Feel utterly sad and need to tell someone

[winsterwoes]

I guess I just need to write it out somewhere. Not sure if this is the beginning of the end.

Been married for 2 years (together for 3.5), have a 6 month old baby together. Day to day life on the surface is pretty good - we get on really well (I would consider him my best friend), loads to chat and laugh about, built a lovely home together, have a good balance of spending time together and having time to do our own thing, have our own friends and hobbies, rarely argue......

The problem is that when we DO argue (and it’s only ever about one thing : housework) - he turns into the most unreasonable person ever. He has this god-like complex that he can never be wrong, he refuses to listen to my reasoning or explanations, paints me as the one that caused it and the one that should back down. Sometimes I do back down just to move on with life, sometimes I refuse to back down and then we just sweep it under the rug and it stays there until next time.

Today I got so angry while preparing dinner that I literally threw the boiled egg I’d just peeled across the kitchen and stormed out. In my 36 years of life I have never thrown anything in a rage or stormed out of anywhere. I feel like the arguments get me more worked up every time, just because I know what’s coming and I’m beginning to despair.

So, having an unexpected evening alone left to my own thoughts, I’m wondering things like....
Can I be with someone who will not partake in a constructive argument? They are going to happen, so one needs those skills. If I’m getting more frustrated each time it happens, it’s only going to get worse surely. Should I put up with these (fairly infrequent) arguments for an otherwise great life together? I want to maybe voice it to him that I’m contemplating being without him but if I voice it out loud, I can never take it back, it’ll always be there. I want another baby, what if I don’t get another chance? If I leave him, will I ever find anyone else who I get along with so well? If we got a divorce, it would be really quite embarrassing at work and amongst extended family and things. I know some of those are silly things to be thinking.

I feel quite calm but very sad, I just don’t know what to do or say when I see him in the morning. I suppose any and all thoughts are welcome. Thankyou for reading. X

Essentially, this man's relationship history consists of very quick commitment (twice) followed by divorce (once, so far). The common denominator in the early commitment picture is him.

Have you spoken to the ex wife at all about the relationship she had with him, or do you only have his side of the story? Has he said it was 'doomed' and they 'weren't really suited' or does he have any insight into how he might have contributed by his behaviour to the ending of the relationship?

I ask because it is highly unlikely that he has changed his style dramatically in this relationship. I would guess that he had the same psychologically abusive style in his previous relationship too.

I do think there is abuse here. He doesn't listen to explanations or reasoning offered by you, @winsterwoes , with the aim of understanding and finding an amicable way forward. In the course of a discussion he picks up small details to use against you, and thus a discussion turns into a maddeningly frustrating experience for you. He weaponised the tiny detail about 'a small thing'. Instead of just doing that small thing, he told you it was such a small thing you should do it yourself. He ignored the principle that going back on an agreement in a unilateral way makes a mockery of both plans and the whole concept of planning, and he turned that against you too.

He is choosing this when he should be choosing the values of mutual support and mutual respect. All it takes is a willing spirit. He doesn't have one.

It doesn't seem like he respects you or your household work very much from your example. If he really doesn't want to contribute fully and equally to the house then you have a problem

It's not often I drop this one: but LTB!!

I'd hasten a guess that blowing up about housework is not the only red flag.

I wasted years of my life with an abusive prick like this. Never wrong, a slob, sexist. And his abuse only escalated, and ebbed and flowed, until one day it got to a point where there had no choice but to walk away.

Get out NOW. The ripple effect of damage this is doing on you and any DC will only get worse and have longer lasting ramifications on you and them.

I had an ex that was like this. All fine as long as I kept my much shut about him never being home and not doing anything as a family but if I had enough of putting up with it and said so he would completely ignore me, not even look at me while I was saying it, and grunt. I didnt bother in the end as my thoughts and opinions obviously didnt matter I was obviously supposed to be content with what I had and he could do as he pleased and basicaly live in our house like a hotel and nothing more, get rid, you will be happier

I’ve woken up to a few more comments and whilst there’s a lot of amazingly helpful stuff in there, I do feel the need to clarify the following points :

. Yes he does like cooking together, we do it often, and he does like cooking at home and we’ve pre-agreed a set of easy/quick to cook dishes at some point in the past. We’d also in this instance pre-agreed that as we’re having takeaway on Sat night we will have home cooked food on Fri night. So the fact that dinner was being cooked, was in itself not the issue.

. Somehow I’m being painted as an unreasonable person who is oblivious to parenting duties and dragged a parent away from a tantrumming child and forced him to do menial tasks. That’s not the case AT ALL. From my perspective how I saw it as it unfolded was - he opens the kitchen door and walks in, asks what’s happening, I say I’ve started dinner and picked such-a-such a dressing tonight, he gets a drink from the fridge, we discuss what the tantrum was about, child is not crying anymore and both kids have gone up to brush their teeth and the fact that we’re discussing the tantrum in the past and that he’s chilled enough to get a drink and have a chat implies to me that he’s now available. Oh and the baby was already fed and in bed for the night by this point, so caring for the baby was also not required.

. So there’s more backstory [and I know from reading enough other threads on MN that people hate the OP leaving out details, but the thing is that it’s impossible to know what details people want when writing the first post and without writing a 10-page essay]. When doing the salmon dinner dish in the past, he has always done the fish/dressing part and I’ve always done the veg/salad part (as he hates chopping). This works perfectly for us. In this instance I started on ‘his’ part because as you all say that was the correct thing to do (well done me) and then when I THOUGHT he was available again I just assumed that he would take it over. What he needed to communicate was that he hadn’t come into the kitchen to report for dinner making duties (and yes I use this language intentionally as some have painted me as some inflexible robot type creature), but that he’d literally just come to get a drink and he’s really sorry but can I finish dinner tonight because x y & z.

. Those of you saying that he should absolutely be spending every second that he has with the children and that he absolutely should not leave them in front of the tv on their own etc etc. Come on, get a grip. He’s picked them up, driven 45 mins with them chatting away about their lives over the last week, hung out with them when they got home for ~1.5h, they do their own thing for half an hour before bed, and then he’s still got the whole weekend to spend with them when they wake up in the morning. Sounds pretty normal to me. Those of you saying that I should be the one that should do dinner on a Friday night - I’m sorry but you don’t know what we do the rest of the time to lead to us agreeing to do dinner together on this particular Friday night, but again that’s really not the point here.

. Some people are implying that maybe I’m a ball of anger who rapidly escalates situations by throwing things across rooms at the drop of a hat and that maybe I should just pipe down. Haha. Again, not like that. The throwing came after he had already made a scene out of me protesting his refusal to put a dish in the oven and me trying to explain things from my perspective (as I have been able to in this post) and he was just shouting over me insinuating that my view is ridiculous instead of acknowledging that my perspective is a valid one - the throwing came in a moment of pure frustration at not being allowed to put my point across.

. I see more advice about dividing and conquering tasks like cleaning and dishes and things - that’s good advice and sort of what we already do. As I said in original post, day to day life is fine really, we generally know what we’re doing (share some things and divide others). We did have a cleaner but then lockdown happened and I wasn’t keen on her anyway. When we’re allowed to, it’s on my list to appoint another.

To summarise :

I agree with those of you that say we’re probably both in the wrong here. I would be totally on board with him saying ‘look, I needed to change the plan and for you to be a bit more flexible’ and us sitting down and actually discussing things so that we can see each other’s side of the story. Sadly he doesn’t like to listen to my side. Definitely will be suggesting counselling to try and get this kink worked out.

Thankyou all for your advice and I hope you have a lovely weekend. X

I think you may benefit from counselling. You sound inflexible from the salmon incident... it sounds like you place a high value on spending time together & completing a task together. Which is not a bad thing, but divide & conquer is a better method when you have kids.

Calling him back to put the salmon in the oven comes off as controlling in my opinion & I would find that annoying. It would take literally 10secs to complete that task yourself, but you insisted he come back & do it. It sounds like you could have had the meal already in the oven but waited for him to come back to put sauce on the fish & pop it in the oven on principle. Cooking together sounds like a fun thing to do together occasionally, but not as a rule which can’t be deviated from. From my reading he does do housework & your inflexibility May be the actual problem. You were the one who snapped & threw something, yet he is the one being called abusive? I don’t get that, but hey that’s Mumsnet for you!

It would be much less stressful if everyone had their own set roles - whoever cooks, other cleans up or something similar.

It really does not matter what people at work think about your relationship.

Nar i see a bigger picture here, im surprised at some of the responses tbh. He believes the housework/cooking is your job, because your a woman, when ever you pull him up on it he shuts you down, hence the frustration. Your temper is escalating due to the lack of respect op.....i dont think things will get better, deep down hes a misogynist, they never change unfortunately.

It's going to be hard to move forward with a man who shouts over you and needs to win conversations, leaving you feeling that reason and explanations are hitting a brick wall. He will use the egg throwing as ammunition against you in time. Be careful about such gestures.

I think you are dealing with a type known as 'Mr Right', btw.
...he was just shouting over me insinuating that my view is ridiculous instead of acknowledging that my perspective is a valid one
m.facebook.com/notes/rebecca-cummings/abuser-profiles-from-why-does-he-do-that-by-lundy-bancroft/480862655302912/

You’ve hit the exact issue in your last post.

Insinuating that my view is ridiculous rather than acknowledging my perspective as a valid one.

That is a really bad sign. Even if your view is ridiculous! (Which I don’t think it was, although it was a silly argument but you know that). Trying to shut down your views because they differ from his and don’t paint him in a good light isn’t great.

I know you said you don’t argue about big things but what will happen when something big comes along you don’t agree on - and with a child it definitely will? How will you resolve what happens?

@vikingwife
Those of you saying that I should be the one that should do dinner on a Friday night - I’m sorry but you don’t know what we do the rest of the time to lead to us agreeing to do dinner together on this particular Friday night

They had an agreement to make dinner together.

He wanted to shrug it off without discussion.

When she pulled him up on this he didn't want to discuss his reason (if there was one) for changing the plan they had made.

Instead of offering her a respectful explanation as to why he didn't want to contribute to the dinner prep, he shouted at her.

This is his pattern when she confronts him:
He has this god-like complex that he can never be wrong, he refuses to listen to my reasoning or explanations, paints me as the one that caused it and the one that should back down.

@winsterwoes
Go to marriage counseling if you feel you need to convince people you tried. But it won't change this man's approach.

I would talk to the ex wife if I were you.

Thank you @mathanxiety

You've only been together 3.5 years. You say you hardly argue but you have detailed many arguments.
Yes, they may seem trivial as they're not about cheating etc but more relationships break down due to housework issues than cheating. If you're already at the stage of frustration after 3.5 years then if you don't do marriage counselling then it is very unlikely your marriage will survive. I've been married 13 years and we do 50/50 housework and I've never even got close to throwing anything in frustration.
You say his last relationship was doomed from the start as she was pregnant early but yours was also a 'whirlwind'. Most people will be together years before marriage and kids. Seems your husband has an MO (possibly love bombing) but is not willing to put in the hard work of a long and equal partnership.

I agree that’s it’s not great if you can’t work through a disagreement.

With the dinner situation, is one of you stressed and in a rush? I can’t work out if you’re rushing to eat before children go up to bed? Just can’t see when you eat and when they get put to bed?

I think that there are a lot of people who feel that they have inflexible partners when they are, themselves, inflexible (or both are)!

You both sound like you point score rather than work together and have fun. You threw an egg because he would not do a silly non-job?! That is very extreme. Why would you call someone to put something in the oven, except to make a point?

How do you react when he says he needs to change plans due to settling his children. Are you reasonable and calm or do you get cross?

I have a strong suspicion that, were he to post, his post would be close to a mirror image of yours.

And a 5 and 8 year old still take a fair bit of looking after.

You could definitely benefit from counselling as your methods of dispute resolution are not helping either of you.

(And were a man to post what you have, the egg throwing would be treated VERY differently).

@mathanxiety
Completely agree.

OP, lots of people have a very low bar when it comes to relationships.

A god like complex that shouts you down and won't listen or engage in discussion and drives you to throwing something at him in frustration may be your bar of a healthy relationship.

Don't be surprised if for others it is a deeply unhealthy relationship.

To me, always being shouted down and not listened to would be abusive.

But hey, that's my relationship bar.

This is his way of dealing with a partner, shouting them down.

If you are happy to be treated like that, fair enough.

But I absolutely stand by my assessment that is abusive towards you and a lazy waster.

Best of luck to you.

OP, I'm sure there are those times when he's perfectly reasonable, such as some of those you've stated in your first post this morning.

However, this is something I used to do all the time! - I constantly rationalised ex's unreasonable/abusive behaviour and gave him excuse after excuse, until it grounded me down into almost nothing. In the two years since I left him, my life is improving exponentially.

Excuse typos, I'm tired.

I bet his ex-wife thought it was a "whirlwind romance" too. I'm not sure why you think your situation is so different to what happened with her - of course he's going to paint it as doing the noble thing of trying to make it work for the dc. But sounds exactly same scenario from a distance.

To me it sounds like you have an amazing relationship but occasions argue about housework. This is the real world and things aren't perfect. Either try and work through it using new strategies, accept it or get counselling. Throwing a good relationship away for something so trivial would be very sad. I think MN'ers are very biased and unrealistic. If a man so much as breathes they are calling him abusive and telling OP to leave ASAP. We could all list a fault in our relationship and the answer on mumsnet would be to leave, when that isn't the answer. I think you should stay together and get counselling

I have encountered a few people like this in my time. I do think you need to talk to him about his arguing style, as it were, and how you feel he is not listening to you or engaging. Some people do seem to develop a very defensive and accusatory arguing style. The key is to give him the chance to realise it and change, although it may take time for him to do both these things. He will not want to see that he is in the wrong, but if you are clear how important it has become, he will try.

If he won't try to change or at least work something out which doesnt make you so miserable, then there is a problem.

I have a friend who is the loveliest guy ever, but in an argument he is stubborn and gaslighting and he will not let it go or admit anything. By a tacit mutual agreement, we are now avoiding direct conflict, cos it doesnt get us anywhere. But he is not my OH so it is different.

I couldn't be with someone who wouldn't argue constructively and always made me in the wrong. But I would be prepared to give them time to work on it, if they agreed to do so.

xxx

It doesn’t sound like you have a bad relationship. I can’t believe a full scale argument stemmed from him not putting the salmon in the oven. I think there is more to this if you dig deep.

I may be completely wrong, but I'm just throwing this into the ring...

Arguing is actually a skill. Dealing with conflict in a sensible and respectful way is incredibly hard and takes a lot of emotional maturity. I say this as someone who was (and to some extent, still is) terrible at arguing.

For a start, I will do anything to avoid conflict. And when it does happen (which it inevitably does, to everyone) I used to collapse with overwhelming emotion...walk out, cry, go silent. I have learnt to control this somewhat...to try not to raise my voice, to try and listen to the other person (even when I totally disagree with their view), to keep my emotions in check. But it is really really hard.

Your husband sounds like he just doesn't know how to argue and goes nuclear. Of course, he could be, underneath it all, a mysoginist twat who is trying to shut you down. However, it sounds to me like he could be someone who just doesn't know how to handle a disagreement. But it would take a degree of humility and self-awareness to begin to tackle this issue.

I've also got to say that I would be quite annoyed by the issue that caused this arguement...being asked to do something that you could easily have done yourself, just because you previously agreed to make the supper together. Jus sayin.

It's hard to say whether he is a decent bloke or not given this info, though. My ex was (and still is, to those who don't cross him) "Mr Lovely" and when I met him I thought what a fantastically funny, kind, clever, even self-deprecating man he was and how well we got on. But the arguments started when he wouldn't pull his weight and just could not ever be wrong. He'd blatantly lie and gaslight me just to convince himself he was in the right.

But because he was Mr Lovely and we had such a "great relationship", I made excuses for years and just kept trying to get through to him, thinking surely such a lovely man couldn't actually want to leave me with all the drudge work, it must just be that he hadn't understood it or that I was being unreasonable somehow.

It took me years and years to understand how he ticked - he could do charming and wonderful till the cows come home, as long as he got 100% positive feedback and adoration. If was asked to do something he didn't want to do, or even worse criticised (and I did complain, for example when he'd said he'd do something and never did it, which was a lot), he'd get very aggressive and wheel out the gaslighting and shutting down. As I began to understand it all I began to notice how passive-aggressive he was and how he could switch on the charm to get what he wanted, and it all fell apart for me.

I'm not saying this man is the same, but it's a possibility to be aware of. You can go for years clinging to the idea that your partner is lovely because you don't want to let go of it.

He sounds lazy and of the opinion that wifework is your job and he won’t lift a finger above and beyond what you explicitly ask of him - hence why you were annoyed that he didn’t take the initiative to put the salmon in the oven... forcing you to ask him to do it.

It’s exhausting when you have to shoulder the mental load as well as the physical load. And I have no time for that tedious old counter argument “Just tell him what to do and he’ll do it!” No. Capable adults don’t need to be told the bloody obvious. They are simply choosing not to understand/not to see the dirt that needs hoovering, etc.

Read this. It had a profound effect on me. I sent it to my husband and, although he was upset (he thought I thought he was disrespecting me deliberately. I knew it wasn’t deliberate) he didn’t stop leaving dishes and glasses in the sink or in the dishwasher (although his knee jerk reaction was to say he didn’t have time in the mornings to do such things... LOL 😳)

www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

Meant to say he DID stop, not didn’t.