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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Feel utterly sad and need to tell someone

129 replies

winsterwoes · 29/05/2020 23:15

I guess I just need to write it out somewhere. Not sure if this is the beginning of the end.

Been married for 2 years (together for 3.5), have a 6 month old baby together. Day to day life on the surface is pretty good - we get on really well (I would consider him my best friend), loads to chat and laugh about, built a lovely home together, have a good balance of spending time together and having time to do our own thing, have our own friends and hobbies, rarely argue......

The problem is that when we DO argue (and it’s only ever about one thing : housework) - he turns into the most unreasonable person ever. He has this god-like complex that he can never be wrong, he refuses to listen to my reasoning or explanations, paints me as the one that caused it and the one that should back down. Sometimes I do back down just to move on with life, sometimes I refuse to back down and then we just sweep it under the rug and it stays there until next time.

Today I got so angry while preparing dinner that I literally threw the boiled egg I’d just peeled across the kitchen and stormed out. In my 36 years of life I have never thrown anything in a rage or stormed out of anywhere. I feel like the arguments get me more worked up every time, just because I know what’s coming and I’m beginning to despair.

So, having an unexpected evening alone left to my own thoughts, I’m wondering things like....
Can I be with someone who will not partake in a constructive argument? They are going to happen, so one needs those skills. If I’m getting more frustrated each time it happens, it’s only going to get worse surely. Should I put up with these (fairly infrequent) arguments for an otherwise great life together? I want to maybe voice it to him that I’m contemplating being without him but if I voice it out loud, I can never take it back, it’ll always be there. I want another baby, what if I don’t get another chance? If I leave him, will I ever find anyone else who I get along with so well? If we got a divorce, it would be really quite embarrassing at work and amongst extended family and things. I know some of those are silly things to be thinking.

I feel quite calm but very sad, I just don’t know what to do or say when I see him in the morning. I suppose any and all thoughts are welcome. Thankyou for reading. X

OP posts:
winsterwoes · 31/05/2020 08:47

@vikingwife

Thankyou but not looking for alternative ways to share duties, that comes further down the line when you've actually been able to discuss what the problem is.

Also fully acknowledge that I'm probably inflexible and controlling - again that's not the point, because to even get to that as the reason for him refusing to put the salmon in the oven we need to have been able to have a calm conversation about it all first, which he doesn't allow to happen.

I would like to refer you to my second bullet point in my post at 07:04 on Sat 30 May - it explains clearly what I saw from my perspective and why I thought he was available. Perhaps if he allowed me to say that in person, he could say "oh no but it wasn't like that, I came in for a much needed breather and had to get back to it" or WHATEVER ... and then we would each agree that we were both a bit in the wrong and here's what we can do better next time and hug and kiss and make up blah blah blah. You see?

OP posts:
cptartapp · 31/05/2020 08:51

How often does he see his DC?

HMSSophie · 31/05/2020 09:07

Try The Dance of Anger by I think Marianne Lerner (sp?).

Your forensic defence of yourself is interesting OP. If every time something causes you frustration you want to dissect what the other person did wrong and why it was wrong, in detail, he may well have thought "I cannot stand to have one of those conversations just now".

Alternatively he's a bit of a dick who is struggling.

Alternatively your relationship is moving from loved up, to loving - you know, that stage which is hard work, where a degree of unhappiness emerges as the real person as against the fantasy person, emerges for both parties. Your relationship very new, in the scheme of things. Forgiveness of each other's flaws and some humility on both sides is essential. Not a return to the fantasy of perfection.

Ohnonotnow · 31/05/2020 09:22

Wow! Some of these comments are beyond crazy.
My advice, talk to him when you are both calm, as you have said already, it's not what the disagreement was about it's about effective communication, listening and understanding each other.

winsterwoes · 31/05/2020 09:27

@cptartapp don’t think that’s relevant sorry - it’ll only go and invite comments about his time with them

@HMSSophie I suppose naturally doesn’t everyone want to defend themselves if they think they aren’t in the wrong? It’s obviously also not good to dissect the other person’s wrongdoings each time either. Not looking for that. There has to be balance, which is what we don’t have.

Anyway - thank you so much to everyone for the comments and ideas. I’m signing off from this thread now so probably won’t reply to any further posts. (Also because for some reason I can no longer see it on my watchlist or on the Relationships board, not sure what’s happened there. Can only access via direct link. It’s a sign to move on from it haha.)

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 31/05/2020 10:13

Larry

It is 'a job' but, literally, probably takes 10 seconds, no longer or harder than instructing her husband to put it in the oven.

And no longer or harder than telling your wife, essentially, not to tell you what to do, which is what he was really doing when he could have easily done a 10 second job she asked him to do but refused to.

Are you, perchance, a rather literal minded lawyer? Agreeing to cook together is a friendly thing, not a contract!
Are you, perchance, a person who doesn't cook much, and therefore doesn't understand that when you anticipate having four hands on the job the meal you plan will be a good deal different from one you plan when you know you are going to be the only one cooking?

What if the OP decided that agreeing to cook together was 'a friendly thing, not a contract', and went out into the garden to sit on her arse and enjoy the nice evening stretch instead of cooking? Then when her H went out to ask her about the cooking she could fold her arms and say, 'No, you do it. I can't be bothered. Actually, I have something more important to do.'

He may have known that his children were there but he had no idea one of them would need to be settled exactly when his wife chose to do dinner. Living with someone who enforces this type of 'agreement' regardless of changing circumstances is a nightmare.
The children are there on Fridays. They both agreed to do dinner at a certain time, 7.30, which was the usual time when the children were able to occupy themselves. If he couldn't fulfill his part of the agreement because of something related to the children that came up then he could easily tell the OP that respectfully - 'Sorry, sounds as if they're knocking the living daylights out of each other up there, if I'm not back in ten minutes, send a search party,' is a lot better than, 'No, you do it'. You have no reason to suspect she wouldn't understand. She has spoken well of the children and hasn't expressed any impatience about their presence or his relationship with them. He pulled the childcare reason for not taking time out of his busy life to open the oven door, put a pan of salmon in, and shut the oven, straight out of his arse after first point blank refusing to do it. It was his trump card.

Living with someone who reneges on commitments at the last minute and leaves you with all the work is a nightmare.

More broadly, if you are sharing the care of one child with a partner and he is, simultaneously, looking after 2 more children, do you not think he should be cut some slack? What became of equity of free time within a relationship? Or is looking after a 5 and 8 year old now a 'non job' in your eyes?
In the first place, you have no idea who did the majority of care for the six month old. Since the OP is presumably on mat leave it may well be her.
Looking after the 5 and 8 yo wasn't a necessary thing at the time they had agreed to make dinner together, or they wouldn't have agreed on that time. You are calling the husband an eejit here, unable to make a realistic commitment because he can't tell the time. When there are children in a home of course things can go wrong, but you still plan, or nothing gets done.

"Equity of free time"? What free time? When there is dinner to be prepared and put on the table and both parties have agreed to share that prep, then both parties should either do that or respectfully ask to be excused and offer a reason, not an afterthought.

Playing along with the very strange notion that dinner prep time is also, by some weird warping of the time-space continuum, 'free time', do both parties have the right to help themselves to a drink and simply walk out of the kitchen when the oven is warming up and there is actually nothing else happening that requires your attention? Or is that a privilege reserved just for the husband?

Your 'laundry' list of household jobs are a mixture of 'jobs' and 'non jobs'. Some actually take significant periods of time and some don't.
LOL.
That's the point, Larry. All of the jobs that take a significant amount of time involve lots of little one minute items, one after the other. Maybe you don't do much housework? Maybe you don't notice all the little details?

(And who, over the age of 5, leaves clothes by a laundry basket, anyway?)
It's a problem so common it's a cliche. It's a surprise to find someone so au fait with modern domestic equality has never heard of this phenomenon.
Haworthia posted this earlier:
www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288
I urge you to read it. It could be entitled 'Little drops of water wear away a stone'.

I always find this 'mental load' thing hilarious. It is just normal life , which most people do in addition to a job...It only becomes a 'mental load' if you resent it.
LOL, I am sure you do find it hilarious.
Maybe you think the problem (again a very well known one) that can be put in quotation marks when you have no idea what it is like to have to carry it all yourself or your household will stop functioning? Does your wife pull her weight around the house?

Yes, occasionally, there are people on their third failed marriage, and all for the same reason. Far more often, though, two people get divorced and BOTH go on to find happiness with someone more compatible.
The H here is well on his way to his second divorce, after his second very quick marriage. He hasn't gone on to happiness with another person, at least not yet. It doesn't look as if it's going to happen in his second marriage. His wife is quietly weighing up her options.
Maybe read the thread?

Her husband sounds equally obstinate in that he would prefer the above to just doing a non job himself and having a peaceful evening.
He could have had a peaceful evening if he had invested ten seconds in his relationship, and his dinner. But then he would have been nursing a bruised ego after doing something his wife asked him to do, and maybe that would have spoiled his evening. Maybe his ego needed the boost that putting his wife in her place offers?

Again, if it's a 'non-job', why was it so important to him not to do it?

Is doing 'non-jobs' something he 'resents', do you think?

Shouldn't he get over himself and realise that 'non-jobs' are part of 'normal life'?

Zaphodsotherhead · 31/05/2020 10:25

Did you feel that he was somehow 'disrespecting' you by getting a drink and leaving the kitchen? That he was doing a 'right, I've sorted the child issue, you're doing dinner, so I'm going to sit down, have a drink and put my feet up'? Even if that wasn't what he meant to imply, were you taking it as the implication?

Because I think if that's the case, just good old fashioned 'saying what's in your mind at the time' might work here. Asking him to put the salmon in the oven he perceives as you criticising his (unspoken) desire to have five minutes peace after the meltdown and you perceive his not doing so as belittling you and shutting you back in the kitchen.

If you could both train yourselves to actually come out with 'I feel that you just wanted to sit quietly when I needed a hand in the kitchen' and 'I felt that I deserved a drink and a moment's peace after I'd sorted out a screaming child', then maybe you can talk these things out.

Counselling definitely sounds like a good idea.

Flower8 · 31/05/2020 13:53

Oh i can relate to this with my partner at time's. We don't argue often but when we have done something small tends to blow up.

I've come to realise he's actually very self critical and then feels I'm attacking him or criticising him and he goes onto the devensive about it.

The only way I've managed to deal with this is just sit really calmly and state I'm not having a go or criticising, and then explain my point, any negative or childish reaction i get I ignore, he then seems to realise I'm genuinely just trying to talk thing's through and we can talk about it.

I think the best thing I've learnt is if it begins to escalate i remove myself calmly or politely and carry on as normal

anotherdisaster · 31/05/2020 18:11

Sorry I;ve not had time to read all the replies but just my experience: I was in a 15 year relationship with someone like this. He was never wrong, always turned things round on me and never said sorry. It ground me down over the years and I finally ended things (best thing I ever did).
I've just finished an 8 month relationship with another one! If I tried to talk to him about an issue I had with him, he would immediately go on the defensive and then would go in a strop/huff. He would never ever acknowledge my point of view and although he would often apologise for his behaviour, he always had 'excuses' for it and not that he was sorry for what he did.
I ended things with him over another disagreement and he has now actually completely made up another reason (my fault) why we are finished.

mathanxiety · 01/06/2020 08:26

One problem with 'I feel like a drink and a sit down' at the time when dinner is being prepared is that he could have bunged the salmon in the oven on his way out of the kitchen and still put his feet up for five minutes. A win/win. He chose the I win/you lose option for some reason.

Another problem is that the OP might also feel like a drink and putting her feet up occasionally. Can she do this? What happens to dinner/ laundry/ cleaning the bathroom/ looking after the baby/ getting the shopping list together if she does? Can one of them decide it's time to have a drink with feet up regardless of what they see going on around them - maybe the five year old comes in from the muddy garden tracking mud everywhere while one of the adults is changing the 6 month old's nappy, but there is an adult on the couch with feet up and drink in hand, saying 'I really need my five minutes'. The problem the OP seems to be talking about is one of the adults here constantly taking the piss.

When the issue is 'I won't be told what to do' there are serious problems, and it is not up to a wife to pander to what lies beneath that attitude.

carlywurly · 01/06/2020 17:39

Op, I know you've probably gone now but your situation was me yesterday but I chucked a tea towel rather than an egg.. realising with sheer frustration that my partner of several years just can't or won't contribute to the workload around the house and shuts down discussions after a quick apology.

Something clicked and I just thought - this really cannot be the rest of my life Sad I keep rationalising and making excuses but I thought about it and twigged that if I was with someone who only contributed at the same level I do, I'd feel so spoilt.

I've been thinking about this all day and there are some brilliantly insightful posts on here. I'm off to get myself some counselling. I hope the thread can continue. It's honestly been a bit of a lightbulb for me.

winsterwoes · 02/06/2020 09:53

@carlywurly

Just seen your post now, I'm so glad you found the thread helpful, I also got some brilliant advice and things to think about it from it, stuff I will always keep in mind the next time we argue ....

DH and I made up (we talked, and as some posters said, he did feel like he'd just walked into the kitchen and got ordered around, and then he listened to my perspective and acknowledged how it had looked to me, and agreed that if he just listened to me right after the incident this could have all been avoided, so hopefully lots of learning points for both of us in the future).

OP posts:
MMmomDD · 02/06/2020 10:40

OP - unless you get out of the mindset of - if he just changes and does what I think he needs to, it’ll all be great - these arguments will continue and slowly grind away at your relationship.
Your update is the prime example of it.
‘If he just listened to me it’d all be avoided’....

I think in this instance - it’s more

  • if you weren’t so inflexible;
  • if you didn’t feel resentful of his time with his kids;
  • if you had empathy over him dealing with the tantruming kids ....
Etc. The whole situation could have been avoided.

But your posts and your continuing insistence on detailed point by point explanations of why you are right in every instance - just show that there is not much hope that you would change your side of the equation.
So it will go on

hellsbellsmelons · 02/06/2020 11:14

So glad you managed to discuss it with him OP.
Hopefully that's a big step in the right direction.

winsterwoes · 02/06/2020 11:30

@MMmomDD

I'm not sure what you're getting out of personally attacking me but I can assure you I have no resentment towards him spending time with the kids, and I have plenty of empathy of him dealing with his tantruming daughter.

Regarding the inflexibility, if he'd said "no I can't put the salmon in the oven right now because I need to go do xyz" and then I said "but but but you need to do it right now" ... THEN you could call me inflexible. But that's not what happened. Anyway it's been discussed to death so let's not start that again :)

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 02/06/2020 11:38

MM,

I don't think that is true. Winters had a positive discussion with her husband and achieved a resolution which they were both happy with and can move on from.

Seems the mature way to go about things to me....

Winters,

It is nice to see a thread which resolved so positively for you.

MMmomDD · 02/06/2020 12:40

If the OP was a man - she would be told to start with herself.
As it is - she didn’t resolve it in a way where both parties actually admitted what they’d done wrong.
She specifically said she got him to agree they he did something wrong. No mention of her actually admitting her side in the issue.

And given how the thread has gone - it seems to be the recurrent issue with the two of them. OP thinks that he is always wrong and never admits it. While she is herself exhibiting exact same attitude.
And in this ‘resolution’ the same pattern was clearly displayed. So nothing is actually resolved, not in a long term.
He went along with her point of view to keep the peace.
And in the long term it will cause more and more issues - as she said has been happening already.

But OP doesn’t want to recognise that, and thinks it’s a personal attack. While in fact it’s an observation.

MMmomDD · 02/06/2020 12:45

And no OP. He shouldn’t have said calmly and measuredly - ‘I cant follow your instructions because I am rattled after the kids tantrum’.... it’s strange to assume someone can do they - he is not a robot.
YOU should have realised it all on your own and adjusted your original plan.

And - in your ‘resolving the issue’ conversations a admitting that would have gone a long way to demonstrate that you can look at yourself objectively too

carlywurly · 02/06/2020 12:47

Problem is in isolation it can often look like an overreaction. It's never just the one incident though - it's usually the trigger which generates a response to a pattern of similar behaviour.

I'm glad it's resolved for you op. The telling point will be how it's dealt with next time.

Tiny2018 · 02/06/2020 21:18

Agree wholeheartedly with rsvb on 4th is one.
These types of men will always see you as the unreasonable, dramatic one, rather than be able to empathise with your situation and come to a compromise.
Way too many of them about.
These men have too many leftovers from the 1950's in my opinion.
Got a problem woman? Put up and shut the fuck up is their attitude.

mathanxiety · 02/06/2020 21:41

Hopefully, you can have a further amicable and productive discussion about the sharing of household chores and what each of you sees as equality on that front. Ideally, a grown adult who lives in his or her own home would be happy to do his or her utmost to keep that home shipshape. Ideally each would have free time, plus there would be time to spend as a couple. When one person feels he or she is doing all the donkey work, resentment builds, free time for just yourself becomes ever more precious, and couple time becomes less desirable.

Belikeyou · 02/06/2020 21:56

I'm cringing reading some of these responses.
OP some morons on MN will go through every aspect of your story with a fine tooth comb and have you explaining every single insignificant detail before accusing you of drip-feeding.

It isn't what happened that matters at all, but how what happens is making YOU FEEL. You're living this and people can never get to grips with a written recount of the story really. I've learned this through posting on here for many years whilst being in a desperate marriage.

People won't agree with what I'm about to say at all, but my advice would be:

Get a cleaner for the bigger work.
If you want another baby- have one. But, little things like these are often magnified when a second child comes along enormously and it has contributed to the end of my marriage. If you're angry now and throwing eggs,you'll be throwing plates by the time another baby comes along. Definitely try a bit of relationship counselling if you can. It didn't work for us and I went ahead and had the second baby anyway. So glad I did, but it finished us off as a couple. The only thing I would have done differently now is had the second baby sooner, so I could get out sooner. X

Antibles · 02/06/2020 23:45

How familiar it all is. You are in a power battle, I'm afraid. I'm sorry it's no longer you and him against the world, it's you and him against each other - at least that's the way he's now seeing it. You will have to swallow that bitter pill in order to see his behaviour for what it is.

They are always lovely, easygoing guys these fellas...until you inconvenience them. So there'll only be the occasional thing pre children, easy enough to ignore in the grand scheme of things. Sadly, having small children causes you to inconvenience them massively due to the stress and workload and this is when it really starts. Also you're less likely to bugger off now committed so they can get away with being a bit more arseish.

The amount you inconvenience them now and try to tell them what to do makes you the enemy. You will be accused of nagging, demanding, being unreasonable and controlling. No matter what the issue you try to discuss, it will be derailed as mathanxiety says, into a discussion about small things that frustrates and enrages you and then they can derail into a criticism of your reaction to that too. You end up defending yourself instead of getting him to address the problem at hand.

When they've wound you up enough with their gaslighting passive aggressive ways (because they're not allowed to just hit you and shout shut up woman anymore, so passive aggressive it is) they'll call you crazy and blame your shiny new 'mental health issues'. And these are the good guys!

PA behaviour is the mild man's wife-beating. Such a lovely, subtle, covert way of making a woman miserable. A very clever way to win and exercise power over another person.

Read up about passive aggressive behaviour OP. Don't tell him you're onto him though or he'll find new ways of messing with you.

sawollya · 02/06/2020 23:54

He's training you to never challenge him though.

So even though you're reasonable enough to take some blame, you cannot be reasonable for him. If he is training you to never challenge him by reacting instantly with anger, then you will eventually never challenge him. My x did this training on me. I was FULLY TRAINED UP before too long. I realised that nothing was worth the mood or the sult or the sighs, or the anger, and in the end, I did everything myself. That was the training. I left. Before too long he was training up somebody new.

larrygrylls · 03/06/2020 06:43

Belike,

I am really tired of people saying that objective reality does not exist but is defined by feelings.

What if OP and her husband both feel put upon and sad? Who is right and who is wrong? Whose feelings define the reality of the marriage?

I am not sure it is fair to have a second baby knowing you are going to leave someone (which seems to be what your ‘regret’ implies) unless you both agree to it.

So many people here (luckily, not the OP) can only see a relationship from one perspective.

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