Rise of the manchildren

[TirisfalPumpkin]

Aware I might be treading on shaky ground here, given that this is a parenting forum. I'm not out and out blaming parents for this phenomenon - I know 'his mother babied him' is the usual excuse, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. I'm trying to understand it better.

It seems a non-trivial % of millennial males are entitled, lazy man-children. I have personally married two of them. They have cost me dearly (both in the 'thousands of pounds' and 'I'm now cynical and don't trust anyone' way). I have read numerous threads here and found myself nodding along to a catalogue of infuriatingly familiar behaviour, so I don't think it's just me.

I mean by 'manchildren': men that are emotionally stunted, have underdeveloped morals and values, respond in childlike ways to adult issues (lie, sulk, whine) and are subconsciously seeking a partner they can put into a motherly role who will carry the mental load of the relationship and household. They often have hobbies that they prioritise over everything else in life. My friendship circles are kind of nerd-culture oriented and it seems to be especially bad here, but I think it is a wider societal phenomenon than just among gamers and geeks.

I am wondering whether there has been some change in the way boys are raised, that makes them more like this - or are girls brought up not to be difficult and therefore challenge it less? Why do their actual parents seem to enable and encourage them when they behave badly towards their spouse? Is society in general becoming more sexist and placing fewer demands on boys and young men? Are there just as many 'womanchildren' out there? My perception is it's largely a male phenomenon but I can think of a couple of counterexamples.

Rants about awful manchild behaviour welcomed too.

Whilst my exh was growing up and wanting to do certain things his father would say "what do you want to do that for?" As a result of being put down constantly my exh never bothered doing anything he didn't want to which included not working if he didn't fancy it, not contributing to the household financially and practically and wasting money on hobbies and getting himself into debt whilst muggins held it all together because I couldn't bear the whingeing.

Actually I haven’t acknowledged changes, the rise of the incel movement, a rise in suggesting that the current educational model doesn’t fit boys, scurrilous attacks on sex quotas suggesting boys/men are being penalised, but I haven’t seen anything that suggests that it is an issue that men need to address. Mostly it’s blaming women. It’s the female teachers, it’s the mothers, it’s the women who won’t have sex with them, it’s Feminism. It’s misogyny and lack of personal accountability developed in a world framework that is still selling men and boys a future based on world that doesn’t exist anymore.

There seems to be a huge issue in society with a lack of empathy. I think this contributes to the man child effect, where men can’t see or appreciate what their partner is doing for them and what they could be doing to make the domestic situation fair.
People have put many reasons down and I agree with a lack of chores and responsibilities as a child contributes. Children need to feel part of the team of the household and contribute to the running of it.
This will affect how they feel about the household chores when they’re older.
I also wonder if the lack of reading books contributes to this.
Reading books contributes to developing empathy and many people are growing up not reading anything beyond what they have to.

It would be wonderful for everyone if men could figure out how to "be" in these modern times. Of course there are good men who do feel comfortable with how things are now, but also so many who appear to be confused and react in the ways listed here.

I think the onus is on good, older men to somehow take younger men under their wing and guide them through to adulthood. Like informal apprenticeship models, maybe the kind of thing a good sports/other activity male leader would do... think there are versions of this in some other cultures.

I’ve just spent an hour reading this thread and just wanted to thank all the contributors, it’s been a fascinating and thought-provoking read.

I have DDs in their 20s so no experience of parenting boys, but I’ve often been grateful for that. Porn, computer games and social media are three issues that seem to present such challenges now for children and teenagers. And they have contributed I fear to the immaturity of the men in their 20s that I’ve encountered. I know of way more women in their 20s who have endured lockdown alone than men, who seem to have run home to mummy or quickly moved a gf in to look after them!

My eldest son (teen) remarked the other day, how he appreciates that I don't clean his room, don't wash his clothes unless they are sorted, have taught him how to use a washing machine. Etc.... as he has friends who are like babies and their mums still drive them to college and put their clothes away! I just point blank refuse to do all the domestic stuff

I have to admit I have no idea what you are talking about. Probably because I have had no experience of it. Before I met my husband I had boyfriends , but that was all about sex , and very enjoyable it was too. Met my husband at university and been married 23 years. Can't remember the last argument we had an argument , never doubted his love , loyalty or commitment. Always puts me and the girls first. Has perfect manners and cleans the hair out of the shower drain thing. He's has his faults. He spoils our 16 DD so she is a total Princess , is crap at golf , hates just sitting on a beach , thinks washing is women's work and never takes the dog out. And the man had a tough childhood at the hands of his mother, who was a violent alcoholic. All the other men I know are highly qualified professional people engaged in serious medical research , they don't lack maturity or confidence. So no, never met a man child .

How come so many of these man children manage to hold down well paying jobs, buy houses, have partners etc.

Could it be that they actually have their shit together more than you?

I would imagine the man children are succeeding professionally by exploiting unpaid labour at home. If you call the exploitation of your partner having your shit together that’s a useful point of view for this discussion, thank you.

They weren't given this unpaid labour by the state. They went out and found someone who volunteered to play that role. Any woman can do the same.

I wouldn't call it having my shit together if I had a partner who I took advantage of.

I'd be deeply ashamed of myself.

Yeah I was actually going to exclude @BigBoosh from my earlier praise for posters, but look: he’s got his shit together and done it himself!

This video is really interesting, and I like how it puts it at the fathers door instead of always the mothers...

It’s a rare person that can override millennia of sex stereotyping to function happily in a relationship where woman is main earner with no or few domestic responsibilities and man is the care giver and household manager.

Volunteered. That is not the experience of many women. Between social conditioning to be the main care giver plus the difficulty in achieving equity at home post children it’s more like conscripted than volunteered. I’m sure there are exceptions but I don’t think it’s the majority.

Volunteered is an almost comically inaccurate word to use in this context.

Anyone who thinks women en masse knowingly and deliberately choose a life of doing all the crap work, hasn't spent much time listening to women. I recommend further reading of MN until they get it.

@HH160bpm

Actually I haven’t acknowledged changes, the rise of the incel movement, a rise in suggesting that the current educational model doesn’t fit boys, scurrilous attacks on sex quotas suggesting boys/men are being penalised, but I haven’t seen anything that suggests that it is an issue that men need to address. Mostly it’s blaming women. It’s the female teachers, it’s the mothers, it’s the women who won’t have sex with them, it’s Feminism. It’s misogyny and lack of personal accountability developed in a world framework that is still selling men and boys a future based on world that doesn’t exist anymore.

I think that's true. It's not women's fault but how do men address it? If for example called for change in the educational system to benefit boys better would feminists back them, or cite it as an attack on girls?

This is the problem with the sexes. MRA's blame women for everything and feminists can tend to blame men or the patriarchy for everything. Men still dominate at the top of the tree (at least among the boomer generation that's now in charge) but boys are falling through the cracks at an increasing rate.

I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of some expert to develop an educational system that doesn't disadvantage either sex.

Just like dismantling the patriarchy would clearly lead to a better result for both sexes.

It's not an I win/you lose problem.

Don't ask me how to fix it though! I've no idea.

@LightenUpSummer

I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of some expert to develop an educational system that doesn't disadvantage either sex.

Just like dismantling the patriarchy would clearly lead to a better result for both sexes.

It's not an I win/you lose problem.

Just a personal view but it can be beneficial to segregate boys and girls anyway by gender at school, particularly secondary school, and tweaking the system to benefit both. There's plenty of all boys/all girls schools that work well.

Boys (and girls) are generally a hormonal mess at secondary school age and could do without the distractions.

BigBoosh I didn't volunteer anything.

I fed my kids every meal they ate because my then husband thought looking after kids was womens work. - If I hadn't fed them they would have starved to death wouldn't they? I didn't fucking volunteer.

And I didn't volunteer to take them to every single dentist/asthma/chiropodist/opticians appointment they had all their childhoods. I took them because they would have suffered serious health problems otherwise.

If one of the parents won't do stuff then the other parent has no fucking choice but to do it - volunteer doesn't come into it.

You have unfortunately shown yourself right up with your comments.

Girls have always outperformed boys academically, just historically structures were built in to disguise it.
For example the 11 plus "pass" marks were different for boys and girls to keep ratios at 50/50
www.historyworkshop.org.uk/secondary-modern/

Or for certain prestigious subjects there were fewer places for women. I know someone in a year of 30 veterinary students in the 60s. There were only 7 spaces for females. Now it's illegal to bar people from places because of their sex, around 70% of vet students are women, because girls are getting higher grades and applying themselves more conscientiously.

It interests me that the answer to this is to revert to making it easier for boys, rather than suggesting maybe boys need to be socialised to knuckle down and comply with rules, like girls are.

Surely the experience of bearing children, and probably nursing them, will mean women will naturally have a greater attachment to children when they are small? Won't this mean women will naturally tend towards wanting to take on the greater part of child rearing for small children? But men could and certainly should be encouraged to take on more of the burden of child rearing, regardless.

"It interests me that the answer to this is to revert to making it easier for boys, rather than suggesting maybe boys need to be socialised to knuckle down and comply with rules, like girls are."

Now I gotta disagree with this. I'm not sure what you're saying here, but in order to succeed both boys and girls needs to be taught they need to comply with rules.

@NotSuchASmugMarriedNow1
I think the point is that if men can do that, so can women. Admittedly, the social pressures are different and I think men in general care a lot less about social judgement than women but women (in general) clearly care more about the well-being of their children than men do.

Calling it a choice or volunteering is the wrong phraseology but there isn't really anything concrete stopping women from being as aloof about their children are men are.

Part of the reason men can is that they know women will pick up the whole rope is they drop it on the floor, let alone "some slack".

There are plenty of men who live a comfortable bachelor's lifestyle. The ones I know are quite reluctant about moving a woman into it and disrupting what they've got going on. I suspect the men who are eager for that to happen are the ones who are looking for a replacement mother.