September 2020 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's now September 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi @Free3mee3, thank you so much ❤️ I still have issues with it because they present as incredibly nice, funny, likeable people in public (which is why even when I tried to come out about abuse to people around the time it was shut down I think).

I'm doing okay though! I have a lot of emotional scars and behaviours that I need to deal with and I have very low self esteem, but overall I think I'm quite happy 😊 I've not been in contact with them for nearly a year which has been incredibly turbulent- feeling very anxious and sad about Christmas as it's my first one without them, but overall trying to keep my chin up. This thread seems so supportive though, I'm grateful ❤️

I still have issues
Of course it sounds like a complete and utter head fu(k☹️
The thing about 'presenting as incredibly nice funny people' I think they sound as dumb as rocks but also cunning as foxes... no intellect whatsoever but they instinctively manage to keep the plates spinning🙄
I think keep away, keep away, keep away, and then keep away some more!
Have you a plan to get through Christmas?
I should confess that I am a total Christmas denier....just another day to me, hopefully someone else has advice on the Christmas issue....🙏

Hi Berry

This is taken from the initial post at the start of each Stately Homes thread:-
"Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x, y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth".

Your story is just as traumatic as others I have read about on here and your parents are indeed abusive and dysfunctional. Your parents let you down abjectly and failed you utterly. Your dad's reply was a typical response from a toxic parent and it was really a non apology.

Abusive people like you describe tend to be quite plausible to those in the outside world and to outsiders; it is behind closed doors that their true nature emerges.

You are no contact with your abusers for very good reason. I would look to further ridding yourself of any and all fear, obligation and guilt that these people instilled in you.

Christmas is an issue for a lot of people given so many other threads on this subject. Covid restrictions on families meeting up is a further good excuse to do your own thing and make your own traditions.

After one too many examples of bad behaviour from my MIL on Christmas Day (the final straw for me was Eviangate) I made a pronouncement to my DH (and a vow to myself) that we should and will go on holiday if both time and finances allow each and every Christmas. Most years since we have done this and a week or two of sharp sunlight and retail therapy is good for the soul.

Its a bit easier for me anyway because we are not part of a huge family. My parents are not and have never really been all that bothered about Christmas so am not expected to troop over to see them (not that I am wanting to spend all that much time with them). When we have been here for Christmas we have lunch at the time of our choosing and not having to at all worry about standing on ceremony. Its quiet and far less stressful all round.

Freemee They're super bright actually, various "clever people" degrees and hold interesting conversation (but this makes them cunning and cold in a way that it's hard to ever explain abuse to people. It was done in often shifty ways that are easy to deny, or the whole thing of "Oh well, Berry's parents are so lovely to me so she must have been an incredibly difficult child / liar / generally shit person"). Made me feel absolutely mad for a while, particularly when I was 10 and younger as I had no idea why they didn't love me and what I was doing wrong. "Cunning as foxes" is very accurate.

I'm hopefully going to spend time with my partner and do the parts of Christmas I enjoyed (e.g. decorating the tree, watching silly movies, listening to music) but I'm trying to not put too much importance on it as ultimately it's just a day and we are not religious! My husband is not in contact with his family either which I think, though it sounds bad, eases things somewhat. ❤️

Thank you Attila x I am trying to let go of my obligations to them, because they were great at convincing me it was my fault / nothing was happening and I was being dramatic (in the same way they would have convinced other people). While it was happening I didn't see how wrong it was, because I couldn't see how young and vulnerable I was - there is absolutely no situation where I could behave that way to a child of any age, let alone how young I was when things happened.
I would like to have children within a few years (God and Covid allowing!) and if I hadn't already cut off contact, that would have been the cementing catalyst in going NC.

Thank you both so much, sorry I know I'm going off about myself a lot! I've not got too many outlets for talking about this stuff so this thread truly is so helpful, and I'm very appreciative ❤️

When we rack up a few more funds, I might take your advice and swan off to somewhere hot and tropical for Christmas instead 😉

I don't post on these threads but have read them occasionally.

A few months ago when I told my mother how she was a terrible mother she said to me "well I did offer for you to go into care once and you said no"

I mean I don't think screaming at me that you were dropping me at the police station because I was a nightmare is really an offer to go into care but whatever . Had she said she wasn't able to take care of me and offered for me to go into care so that someone else could take care of my needs I would have jumped at the chance.

Fully no contact now thankfully. Both her and my dad are awful! and have never and will never acknowledge any wrong doing so it was for the best

I'm pretty sure I read in a book or maybe heard/ saw it on a YouTube video/ audio book that adults with cptsd/ traumatic childhood often, unwittingly, attract similar situations/ events/ people through out their lives unless they get better/ heal.

I have been having emdr therapy (which may or may not be relevant) over the last month and also during the last month I have been having events happen to me that are strikingly similar (in how they made me feel) to key (traumatic) events as a kid.

Soooo, to cut a long story short I just got into a bit of a really minor road incident. I'm a fairly new driver and not too confident. I was just driving out of a parking space when a man in a van came flying towards me and rather than reverse he got out if his car and had a go at me in front of quite a lot of bystanders. He wanted me to reverse but I couldn't see his face in the van he was driving because of the light and I just kinda froze.This left me shaky, embarrassed, ashamed, confused (I know, what an over reaction). This happened the other day with a different person and in a different situation. If I'm honest the guy was hostile but he wasn't aggressive as such so lord knows why I feel like I've been in WW2. I will now stew on this all evening and so I'm hoping someone can help?!

I'm just mentioning this because someone on here the other week mentioned that we can attract the same people/ events reminiscent of our pasts. This type of thing reminds me a bit of my aggressive father, I don't want to be a victim, I don't want to be "why me", poor me, and be reduced to a shaky mess over something that is ultimately very trivial. Can anyone offer advice?

I have my first counselling session today, an assessment to match me with a.counseller. I'm really struggling with the idea of saying it out loud. I have a whole range of thoughts in my head, going from maybe it wasn't that bad, am I being dramatic? To this is obviously needed if I'm struggling to say it.
I feel like it's a well sealed box at the moment, and once I open it to someone independent, there is no going back. I'm scared I'm going to realise how really toxic they are and that makes me sad. So far I've been angry and frustrated at their behaviour but something about admitting they arnt the 'nice' people they like to portray themselves as upsets me. Why the fuck is that the case? They don't care enough to be sad at how they've made me feel and want to fix it, yet here I am crying that they might be sad for themselves that I've sought help to deal with my issues from them. What I complete mess.

There's also something daunting about admitting it to an outsider, like I'm somehow in the wrong? That they might judge me for seeking help for this because they've seen worse and I should count myself lucky or something.
I've tried so many times since arranging this appointment to write down bullet points I don't want to forget to say but I physically can't pick up the pen to do it.

I clearly need the help but I feel like I'm starting a very long process that may never have a solid outcome

Your anxiety at taking this big step is totally normal. But you have started an amazing thing for yourself.

You will never be judged or compared. It’s not a competition or a zero sum game.

The your feelings of FOG are understandably rising through the roof as you have taken this step - and IMHO I would listen to that and be clear that how you feel now is EXACTLY why therapy is essential.

They shouldn’t know you are in therapy and I would never discuss it with them. At this time when you are vulnerable due to embarking on deep emotional change - you need to protect yourself and the therapy process with space and distance from them.

Most of the “work” will happen in your conscious thoughts and subconscious mind (even when you are asleep in dreams) in the week between sessions as you turn things over and other memories float up. Don’t let anything (especially them) pollute this or pull you off track by interfering. It’s a private, unique personal journey. Use your focus, energy and headspace to prioritise and protect this time in your life for YOU.

Congratulations.

Strangely, after 3 or 4 years of no contact, I feel a deep and utter rage for the appalling behaviour meted out by members of my family. My mother was shockingly violent, as was one of my brothers, and I was clearly the designated family punchbag.

It took me years to realise that my sister was cast from the same die. Her violence is verbal, highly critical, defensive, and passive aggressive. As a child, my mother would describe her as "highly sensitive". What a load of old shit. She was, and remains, a fucking nightmare.

Anyway - they are all welcome to each other, but jeez, the anger I feel is pretty hard to deal with some days.

When I decided to go NC, I just did it. No explanations, nothing. Just decided nope, no more, and walked away. (I'm not far off 60 btw.)

Wish I had done it years ago and roundly told them all to go fuck themselves and told them exactly why. Perhaps I'm cross with myself because I feel I missed an opportunity to speak up for myself.

No doubt I'll get over it at some point. I am relocating to a new area soon and I have absolutely no intention of letting any of them have my address.

Wish I had done it years ago and roundly told them all to go fuck themselves and told them exactly why. Perhaps I'm cross with myself because I feel I missed an opportunity to speak up for myself
I can relate to this, I have a huge amount of anger which stems from realising that they they pulled the wool over my eyes and I meekly trusted and deferred to them.

Something about admitting they aren't the nice people they like to portray themselves
Pears, my thoughts on this... Part of your identity can be tied up with your family origin ...you feel good about yourself because your people are good people.... that kind of thing, something in you really wants them to be people that you can feel proud of.
they all keep up an act of wilful blindness to try and preserve the good name of the family to keep the illusion going, that makes you a 'traitor' because you are refusing to subordinate yourself for the good name of the group, these are things that have been in implicitly communicated to you over the years they are programmed into your subconscious I think that could be part of why all feels so difficult and conflicted🤔

Hi, I have a Mum who is quite narcissistic and makes everything about her. After a confrontation on neutral ground last year after going NC for about six months she admitted what she did, said she is sorry, started on antidepressants, saw a counsellor. It emerged her parents treated her badly, and threatened to kick her out if she ever got pregnant - a harsh 60's upbringing. Things are now much better between us and she treats me much better but she still treats my stepdad like shit.

Fast forward to this Christmas coming. DH has just told me he doesn't mind having them over for Christmas dinner, but it has to be very simple, no fuss. He would prefer them to come for a Christmas tea, with turkey sandwiches after the main course but indoors only. he wants no fussing about outdoors. If it is outdoors only, because of COVID, he is not going to fuss around over social distancing or eating in the cold. If there is social distancing or meals to be taken in the garden, he will veto it, they will not come. He wants to enjoy a peaceful., relaxed Christmas with no drama.

Now, over the past few months I understand from my stepdad she is tapering off the antidepressants. She has seemed much more depressed on the phone. The lockdown is getting to her and is bringing up lots of old feelings about rejection and abandonment. She is telling me I don't ring her enough. She is starting to ring at inopportune moments and go quiet down the phone. She is emotionally blackmailing my teenage son when he said to her she is calling at an inconvenient time and has been ranting about this to my stepdad, according to him. She would not dare say anything to me unless I show a sign of weakness.

Her behaviour has been generally worse at Christmas (until last year) because she has a lot of unmet needs that flare up.

The dynamic with my stepdad is he phones me up and says I need to calm my Mum down if they have had a row. I say to him that I am not responsible for her feelings any more, since we had our big chat.

DH says he is looking out for me and is worried that Christmas could be ruined. He also says my brother's family have had two Christmases by themselves and we have only had one, the one we had last year. He liked it so much, please could we have another one?

I had already asked Mum and stepdad over to have the Christmas meal with us, indoors, or out, depending on COVID. I suggested to DH we compromise and have a tea at about 4pm. DH said it will be dark and cold and they would have to eat inside, except there may still be COVID restrictions, in which case no visitors if they can't be inside. No fuss.

Another bit of info - Mum has been making presents for the past four months, embroidering, sewing etc, generally setting herself up to be the most generous person for the big day.

Please, someone help me untangle this mess.

Mum

It is not your fault your mother and stepdad are like this and you did not make them that way.

Do not have either your mother or stepfather over for Christmas under any circumstances. Rescind your invite which was likely done anyway because of your own fear, obligation and guilt. Narcissistic people also are crap gift givers and I would think these items will be unwanted by you. Do not forget either that she has trained you from early childhood to put her first with your needs and wants dead last.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and a narcissist parent is a deplorably bad parent. She basically did just enough to let you re enter her dysfunctional world and she has not changed at all. Your stepdad is really her enabler and secondary abuser.

Again I would urge you not to have these people over and have instead a Christmas with your own family unit.

@Pearsapiece
How are you feeling after your first counseling session? I hope you felt safe to open up a little about your past and the therapist was helpful...
Therapy is such a process!
If you don't feel safe with this present therapist realize that it is possibly the fault of the therapist, not yours...There are many different schools of thought on therapy...please don't feel like you have to stick with one if it doesn't feel right. You are entitled to your own unique feelings and perceptions of your issues....no one can refute them and tell you that's not the way things happened .... YOUR PERCEPTION is your reality!
Take care ❤

@Pearsapiece
Forgot this....whatever your feelings are the therapist should validate them and respect your right to your feelings. And then teach you strategies to handle them in the World we live in today.
I told a therapist how I felt about something very real to me and he had the audacity to tell me that I wasn't correct about the way I felt There is no possible way he could have known whether MY feelings were right or wrong...especially since I have major brain processing issues that he couldn't possibly know about. needless to say, I never went back to see him again since I worked out he probably had more issues than I did!

@sweetpea1532 thank you so much for asking. It went we thank you. I felt really safe and that I could say as much or as little as I wanted during this first stage.
I was asked to title my own book and give the chapter headings as like an overview and that was eye opening in itself. I also realised my PND stemmed from me not wanting to give my son the same treatment I had as a child so instead of throwing myself in to be the parents I wanted to be, I stood off and struggled to connect.
I take anti depressants now and that has helped and my relationship with my son is so beautiful and I love him so dearly. My love for him is what's made me assess my upbringing and how much its actually affected me.
I had a good cry during and after the session but my little boy gave me such a massive cuddle and we painted some Xmas decorations afterwards and got all messy!
I put him to bed with a smile on my face because of the big step I've made for me, him and this baby, to be a better mum to them. I've started to value myself enough to seek help. And I'm strong enough to do it and draw strength from my boy afterwards.

Oh, and my mum tried to video call me 3 times today off my dad's phone (because she knows I don't answer to her). I declined each one!

@MumwithAspieTraits 100% agree with @AttilaTheMeerkat

You can see this train crash coming.

There are so many red flags and sirens screaming. Your gut KNOWS this. Listen to it.

Reward your DH with another lovely Christmas and protect your DS - show him that there are consequences for shit behaviour.

Immerse yourself with the gorgeous people who look out for YOU.....not the ones who have for decades treated you badly.

Just accept that your DM has v limited capacity to recover.

Don’t spoil Christmas for your DH and DS. It’s been a shocking year.....they deserve peace and calm in your little cocoon.

@Pearsapiece what a great start you have made. This will have a profoundly positive effect on you and your children. Please keep your FOO far away. Don’t let them steal this opportunity from you.

Do they know you have started therapy today? If so this will be a monumental threat to them - they will attempt to disrupt and gaslight.

@sssloou no they don't. I haven't discussed any of it with them as it would go no where and they would just try and make me feel guilty.
My plan is to quietly retreat and set a precedent going forward while I try and digest what I need to in the background.

The dynamic with my stepdad is he phones me up and says
Who does he think he is??
Don't even answer the phone Mumwith, block his ducking number, leave him twisting in the wind

Sorry butting in, but I spoke about my family stuff the other day and since then I've managed to organise some counselling through my college. I can't stop dreading it though, it just feels like another thing on my already full plate and it's such a draining process to discuss your whole life story (particularly when it's on an online, awkward call) and then if it's not helping, you feel worse. Also that I've had such shit experiences with MH support previously.

Sorry a bit off topic but really struggling to cope today and not worthy of an independent thread. x

@berrygirlie I'm sorry you are feeling so low. The counselling is worth a shot, if you don't feel like you are getting anywhere with it then see if you can get someone else as I have found I've stuck with therapists even if they haven't been a good fit.

I don't know your story hut wanted to let you know you are not alone x

@berrygirlie I hear you. I really hope your counsellor works out. I thought counselling by Zoom would be weird but it’s been good as I’ve not had to cry afterwards in public. It has helped me.

I’ve had two weeks off from the toxic mother in law because of a Track and Trace alert at our end. It’s been BRILLIANT. I highly recommend this as a tactic. We’re now working out the perfect Christmas where we don’t spend time with her. It’s been a hard year with her misery and spite in our bubble and I’d like to finish it off happy. I appreciate how hard Xmas is for many people. It can be very grim.