Lonely in my marriage and DW not interested. How do I move forward?

[DeterminedHippo]

I’ve been married to DW for 14 years, together for 19. We have two kids, 17 and 14. We’re both approaching 40.
I work full time and DW works close to full time. We share the house jobs and both have weekends off together. We have what I think is quite a typical family setup. We’re all healthy, the kids are happy (as teenagers can be!) and we are financially sound in our current situation. I would say our family life is very good. Friends often comment on how lucky we are and how we seem to have it much better than others around us. I would tend to agree on the face of it.

For many years we have had intimacy and general closeness challenges in our marriage. I feel incredibly lonely. Personally I am struggling to deal with these feelings more now than I used to, as I would simply bury the issues and hope things would improve; trusting DW’s assurances they would. When the kids were young it was because they tired her out. Now they’re older, it’s work or some other spurious reason.

As I approach 40 and we’re thinking about the commitment of a new mortgage, and following the untimely death of a close relative 6 months ago I’ve come to me realise life is short and I don’t want to spend the rest of my life in this situation. How can I willingly remain in what feels like a loveless marriage where I feel constantly rejected and unwanted, even if DW feels all is fine? Someone who I don’t feel truly loves me despite saying she does?
Right now I feel like I’m here for the kids, and although I would desperately like our marriage to remain intact I can’t live like this forever.

In January I laid it all on the line to DW in what was for me a final attempt, and told her things must change. I am willing to do my part in whatever it takes to make it happen. Her response was simply “I know I need to step up” and she promised to make more effort for our relationship, but here we are 4 months on and nothing has changed from her.

I do a fair amount of work around the house including dishes, hoovering, all the ironing, bins, finances etc and have gotten better over time at what DW calls “seeing what needs to be done” (but to her standards). I always ask what I can do to help once I reach the point of thinking everything is in order too.
I’m not perfect, and have often asked her what I can generally do more or less of to improve her life and she says “nothing”. She has commented many times that I do a lot more than her friend’s husbands, and they’ve often commented in front of us both that they wish their DH’s were like me. Again, I’m not perfect but I must be doing some things right…

The way I have come to summarise our position is that DW wants the comfort and security of the marriage as it benefits the family, but doesn’t actually want the husband part of the marriage. Something she always denied. She always says the kids are her number one priority which is fine, but she has never said where I sit on her list, and says once she has invested her time in them she is simply too tired to think about me.

Lack of sex is one of the issues in our relationship; but more so for me is the lack of general love and affection. There’s almost no closeness, no cuddling, hand-holding, kissing etc. She never willingly initiates any contact. I’ve noticed when I attempt to cuddle DW, her arms immediately cover her body between us like an unconscious defense mechanism, or are down at her sides limp. When I’ve mentioned this she dismisses it saying it’s not intentional, there’s no meaning to it and I am overthinking it.

DW often cites tiredness as a reason to avoid intimacy and I certainly think it’s a valid reason, so I’ve tried to take some of her burdens but whenever I do, she fills the empty time with something else to do to keep busy. It doesn't explain however why she never asks for or is receptive to non sexual closeness.

We both go to the gym. She is incredibly attractive, looked upon by her friends as the “hot one” yet she doesn’t see it. I’m not “fat” but do have a dad bod which she says she prefers over a muscular man. When I suggested I could improve my physique to be more attractive to her she asked me not to change my look as she likes me how I am.

Over the years we’ve fallen into a natural routine where there is no intimacy at all during the week, and we may have sex once a month, always on a Sunday morning, always for less than 10 minutes as she says she is not into “all the unnecessary foreplay”. If I don’t ask for it she will say something like “I suppose you want some then?”.
As soon it’s over she gets up and on with her day and it’s like a box has been ticked for her. She does seem to enjoy sex but has told me she simply has no need for it more often than that. She claims she never masturbates and I have found no reason to believe she is lying.

Nights are always a no; always citing tiredness even on days where she has not worked and it’s been quite relaxed. When I’ve explained I have a need more often than once a month she has said “sorry but that’s your problem”.

On the weekend mornings when she doesn’t want sex or is on her period, she will sometimes offer to get me off, which used to be nice, but now she complains and says things like “right I’d better sort you out to keep you happy, but be quick” which actually is very off-putting as it’s clear she doesn’t want to and is doing it out of some obligation rather than for my happiness. I’d rather she didn’t do this.
For info, DW is not on contraception and I have had the snip.

I’ve tried mixing things up, being spontaneous, adding some excitement etc but this is always rejected.
I’ve tried moving the focus away from sex and onto her. For example, whilst DW was out with her mum one Saturday I cleaned the house, made sure it was super tidy and prepared a candlelit dinner. DW got home, looked at the table, blew the candles out and said “thanks but I have no time for that”. That really hurt.

I try to take her out every month for a date night. She never asks me to take her out or suggests anywhere. I have to arrange it all. Previously if I surprised her with a night out the first thing after “where are we going?” would be “doesn’t mean you’re getting any”. This made me think she feels I only do it to get sex, so I have worked hard to disassociate the two and ensure I don’t press for sex after as I fear it will simply reinforce her comments. I figured in time this might change her view but it hasn’t. She says thanks for a good evening and goes to bed.

Because of lockdown we’ve missed our date nights so I recently suggested we focus on us and have a “staying in date night”. I would cook a nice meal, we could both dress up and just have a nice evening out at home with each other. She agreed, but on that evening she said “I can’t be bothered with getting all dolled up” and just put her PJs on and spent the evening in front of the TV.

I’ve previously spoken to a couple of friends about it all and they suggested I should simply back off any attempts for sex, intimacy or closeness and see if she comes to me. She does not. I have gone for periods of up to 3 months, where I have tried things like no contact, non-sexual contact only etc and when I do she simply trundles along quite happy with that situation. Nothing changes.
I’ve tried to talk to her about this but she just tells me that nothing is wrong, and it’s just the way she is. I’ve asked her to come to counselling with me and she’s refused saying she doesn’t need it, and if I do then it’s my problem to resolve.

If I push conversations like this any further, even being careful that I approach them as an attempt at solving the issue, not placing blame, then she simply flames up and goes into a defensive position of refusal to talk.

I’ve wondered in the past whether she might be having an affair, but this situation has been too consistent for too long, and there are no other signs for me that this is the case.

I don’t know where to go now, but I am keen to do everything I can to ensure I am doing what I should, and not giving her reasons to reject me. I feel that if I can’t be the best version of me for her, I can’t expect her to step up for me.

So I’m lost. Do I give it up as a failed marriage and move on, or do I try something else? If so, what?

Thanks for reading!

I don’t know OP, there’s a lot of complicated ideas in this thread and maybe they’re right, but I kind of think she just doesn’t fancy you anymore unfortunately.

Presumably you were both into each other at the start of your relationship? If so, it’s not likely to be about her just not liking sex per se.

I was in a long term relationship where I stopped fancying my partner. I felt guilty about it for a long time and was very conflicted because I felt like I still loved him and we were very comfortable together. In the end though we broke up and it was for the best. We’re still close friends. Obv it’s more difficult for you having children to support.

Some people just can’t be intimate with people they don’t fancy - I’m one of those people. I can’t fake it, even hugs and kisses feel uncomfortable, and I can’t ever go back to fancying someone once the feeling’s gone. My exes are all permanently in the friend zone.

If you both face up to it, maybe there could be some sort of cohabiting solution until the kids leave home, since it’s not that far off?

Insightful post @FlaskMaster

@flaskmaster you seem to have missed so much of what I have said. Ive explained repeatedly how it is not just about sex and how I've tried to move it away from a focus on that to offer a more relaxed and non obligatory position.
I'm not sure where you get the idea what was offered was offered unwillingly. I've not said or suggested that. She is not the type of person to do something she doesn't want to. If she was, she'd likely do it more than once a month!
I find your last sentence particularly interesting as you seem to have assumed I don't give you a toss about her wants and needs, or happiness which is simply untrue.

I don't know if you're convincing yourself of any of that, but you're certainly not convincing me. She doesn't even like hugging you, she clearly didn't want the sex you had with her every month. That was a problem for you because you didn't like that she showed she hated it. If she had put on more of a convincing performance you wouldn't be complaining. And sometimes she couldn't even bring herself to do it, so she'd get you off by hand and ask you to hurry up - this is a very obvious sign she hates it, and yet you'd do it anyway because you preferred using her despite her discomfort to not getting any sex. It's a disgusting way to treat someone you're supposed to love.

Maybe a bit harsh there, but there are some things to consider.
What strikes me is that you talk about your wife as though you don’t know her very well. You’ve been together twenty years , yet you can’t communicate about what you’re both really feeling.
I am curious as to how you interact on a day to day basis . You sound like you have a great family life but I wonder if all the effort goes into the kids not each other? What do you talk about on your dog walks? Do you laugh, share the same outlook, like the same things? Do you really connect with each other emotionally? Without that , the lack of real intimacy shows in bed. Good sex is based on a real connection and deep trust. Otherwise it’s just a mechanical exercise. Sounds like this is what your wife is is experiencing.

My first ever LTB.
You sound lovely and it seems you have tried your best. Life’s too short to put anymore time into this marriage

I knew someone in your position a few years ago. The lack of intimacy was the only issue for him in their marriage.

I advised him to decline the pity/duty sex. He started doing that and his wife got angry. She accused him of having an affair, as she said he couldn't possibly go without sex for that long and must be getting it somewhere else.

He continued not to have sex with her, then she threatened him with divorce.

He didn't want a divorce purely for financial reasons. His wife didn't work, despite their kids being grown and they'd left home. She had no reason not to work after the kids went to school....she just didn't want to.

So he then resumed having sex with her to avoid divorce...and he said she was much more enthusiastic about it....initially anyway...the enthusiasm was just to avoid divorce.

He did tell her he felt she didn't want it and was just doing it for him and her response was that he should just be grateful to get any.

OP.... as I said earlier in the thread. Decline her lack luster offer next time and continue to do so. Don't be like a dog who is thrown a bone and can't resist.

I'm not sure where you get the idea what was offered was offered unwillingly.

By saying "I suppose you want some" that doesn't come across as something she wants, rather that she's doing it for you.

It's like she's doing you a favour.

Some women have a problem with initiating sex and they don't want it to seem like their idea. Like someone I spoke to who said his wife would send him a text when she wanted sex... and that he should approach her for it.

He could not just approach her when he felt like it, it always had to be with a text message and he had to approach her.

Only when she sees you're not prepared to live this way, will you see a difference.

My own insight is that yes you should stop taking the sex she does offer you, because it’s really not being offered in a way that suggests she actually wants to do it. I no longer fancied my ex partner but did not know how to tell him, I also didn’t really understand it myself but I too would go through with monthly sex to make him happy and stop bothering me, but this did make it worse as I was giving him the wrong signals. I think sometimes I wished he would turn me down because he would know I didn’t really want to do it. He never did. So I lost more respect for him.

On the same note I see why you don’t turn her down because it’s the only opportunity you get and you hope that this time is the time everything improves. I think you need to stop being in denial but also looking for answers - she’s maybe never going to tell you why this has happened, or what you could do to change it. Fact is, it’s happening and you are not happy, so you can’t keep looking to her to be the key that unlocks some hidden passion. It’s just not there. You need to stop trying to make it happen and either stay the way it is, or leave

@FlaskMaster

I think you are being very harsh on OP - it doesn't appear to me he's coerced her into sex in any way. He's attempted to initiate in (as far as we know) the normal way, and he has (apparently with kindness) let her know that the lack of intimacy is a problem for him - which is again entirely reasonable. She's never told him "that's it" and to stop trying - she's just given him excuse after excuse. Do you expect him to just say to her: "Those are just excuses - you just don't want to fuck me!"?

Which brings me on to...

@Menora

...it perhaps now IS the time for OP to call it a day on a sex life with his wife, as Menora suggests (unless OP thinks he can persuade her to go to marriage counselling/sex therapy). But in relation to Menora's finishing words "You need to stop trying to make it happen and either stay the way it is, or leave", there are other options if the marriage otherwise works for OP and his wife - OP could attempt to negotiate an open marriage, or (for completeness and I'm not recommending it) cheat.

@Rockandahardplace

Do you expect him to just say to her: "Those are just excuses - you just don't want to fuck me!"?

Why not? That is almost certainly what’s going on, pretending otherwise is how they’re in this situation in the first place. What’s to be gained by carrying on pretending?

@AndSheSteppedOnTheBall

Why not? That is almost certainly what’s going on, pretending otherwise is how they’re in this situation in the first place. What’s to be gained by carrying on pretending?

I agree eventually you need to call it a day (that is, you shouldn't "carry on" pretending as you put it), but what typically happens is that the sex life gradually reduces and the excuses gradually increase. At what point does it stop being believable? And from the perspective of the partner who just wants to be intimate with their DP - you WANT to believe the excuses, because the alternative is crushing, so perhaps carry on believing them longer than you should. That's just human nature. My beef with FlaskMaster's comment was that it seemed to be suggesting that OP was being unreasonable by carrying on trying, and to me there was simply no evidence (from his posts, anyway) that he had taken it too far as of yet.

He was unreasonable to fuck her whilst it was clear she didn’t want it.

Seriously, that’s fucked up.

@rosiepony

I may have missed something in a previous post (if so, my apologies - and please point it out to me), but when did he say that he had ever done that?

He did say: "She does seem to enjoy sex but has told me she simply has no need for it more often than that."

He did NOT say: "I fuck her even if she clearly doesn't want it".

I am rather concerned that people are stepping in and writing their own narrative here, because for some reason or another the DH must be in the wrong, and they are more than happy to twist (or even ignore) the facts to make it so. That's also fucked up.

I should just add that I don't think either OP or their DP are in the wrong here - I think it's just a really sad situation which probably neither of them can do anything about.

I really sympathise with OP and his partner, and also his kids if they can't navigate their way happily through this to an outcome which makes them all happy (together or separately).

I know, I know I feel for the guy, really I do. But he says they do it once per month and the horrid things she says and the nasty blowing out of candles etc.

So she’s either a fucking sociopath or reading between the lines that part of her has been broken (by the marriage, not blaming him).

Her saying ‘I suppose you want some’ is clearly indicating that she doesn’t. So for him to say yes and actually go through with it has killed any affection she had for him.

She can’t even hug him FFS. This is the father of her children and the man she loved when she married. It’s a really sad situation but I feel most sad for her.

The only thing that makes me feel less sad for her (and more sad for him) is that she is not being honest with him (probably) - rather than making excuses and offputting comments, she ought to just tell him that the intimacy ship has sailed for her.

From reading OPs posts the main thing I get from this is confusion - he has no fucking clue what is going on, and that's because the messages he is getting from his wife are badly mixed up. I mean, how can you reconcile the following statements and not go completely mad:

"Her response was simply “I know I need to step up” and she promised to make more effort for our relationship" positive

"There’s almost no closeness, no cuddling, hand-holding, kissing etc. She never willingly initiates any contact. I’ve noticed when I attempt to cuddle DW, her arms immediately cover her body between us like an unconscious defense mechanism, or are down at her sides limp." negative

"When I’ve mentioned this she dismisses it saying it’s not intentional, there’s no meaning to it and I am overthinking it." positive

"DW often cites tiredness as a reason to avoid intimacy" positive

"she never asks for or is receptive to non sexual closeness." negative

"she says she is not into “all the unnecessary foreplay” negative

"If I don’t ask for it she will say something like “I suppose you want some then?”. very negative

"As soon it’s over she gets up and on with her day and it’s like a box has been ticked for her." negative

"She does seem to enjoy sex but has told me she simply has no need for it more often than that." positive

"When I’ve explained I have a need more often than once a month she has said “sorry but that’s your problem”." very negative

"she will sometimes offer to get me off, which used to be nice," positive

"but now she complains and says things like “right I’d better sort you out to keep you happy, but be quick”" very negative

No wonder the poor guy doesn't know if he is coming or going! It is of course possible that she is very confused as well, although perhaps more likely that she is just doing what she feels she needs to do to keep the marriage together and her family intact.

@rosiepony“So she’s either a fucking sociopath or reading between the lines that part of her has been broken (by the marriage, not blaming him).“
OR - the most likely explanation is that she is emotionally involved with someone else (predominantly online from what OP says of their lives).
When people are unfaithful it leads to them feeling confused and giving mixed messages, being callous and then then backing off, seeming narcissistic and cold, but then throwing some crumbs of comfort so as to not upset the apple cart.
She is miserable-but managing to sustain her needs by finding attention elsewhere.
I don’t know any of this of course - but it is an explanation that is unavoidable-rather than she is mentally deranged/psychotic or deeply depressed and yet consistently outwardly content?
Anyone on the receiving end would I think immediately recognise the mind fuckery of being with a partner that is hiding an affair.

@Babaoreally

I think her behaviour is probably equally consistent with either:

(a) she's having an affair; and
(b) she likes her husband, enjoys her family life, but her feelings for her husband don't support an intimate relationship anymore.

Both of those would give rise to feelings of guilt over not having sex with her husband, resulting in the "crumbs of comfort" being thrown occasionally.

Given that there is no other apparent evidence of an affair, of the two options I'd be inclined to stick with option (b) based on Occam's razor...

This is never a nice situation for either side but the phrase flogging a dead horse probably applies somewhat. How long will you carry on giving 100% to someone who doesn’t want it

My comment about stopping having sex with her was not to accuse OP of doing anything wrong, but to just say that I do see how this dynamic ends up killing off feelings. It’s a lot to do with her lack of honesty, which I think she is aware of on some level hence giving him monthly sex

She’s aware she has to ‘keep up appearances’ to her DH hence the monthly sex or he really would leave

she's just given him excuse after excuse. Do you expect him to just say to her: "Those are just excuses - you just don't want to fuck me!"?
Yes. She's giving excuses because she feels having sex with her husband is a duty she should ensure even though she doesn't like it. Op also seems to feel this way. Nobody needs an "excuse" not to have sex. You either want it or you don't. She's telling him she doesn't want it, he's insisting she answer "why not" as if she owes him an explanation, so she's providing an excuse.

She wants out of the marriage, but wants him to do all the hard work of having to initiate divorce. She's offering him a bare minimum of sex so he can't claim he has a sexless marriage and she's still a loving spouse. I'm sure she's quite convincing that she's willing to have that sex, and like a starving man being offering food it's very hard for him to resist.

RockandHardPlace this is my take:
"Her response was simply “I know I need to step up” and she promised to make more effort for our relationship" she wrongly feels she has a duty to have more sex with op, op also thinks this and pressures her.

"There’s almost no closeness, no cuddling, hand-holding, kissing etc. She never willingly initiates any contact. I’ve noticed when I attempt to cuddle DW, her arms immediately cover her body between us like an unconscious defense mechanism, or are down at her sides limp." This is what happens when you keep having sex with someone who doesn't want you to.

"When I’ve mentioned this she dismisses it saying it’s not intentional, there’s no meaning to it and I am overthinking it." She sees it as you having a go at her about her attitude as well as the lack of sex. She defends this by saying nothing's wrong.

"DW often cites tiredness as a reason to avoid intimacy" because you refuse to accept "I don't feel like it" and she feels she needs to give an excuse.

"she never asks for or is receptive to non sexual closeness." Because who wants to snuggle with someone who uses your vagina as an unwilling wank sock. This is a natural reaction to someone who has engaged in sex with you which you didn't want.

"she says she is not into “all the unnecessary foreplay” she's not into any of it. She wants it over with as quickly as possible because she hates it.

"If I don’t ask for it she will say something like “I suppose you want some then?”. You shouldn't need to ask for it. Most people make a physical approach and it's a natural progression from kissing etc. This doesn't work for you because she doesn't respond in a "yes please" way to your advances - because she doesn't want it. Instead of taking this as a no, you resort to directly asking for it verbally. Or she feels pressured to offer, but in a way that clearly conveys she doesn't want it. And despite all this, you do it anyway!

"As soon it’s over she gets up and on with her day and it’s like a box has been ticked for her." Yes, she endures something she hates for your benefit and then she puts the horrible experience out of her mind.

"She does seem to enjoy sex but has told me she simply has no need for it more often than that." Does she? Does she really? Do you care?

"When I’ve explained I have a need more often than once a month she has said “sorry but that’s your problem”." Why are you telling her you "need" sex more than once a month? Because this says she should provide for your needs by spreading her legs whether she likes it or not. You don't tell someone you love how often they have to service you sexually. Either you have sex as a mutually enjoyable activity or you don't do it. It's not a service for her to provide for you.

"she will sometimes offer to get me off, which used to be nice," disgusting. She didn't want it, she offers to service you, you did it despite it not being enjoyable for her. Now you wonder why she won't come near you or give you cuddles. Do you expect affection from a used tissue? That's what she feels like.

"but now she complains and says things like “right I’d better sort you out to keep you happy, but be quick”" this screams that she hates it. You cannot be oblivious to this. Yet you do it to her anyway.