence?

We have had our issues over the 18 months but we have worked to overcome them and really understand each other and each other's needs and communication styles. The relationship is great in so many other ways but I am 30 now (he is 32) and part of me thinks I should just go and find a man willing to commit to a future with me rather than working so hard to meet my boyfriend's needs to make him feel comfortable. But then I could find a man willing to commit who isn't as funny/affectionate/intelligent/fun/sociable/ (all things that are important to me) as my boyfriend is and that's not what I want either.

I truly would be devastated to end things, but better to be devastated now 18 months in rather than 3 years down the line when he still can't commit? (he has committed verbally but his recent attempt to backtrack and his reaction to me not being able to go to his friends' for dinner suggests to me that whilst he may think he wants to commit, he is actually afraid/unable to)

It's still early days in terms of the new pattern of seeing each other - this is only the second weekend of it - so I understand there will be an adjustment period for both of us and, as he is avoidant, he is naturally going to pull back initially. But how much allowance should I make? Do I give it time? Or write it off?

I also had years of therapy, including several months recently about hoping not to put up with future bollocks from men.

@realist252 I read Mumsnet Relationships threads a lot- would recommend.

The trick is to bin men early on if they're crap.

You will feel in control of your own life.

@Dacquoise

Hi OP, I had the same experience as@FMSucks, married a dismissive avoidant and it was a relentless twenty years of loneliness and the world revolving around his needs. He kept me at arms length on a parallel train track that only went in one direction, his way. By the end I was a shadow of myself.

He couldn't spend more than a couple of hours in my company and buried himself in his work and hobbies because he couldn't tolerate intimacy. Weekends he would be up and out of the house at the crack of dawn. Never got involved in the house, never initiated any joint social life and was a stranger to our child. I wasted my younger years accommodating this behaviour, trying to get scraps of his attention.

When I finally got the courage to let him know I was divorcing him, didn't say a word but handed me a letter days later going on about my mother. Bizarre! When I asked him why he got married he told me he liked having someone at home ie housekeeper, cook, childcare.

As another pp said, work on the reasons why you are tolerating this behaviour, preferably in therapy and move on. He won't change unless he is motivated to which is unlikely if you accommodate him. Why would he?

After much therapy and work on myself I am now with someone that loves my company. My life is completely different. It's not a struggle for attention. It really shouldn't so difficult.

I agree that I do need therapy, but my bf is nowhere near as bad as your ex-H, which makes it harder to make the decision - it is not so clear cut.

We go on holiday for 5 days at a time and spend the whole time in each other's company then so it's not like he can't tolerate my company. He is involved in my house and is keen to help me with it, do DIY etc. He doesn't expect me to cook for him and he regularly cooks for me. He knows how to keep a house as he has lived alone for so long so he wouldn't expect that of me either.

If he was bad through and through the decision would be a lot easier.

Well it sounds like routine and formality is what suits you both as a couple... we’re all different! You say you’re equally happy to take it extremely slowly so that’s great as it works for you both.

@Sundries

So, you’ve carefully chosen someone who isn’t really available because of his geographical distance, reluctance to spend more time than he deems necessary with you, fear of being crowded and his independence curtailed, his ‘avoidant’ attachment, and his childhood, and by the time you’ve spent two years together, your best hope is that he will agree to you spending another night per week together, on the world’s most tortuously slow path to marriage and children? You need to put in weeks of careful preparation and notice-giving before you even venture to have a conversation about the future, because the slightest deviation from his routine codes for him as entrapment and danger?

OP, you know you’ve chosen this because of your own damage, don’t you?

Actually I spent years online dating before I found someone I really clicked with and he just happened to live that far away. We have spent 18 months together and yes, it may seem a torturously slow path to marriage and and children but I would not be comfortable with a super-fast pace either. I am happy with this pace, I was just concerned at his reluctance last week after initially seeming keen for it, which he has now explained.

Yes I am aware I am damaged and that a lot of this is down to me. But he doesn't want to move too fast and neither do I - as I have said it is only in the past couple of weeks that I have really thought about the issue - so perhaps he is better for me than someone who wants to move super quickly. I still have a lot of work to do on myself which is why I appreciate the space at the moment.

@SoUtterlyGroundDown

Ah sorry I didn’t mean to make out it was unannounced. We’d been texting saying that we missed each other and it was a joint decision. Anyway sounds like you’re happy... heather or you are all that fussed about spending more time with each other as it interferes with your routines and boundaries so if it works for you then fab.

To be honest, it does work for us at the moment. I think I am getting caught up in societal expectations and not thinking about what is right for the two of us. Perhaps I need to focus less on the future and whether or not he might leave and more on the just having fun and building the relationship.

@SoulofanAggron

I also had years of therapy, including several months recently about hoping not to put up with future bollocks from men.

@realist252 I read Mumsnet Relationships threads a lot- would recommend.

The trick is to bin men early on if they're crap.

You will feel in control of your own life.

I wish he was crap because then the decision would be easier, but in honesty I have never pushed for more of a commitment before because I was (am?) afraid of it too. If he was crap like a lot of the men described on mumsnet I'd have left long ago but he has many good qualities in the way that he makes an effort with my family and friends, plans fun things for us to do, always checks in with me to see how my day has been, makes an effort to be emotionally involved and interested which doesn't come easily to him, builds up my confidence by telling me how good I am, encourages and supports me to better myself etc.

@SoUtterlyGroundDown

Well it sounds like routine and formality is what suits you both as a couple... we’re all different! You say you’re equally happy to take it extremely slowly so that’s great as it works for you both.

Yeah I think I may be getting too caught up in other people's relationships and what works for them. We are all individuals so different strokes for different folks!

@realist252 just a comment, you mentioned a couple of times talking to his friends about his attitudes/relationships . I wouldn’t advise this, it doesn’t usually end well.

[quote Eugenieonegin]@realist252 just a comment, you mentioned a couple of times talking to his friends about his attitudes/relationships . I wouldn’t advise this, it doesn’t usually end well.[/quote]
Yeah I can see the pitfalls here - it was actually the girlfriend of one of his friends so one step removed. She did give me a good insight into how he hasn't had a serious gf before and is used to being on his own and having space as she has known him for 6+ years but it is not something I will be doing regularly.

They're hardly ever awful 24/7 or no-one would put up with them as long as women do. I've seen several women on here say they wish their OH was awful all the time/physically violent so they knew they were awful for sure.

@SoulofanAggron

They're hardly ever awful 24/7 or no-one would put up with them as long as women do. I've seen several women on here say they wish their OH was awful all the time/physically violent so they knew they were awful for sure.

He's not awful though, he's just struggling with the transition from his independent life to accomodating another person.

He has told me what he wants and been emotionally literate enough to identify his needs to adjust gradually. I was feeling pleased about that but the replies from posters here have made me confused - he's not a bad person and I'm not sure where I implied that?

I'm sure he's not a bad person, but you are micro-managing this like it's writing a five-year business plan for a bank loan.

Your need for control does seem to have transferred itself onto this from your eating disorder, and I really think that you should prioritise some personal therapy.

It's much healthier to have relationships with people rather than projects. How does he feel about you treating him like a business merger? How can you find him attractive when you infantilise him like this? Does he know that he is being labelled as "avoidant" by you, and that you are spending so much emotional energy on persuading him into the shape of the plans you're making?

I hope this doesn't sound unkind- it isn't meant to be. You aren't leaving yourself a lot of space here to experience love in an organic way: things are really not meant to be this regimented and difficult.

It’s a real struggle for him to ‘accommodate another person’. That won’t ever be fun, OP. It won’t ever make you feel safe and held and completely embraced with trust and love.

You’re back-peddling in your posts, because you don’t want to lose him. But it does feel like the healthy thing to do would be for you to end it now and move on. Don’t waste years doing worried little dances around this avoidant person.

@BitOfFun

I'm sure he's not a bad person, but you are micro-managing this like it's writing a five-year business plan for a bank loan.

Your need for control does seem to have transferred itself onto this from your eating disorder, and I really think that you should prioritise some personal therapy.

It's much healthier to have relationships with people rather than projects. How does he feel about you treating him like a business merger? How can you find him attractive when you infantilise him like this? Does he know that he is being labelled as "avoidant" by you, and that you are spending so much emotional energy on persuading him into the shape of the plans you're making?

I hope this doesn't sound unkind- it isn't meant to be. You aren't leaving yourself a lot of space here to experience love in an organic way: things are really not meant to be this regimented and difficult.

No, not unkind. You are probably right - I seem to be trying to micromanage him out of my desire for a certain future and this thread has made me realise that. I am going to take a step back and try to stop orchestrating things so much.

@AtrociousCircumstance

It’s a real struggle for him to ‘accommodate another person’. That won’t ever be fun, OP. It won’t ever make you feel safe and held and completely embraced with trust and love.

You’re back-peddling in your posts, because you don’t want to lose him. But it does feel like the healthy thing to do would be for you to end it now and move on. Don’t waste years doing worried little dances around this avoidant person.

It's a struggle for me to accomodate him too, I just haven't vocalised it in the way that he has.

I'm so confused right now. He is trying (I didn't think he was when I originally posted, our conversation at the weekend has clarified things) - isn't that enough?

He's not awful though, he's just struggling with the transition from his independent life to accomodating another person.

The poor thing. As a PP said, a partner shouldn't be a project, or a therapy client.

It's a struggle for me to accomodate him too, I just haven't vocalised it in the way that he has.

Maybe because you care about his feelings. Also, you clearly want more time with him than vice versa at the moment; that's why you started the thread.

He is trying (I didn't think he was when I originally posted, our conversation at the weekend has clarified things) - isn't that enough?

Wouldn't you rather have a partner who doesn't have to try and make themselves want to be with you- they just do?

Only you can say whether it's enough. I'm not a clairvoyant but I think he'll keep disappointing you, sooner or later.

Please let us know how it goes. xxx

@SoulofanAggron

He's not awful though, he's just struggling with the transition from his independent life to accomodating another person.

The poor thing. As a PP said, a partner shouldn't be a project, or a therapy client.

It's a struggle for me to accomodate him too, I just haven't vocalised it in the way that he has.

Maybe because you care about his feelings. Also, you clearly want more time with him than vice versa at the moment; that's why you started the thread.

He is trying (I didn't think he was when I originally posted, our conversation at the weekend has clarified things) - isn't that enough?

Wouldn't you rather have a partner who doesn't have to try and make themselves want to be with you- they just do?

Only you can say whether it's enough. I'm not a clairvoyant but I think he'll keep disappointing you, sooner or later.

Please let us know how it goes. xxx

I do see what you are saying. Given that he has said he wants to work towards a future with me and is onboard with the extra time spent together I would like to see what happens. He has said that the difficulty is not because he doesn't want to be with me - he does, but there is a tension between that and his desire for independence and space, and I understand that because I feel similarly about my loss of control around food due to the extra time spent together. Ultimately though we have both decided to make ourselves a little uncomfortable in the short term to work towards a long term future and that's what counts.

If we had spoken about the future and he had given me a non-committal response like 'I don't know' or 'why do we have to plan things, why can't we just see how it goes?' I would have ended things there and then, but he has said he wants a future with me and that he wants to work towards settling down so I do think I need to give it a go really. I don't think it's reasonable to dump someone because they have admitted that they will find adjusting to part of the relationship challenging.

I am not going to bring the subject up again with him but I will be observing his behaviour to see if it matches his words. Thank you for your thoughts xxxx

He has said that the difficulty is not because he doesn't want to be with me - he does, but there is a tension between that and his desire for independence and space

This seems at odds with a relationship tbh. There is something in your descriptions of him that remind me of someone trying to ‘come to terms’ with something and not embracing a new shared life.

OP have you considered your own blueprint of adult intimate relationships is playing out here? The ‘I feel I have to be here but I’d much rather be somewhere else’ dynamic?

Also don’t disregard the impact teenage/early adult anorexia has on the development of the adult self. The overwhelming need to control and ‘protect’ the self is at odds with the experimenting, adapting, changing, risk-taking that we need to do to find the version of our adult self we are most comfortable with. There’s something in your language that feels to me like you are bringing the ‘smallest’, most ‘play doh’ version of you to this relationship - what does he need and I’ll mould myself into that. These aren’t judgements of you but maybe things to consider. I hope you are having some personal therapy around your own early experiences of adult relationships and the ‘rules’ you learned about them. It might be more useful in the long term than worrying about this man and his ‘avoidant’ attachments

He’s stringing you along because he doesn’t see a future with you.

They can say anything & not mean it. It’s just words.

OP therapy with someone who specialises in attachment theory could be illuminating. Never mind what your partner wants/needs, I think you could do with some time putting yourself first. Set yourself free from some of these demons....

He will never have children with you , OP, so I think you have to let that dream go now. He wants to do what he wants, when he wants it With no commitment or ties to anyone. He wants to see his friends and do his own thing, even during the relatively small amount of time he does allocate to you.

How is that going to fit with the demands of caring for a small baby 24/7?

I know that you say that his complete selfishness isn’t because he is bad person, it’s because of his issue. But he’s still totally selfish. How is that compatible with being a parent ?

You are willing to spend the best years of your life being unhappy trying to fix him and contorting yourself to meet his needs. A baby doesn’t do that - they want and need all your attention now and they will scream the place down if they don’t get it.

What if the baby has a dirty nappy and he decides a needs a few weeks to adjust to the unpleasant smell before changing it ? what if he finds the noise of baby crying to be uncomfortable so he decides to leave the baby alone for a few days ?

Because guess what - EVERYONE hates the smell. EVERYONE hate the noise - that’s what it’s designed for. EVERYONE finds night feeds tiring.

Please tell me how you see him coping with all that?

@Boscoismyspiritanimal

He has said that the difficulty is not because he doesn't want to be with me - he does, but there is a tension between that and his desire for independence and space

This seems at odds with a relationship tbh. There is something in your descriptions of him that remind me of someone trying to ‘come to terms’ with something and not embracing a new shared life.

OP have you considered your own blueprint of adult intimate relationships is playing out here? The ‘I feel I have to be here but I’d much rather be somewhere else’ dynamic?

Also don’t disregard the impact teenage/early adult anorexia has on the development of the adult self. The overwhelming need to control and ‘protect’ the self is at odds with the experimenting, adapting, changing, risk-taking that we need to do to find the version of our adult self we are most comfortable with. There’s something in your language that feels to me like you are bringing the ‘smallest’, most ‘play doh’ version of you to this relationship - what does he need and I’ll mould myself into that. These aren’t judgements of you but maybe things to consider. I hope you are having some personal therapy around your own early experiences of adult relationships and the ‘rules’ you learned about them. It might be more useful in the long term than worrying about this man and his ‘avoidant’ attachments

I think this is very acute, OP. And reread @Dacquoise’s post. My friend (the avoidant male) was perfectly happy to go on holidays with his girlfriend, but had to be micromanaged into commitment, marriage, children, and it all planned out as @Dacquoise describes, except that he ended the marriage, because he hated family life.

Just to add to @Sundries comments my ex husband seemed okay in the early years. His avoidance really kicked in when I got pregnant. He withdrew completely throughout the pregnancy, wouldn't plan or talk about it and went out of his way to retain his single lifestyle once our daughter was born.

He resisted all parental responsibilities, even during our separation. He used to leave her home alone to play sport on his weekend access despite knowing how scared she was. Told her not to tell me.

He eventually abandoned our daughter once he was set up home with his next victim. He is an emotional loner and it will never change. Interestingly the set up with wife number two is similar. She is financially dependent on him, he gives her the same monthly allowance and runs the house whilst he is absent with his job and hobbies. Arms length all the way.

I’ve only read your responses OP so apologies if this has already been said to you. You say he is avoidant and the way you present it is that you’re the one looking for healthy attachment to his avoidant attachment. You might even think you veer more towards anxious attachment yourself.

But actually, in this sort of scenario, YOU are avoidant too. It’s hard to see because you’re the one driving the relationship, trying to work out a game plan to get to the commitment and intimacy you say you want. But if you really did want it, you’d have seen over 18 months it’s not going to happen and you’d be utterly uninterested in managing him towards commitment.

Being avoidant is not just being the one who gets ‘chased’ for more commitment. It’s also being the one who hitched their wagon to the avoidant horse. That way you can AVOID the reasons you aren’t seeking out healthy attachment by telling yourself you are - after all, you’re coming up with this game plan!

I know all this because I could have written your post myself. I spent four years trying to manage someone into commitment and he spent four years being all loving but reluctant (but willing to give small concessions) like your partner is - until the cards were on the table and he had to make an actual commitment. Then he acted like such a twat I had to break up with him.

It took another couple of years of me believing i’d been all set for a healthy committed relationship and I just needed an available and non avoidant partner to see the truth. A man who wanted to commit came along and I went screaming for the hills. I couldn’t tolerate it. It was only then I realised that I too was avoidant and i’d been choosing men who were more overtly avoidant than me to waste my time on. Never addressing why I was doing it and always thinking it was just the other person who had issues (also from childhood!!) that meant they needed time, me encouraging them blah blah.

My advice to you would be to read more into avoidant types and those who chase them. It’s so easy to feel you’re ready for a relationship with true intimacy and commitment when you’ve settled on someone you know deep down will not go there with you.

@Dacquoise

Just to add to *@Sundries* comments my ex husband seemed okay in the early years. His avoidance really kicked in when I got pregnant. He withdrew completely throughout the pregnancy, wouldn't plan or talk about it and went out of his way to retain his single lifestyle once our daughter was born.

He resisted all parental responsibilities, even during our separation. He used to leave her home alone to play sport on his weekend access despite knowing how scared she was. Told her not to tell me.

He eventually abandoned our daughter once he was set up home with his next victim. He is an emotional loner and it will never change. Interestingly the set up with wife number two is similar. She is financially dependent on him, he gives her the same monthly allowance and runs the house whilst he is absent with his job and hobbies. Arms length all the way.

@Dacquoise, what you say so sounds so like my friend in many ways.

I knew him through work, so I only met his wife a couple of times, and after I'd known him for quite a long time, and I only gradually realised that while he was an excellent and committed friend, he was a terrible husband and an awful father. (She did everything in that marriage, from housework to emotional work, while working FT in a demanding job.) Something that's only more obvious now that they're divorced, as he's supposed to have the children half the time, but it's more like 10%, and even then it involves a lot of huffing and puffing, and abrupt cancellations of his overnights for work, which was always his alibi for absences from family life.

The thing is, I worked in exactly the same job as him, at the same level of seniority, and I wasn't out of the house seven am till seven pm, and shut away in my study at weekends. It simply wasn't necessary. It was his excuse for not having anything to do with the ultimate horror that was 'family life'.

The awful thing is that his wife really loved him, and had sunk her entire adult life into managing him and keeping the show on the road, and she was devastated when he told her he wanted a divorce.