Lonely in my marriage and DW not interested. How do I move forward?

[DeterminedHippo]

I’ve been married to DW for 14 years, together for 19. We have two kids, 17 and 14. We’re both approaching 40.
I work full time and DW works close to full time. We share the house jobs and both have weekends off together. We have what I think is quite a typical family setup. We’re all healthy, the kids are happy (as teenagers can be!) and we are financially sound in our current situation. I would say our family life is very good. Friends often comment on how lucky we are and how we seem to have it much better than others around us. I would tend to agree on the face of it.

For many years we have had intimacy and general closeness challenges in our marriage. I feel incredibly lonely. Personally I am struggling to deal with these feelings more now than I used to, as I would simply bury the issues and hope things would improve; trusting DW’s assurances they would. When the kids were young it was because they tired her out. Now they’re older, it’s work or some other spurious reason.

As I approach 40 and we’re thinking about the commitment of a new mortgage, and following the untimely death of a close relative 6 months ago I’ve come to me realise life is short and I don’t want to spend the rest of my life in this situation. How can I willingly remain in what feels like a loveless marriage where I feel constantly rejected and unwanted, even if DW feels all is fine? Someone who I don’t feel truly loves me despite saying she does?
Right now I feel like I’m here for the kids, and although I would desperately like our marriage to remain intact I can’t live like this forever.

In January I laid it all on the line to DW in what was for me a final attempt, and told her things must change. I am willing to do my part in whatever it takes to make it happen. Her response was simply “I know I need to step up” and she promised to make more effort for our relationship, but here we are 4 months on and nothing has changed from her.

I do a fair amount of work around the house including dishes, hoovering, all the ironing, bins, finances etc and have gotten better over time at what DW calls “seeing what needs to be done” (but to her standards). I always ask what I can do to help once I reach the point of thinking everything is in order too.
I’m not perfect, and have often asked her what I can generally do more or less of to improve her life and she says “nothing”. She has commented many times that I do a lot more than her friend’s husbands, and they’ve often commented in front of us both that they wish their DH’s were like me. Again, I’m not perfect but I must be doing some things right…

The way I have come to summarise our position is that DW wants the comfort and security of the marriage as it benefits the family, but doesn’t actually want the husband part of the marriage. Something she always denied. She always says the kids are her number one priority which is fine, but she has never said where I sit on her list, and says once she has invested her time in them she is simply too tired to think about me.

Lack of sex is one of the issues in our relationship; but more so for me is the lack of general love and affection. There’s almost no closeness, no cuddling, hand-holding, kissing etc. She never willingly initiates any contact. I’ve noticed when I attempt to cuddle DW, her arms immediately cover her body between us like an unconscious defense mechanism, or are down at her sides limp. When I’ve mentioned this she dismisses it saying it’s not intentional, there’s no meaning to it and I am overthinking it.

DW often cites tiredness as a reason to avoid intimacy and I certainly think it’s a valid reason, so I’ve tried to take some of her burdens but whenever I do, she fills the empty time with something else to do to keep busy. It doesn't explain however why she never asks for or is receptive to non sexual closeness.

We both go to the gym. She is incredibly attractive, looked upon by her friends as the “hot one” yet she doesn’t see it. I’m not “fat” but do have a dad bod which she says she prefers over a muscular man. When I suggested I could improve my physique to be more attractive to her she asked me not to change my look as she likes me how I am.

Over the years we’ve fallen into a natural routine where there is no intimacy at all during the week, and we may have sex once a month, always on a Sunday morning, always for less than 10 minutes as she says she is not into “all the unnecessary foreplay”. If I don’t ask for it she will say something like “I suppose you want some then?”.
As soon it’s over she gets up and on with her day and it’s like a box has been ticked for her. She does seem to enjoy sex but has told me she simply has no need for it more often than that. She claims she never masturbates and I have found no reason to believe she is lying.

Nights are always a no; always citing tiredness even on days where she has not worked and it’s been quite relaxed. When I’ve explained I have a need more often than once a month she has said “sorry but that’s your problem”.

On the weekend mornings when she doesn’t want sex or is on her period, she will sometimes offer to get me off, which used to be nice, but now she complains and says things like “right I’d better sort you out to keep you happy, but be quick” which actually is very off-putting as it’s clear she doesn’t want to and is doing it out of some obligation rather than for my happiness. I’d rather she didn’t do this.
For info, DW is not on contraception and I have had the snip.

I’ve tried mixing things up, being spontaneous, adding some excitement etc but this is always rejected.
I’ve tried moving the focus away from sex and onto her. For example, whilst DW was out with her mum one Saturday I cleaned the house, made sure it was super tidy and prepared a candlelit dinner. DW got home, looked at the table, blew the candles out and said “thanks but I have no time for that”. That really hurt.

I try to take her out every month for a date night. She never asks me to take her out or suggests anywhere. I have to arrange it all. Previously if I surprised her with a night out the first thing after “where are we going?” would be “doesn’t mean you’re getting any”. This made me think she feels I only do it to get sex, so I have worked hard to disassociate the two and ensure I don’t press for sex after as I fear it will simply reinforce her comments. I figured in time this might change her view but it hasn’t. She says thanks for a good evening and goes to bed.

Because of lockdown we’ve missed our date nights so I recently suggested we focus on us and have a “staying in date night”. I would cook a nice meal, we could both dress up and just have a nice evening out at home with each other. She agreed, but on that evening she said “I can’t be bothered with getting all dolled up” and just put her PJs on and spent the evening in front of the TV.

I’ve previously spoken to a couple of friends about it all and they suggested I should simply back off any attempts for sex, intimacy or closeness and see if she comes to me. She does not. I have gone for periods of up to 3 months, where I have tried things like no contact, non-sexual contact only etc and when I do she simply trundles along quite happy with that situation. Nothing changes.
I’ve tried to talk to her about this but she just tells me that nothing is wrong, and it’s just the way she is. I’ve asked her to come to counselling with me and she’s refused saying she doesn’t need it, and if I do then it’s my problem to resolve.

If I push conversations like this any further, even being careful that I approach them as an attempt at solving the issue, not placing blame, then she simply flames up and goes into a defensive position of refusal to talk.

I’ve wondered in the past whether she might be having an affair, but this situation has been too consistent for too long, and there are no other signs for me that this is the case.

I don’t know where to go now, but I am keen to do everything I can to ensure I am doing what I should, and not giving her reasons to reject me. I feel that if I can’t be the best version of me for her, I can’t expect her to step up for me.

So I’m lost. Do I give it up as a failed marriage and move on, or do I try something else? If so, what?

Thanks for reading!

See above, Wed 29-Apr-20 12:02:36 - people do feel shame or pressure to have sex even if they don't want to. I still hear women being described as cold or frigid if they don't want sex.

Maybe the wife feels ashamed and embarrassed, and doesn't want to talk about it for that reason. Maybe she's a coldhearted cow. Maybe we don't have to decide who's to blame at all, as it makes no difference to the decision OP has to make.

Dear op, sorry to hear that your marriage is not going well. But your kids are very grown up now. Recently I had a conversation with a colleague who was kind of in a similar situation some years back. She and her DH had a word and decided that once their children went to uni then they will live separately and they agreed and they did. They remain as friends. They both have their own relationships for several years now though they never divorced may be her ex DH still wants to financially take care of her old age and the kids. However it kind of working very well for them. If your kids are 17 & 14 already what about just the two of you go away for a little while to talk about just your own future. I m not suggesting anything but your situation may be more common than you think. But yourself and your DW need to come to a mutual understanding and respect for each other. 40 yo is still very young considering your kids are already in their teens but make a decision quicker the better so you have the time to rebuild this relationship or make plans to move on without damaging anyone you love and yourself. This is only from my prospective. In the end of the day only your very self knows the reason keeping you in this relationship.

@Sallycinammonbangsthedruminthe - truly excellent advice!!
Honestly OP, if there is any chance at all of ever winning back your DW or even gaining a life less miserable it’s this! Take it.

@Samedaysameshit

Agree. Same with my friends All their wives not interested other than when either pissed or feel they should to keep the peace. All in their late 40’s and 50’s. They have just become resigned to it and now get their kicks in other ways, pretty much living together but with so many hobbies they don’t cross each other’s paths much. All for the sake of the kids who are similar ages to OP’s. It’s grim that so many marriages end up this way. All that love and passion eroded over 20 years of daily drudgery and slog. Those of you who still have this in a relationship of that long are very lucky indeed.

I’m sure there are many women who would say the same about their husbands too.

Maybe the wife feels ashamed and embarrassed, and doesn't want to talk about it for that reason. Maybe she's a coldhearted cow. Maybe we don't have to decide who's to blame at all, as it makes no difference to the decision OP has to make.

Regardless of the reasons behind them, her actions are a bit cruel and it's clearly taking a toll on the OP. No one on here seems to blink an eye at calling men bastards when their behaviour justifies it so I don't see why it shouldn't be pointed out that this wife is behaving poorly.

And if a woman did post exactly what the OP has posted, no one would be bending over backwards to defend or excuse the husband's behaviour. There would be pages and pages of 'cherchez la femme'

I regularly encourage men and women not to play the blame game. Here, OP sounds very much on top of what's going on, and not as if he needs reassurance that it's her, not him who's at fault.

I'd have suggested that the wife could be having an affair too, if any of the usual signs were there. Doesn't sound like it in this case, to me - in particular, the gradual drop in sex over the years rather than an out-of-character change.

Hi all, thanks for all the replies. I’ve been actively reading your posts and thinking a lot about my predicament. Not sleeping for 3 nights certainly gives you time to think!
This is not all about sex. It’s also about the intimacy and physical closeness of a partner. It’s about wanting someone who hugs you and makes you feel loved. Someone who doesn’t make excuses every time you lean in for a kiss. Someone who says “I love you” first, rather than only ever says “love you too” as a direct response. Wanting someone who makes you feel like they can be bothered to make an effort for your relationship.

One of the reasons I posted initially was to try and understand what I may be missing in all of this. Is it something I am doing/not doing? Am I not meeting her needs in some way?
I’m also very aware there are two sides to every story, but when the response is so closed, and “nothing’s wrong I’m fine” and refusal to talk or mediate, it’s impossible to know how to resolve it.
I don’t want to look back in 20 years and feel I made a huge mistake – one way or the other.

I do think what some have suggested regarding getting sole counselling may help. At least I can try to get my head straight.
I will also look to take advice on financial matters as on the face of it from initial online assessments I will be paying child support and spousal maintenance, which calculate to more than I could reasonably afford AND manage a new property. She would struggle to downsize as she will still need 3 rooms with both kids (different sexes) at home and no likelihood of that changing any time soon. It would make no sense for her to move house either, as any other property rental here is no cheaper. Also due to both our jobs and the school, we are well situated and I would not want to disrupt our youngest’s crucial school patterns. There is scope however for me to live further afield out of the city which would reduce my costs a bit.

There’s a lot of comments here asking if I have held back some vital info such as cheating or being abusive etc. I can honestly say that’s not the case here. My original post was long as I wanted to try and cover all the points that I thought might come up in question. I would be open if there was something. In fact, if there was, it would probably be quite self-explanatory in that case.

There’s a few comments that have come up repeatedly I thought I’d cover:

• Neither of us are heavy drinkers. DW drinks more than me, and we rarely get drunk.
• I have never cheated on her. I actually feel sick at the thought of even discussing our situation on this forum as it feels like I’m scheming and being dishonest behind her back!
• I have never hit or abused her (whether verbally or physically).
• She has not shared with me any history of previous abuse or trauma.
• We spend most of our free time together doing family things or walking the dog together etc.
• I don’t disappear off on lad’s holidays, footie weekends or all day cycling trips.

• There’s been a few suggestions she is having some kind of affair. I honestly don’t see how she would achieve this. We are very open in terms of our whereabouts and she’s not one who “works late” or gets held up etc (just for clarity I don’t monitor her movements or expect her to report into me). When she’s out on her own it’s normally with her friends or family and there’s always pics all over the family WhatsApp or social media of their time together so I’m as confident as I can be that she’s not slinking off with another man (or woman!).

• Re the comment of She often "jokingly" says things like "you love me too much to leave me" and "it would cost you too much to leave me" – I think this is a denial/defence mechanism rather than any manipulative or selfish view. I think she does it to play down the problems.

• I was asked how I know if she is enjoying sex when it happens. I base this on a couple of points – 1 . She says she does (OK she could just be saying it). 2. Sometimes the physical signs are very obvious. 3. When she does rarely want it, she will initiate it via the “I suppose you want some then?” type of comment without me asking. If she didn’t feel this very rare physical need, she wouldn’t ask for it …would she? Considering how she is otherwise happy to say no or push me away the rest of the time, why do it on these occasions just for my benefit?

@whatdoyoudonow - How would she react if you were to tell her that you are planning to separate?
I imagine she will be horrified it is actually happening, promise she is going to work on it, and then I’ll give it some time and nothing will actually improve.

@Atleastthedoglovesme - I realised we needed to work on our intimacy - but his grumpiness and constant judgement and snapping at me (making me feel unloved) made it impossible to feel turned on by him.
I wouldn’t say I am judgemental but I do admit I can get grumpy with the situation sometimes – normally when I am feeling really low and rejected. I do try to explain to her that I feel lonely and rejected and she just says “sorry” but with no feeling and no attempt to explore the situation further.
Sometimes I cannot help being upset. What bugs me is a lack of understanding of why the answer is “no” – regardless of whether it is actual sex or something else like a cuddle. I’m not talking about the times she’s cooking dinner or in the middle of her favourite show. I mean the times when she’s not busy. I guess I just struggle with “I don’t feel like it” – there must be an underlying reason and I feel she knows what it is, but refuses to share it. And refusing to talk openly or go to counselling means this is not going to get resolved.
I do try my hardest not to let it got to me as I know it won’t change things. I do know that sulking about it isn’t going to make her think “oh in that case I’ll make an effort”. It’s tough to keep happy and accept it though.

@PippaPegg - You might get somewhere if you said to her let's not touch genitals for 1 month but we can touch in other ways. So you can hug her, give a back massage, kiss etc. Therefore she knows she is safe to receive your affection and there won't be a battle or a sulk attached.
I tried this while back and all that happened was it just rolled on the same. The “once a month when she wants it sex happened”, but no other intimacy or contact including outside the bedroom. Cuddles etc that I initiated remained cold and empty. No attempts from her to reach out to me were made.

It's about sharing and being vulnerable. She doesn't want to be vulnerable around you. She doesn't feel safe to lean on you. You have to fix that if you want to save it.
Thank you. How do I achieve this is she simply refuses to engage?

@wearywithteens - Quarantina - it was the response to one post - ‘selfish and lying’. It’s the assumption that there is something manipulative or cruel about it. I just feel sorry for a unknown woman who is completely castigated because she doesn’t want or feel comfortable with sex.
I don’t think she is selfish or lying. I think she is simply in denial or does not care. I also don’t think she should be completely blamed for the situation especially as you all only have my side of events. The problem is I cannot figure out whether this is a case of “she doesn’t want or feel comfortable with sex” – with ME or with ANYONE. Also, see previous comments about it not being all about sex.

DetetminedHippo - You're engaged in "why chasing" ultimately it doesn't matter why she doesn't want sex or intimacy with you. She just doesn't, you can't fix her only she can do that. Letting go of that hope is the only way I've found of coping. Accepting that your marriage is currently "as good as it gets" and is as good as it will ever get, and living with that choice is the only way to avoid resentment. All in my experience of course.

Considering how she is otherwise happy to say no or push me away the rest of the time, why do it on these occasions just for my benefit?

Would you be feeling this conflicted about leaving if you weren't having any sex at all?

Would you be feeling this conflicted about leaving if you weren't having any sex at all?
I guess not... But then it wouldn't be this half way house which has just about kept me hanging on...

Cuddles etc that I initiated remained cold and empty
How do I achieve this is she simply refuses to engage?

The relationship has deep problems which no doubt stem from years of entrenched resentment. Yet you claim not to know what has caused them. You are acting like you are genuinely lacking in ideas as to why she is behaving this way. It makes you sound like you have low emotional intelligence. Also this

Sometimes I cannot help being upset.

What does that look like? Shouting, sulking, crying? Again, it makes you sound very unaware of your own emotions and your own behaviour and the impact that may have on your wife.

You need to search the married red pill on reddit.

Oh FFS, Pippa no he does not. He's not some fucking incel for God's sake.

I think you need to insist she talks to you honestly and openly. Don’t take no for an answer. If she won’t engage with you, leave. You really can’t accept this any longer. You’re selling yourself short. Someone else will love you and desire you. Go out and find her.

"You need to search the married red pill on reddit."
Except I'm not a fan of what boils down to manipulating my wife and treating her like shit to get sex, thanks.

Animals don’t mate in captivity.

I haven’t read the whole thread, so apologies if I’ve missed relevant information. It sounds to me like she does not love you any more, having a low sex drive would not stop her saying she loves you or giving cuddles and kisses etc (unless she thought that was going to lead to you expecting sex-doesn’t sound like the case though ). I have a low sex drive for various reasons and I’m still very very affectionate with my fiancée. I think occasionally something turns her on or she’s in the mood and she has sex with you to satisfy an urge, but I’m not getting the impression this is done out of love and genuine desire for you, based on how cold she is the rest of the time, it sounds like she has an “itch” and you can “scratch it”. She’s not really being honest with you and is making no attempt to try to fix the problem (I think because she knows deep down she can’t make herself love you again), so I think your only real solution is to either carry on as you are and accept this is your marriage or separate.

Op, again only from my prospective, if she s not abusive then it doesn’t matter how she behaves in general or whether there s a third party involved. People may or may not change due to life experience or hormonal, physical or psychological reasons. The bottom line is letting go ones conform zone is hard especially something we have clung on daily for many years. Whenever I find it hard to let go of something or accept a new change I remind myself “not thing is permanent”. She is her own person.
You both have to decide how you go forward from here without any blame games. Stay to work on a new relationship or to part but most importantly respect each other. In this way you are still setting a good example to your kids. Whether you remain together or not hopefully in years to come you both and the kids still can meet up and have a drink or two in a pub occasionally.

Dear OP, have just read your post and some of the responses. This is not about different sex drives, or whether she is in love with your or still fancies you on anything but a superficial level. Reading your post back, who is doing all the work in this relatiionship, all the compromise, all the effort, all the adjusting, trying new things, reasoning and everything else? While I applaud all your efforts to address the issues that you have, none of them are addressing the route problem, which is your wife's obvious problem with intimacy. Sexual closeness is just one aspect of intimacy so don't be distracted by the other withholding strategies she employs to avoid genuine closeness with you. There will be an underlying reason for this but unfortuatenly you can't take responsibility for resolving it, that has to be her process and she has to WANT to address it. Many, many people want to be in partnerships and couples but then work very hard at creating distance within the relationship; that is when we are at are most vulnerable, when we let another person see who we truly are. You are someone who obviously has an enormous amount to give and from what you have written extremely capable of enjoying and maintaining a relationship where true intimacy is at the heart. You need to think long and hard about whether you are prepared to settle for effectively being single within a marriage. Your wife may well be open to change with the right support but for many people continuing in denial and practicing withholding is what gives them a feeling of emotional safety. It takes huge courage to change that and the tragedy here is that you sound like the sort of man who is prepared to do what it takes to support her. Just be yourself and don't make the mistake of thinking it's something that you are or aren't doing. I hope you can claim a future that works best for you, whether it is in this marriage or outside it.

You've comprehensively covered many questions asked.

Do not live in regret. I don't think you can do any more than you have.

I think a couple of pps mentioned something you should really think about. Staying while not happy, then you're lumbered with looking after a spouse for the rest of your life if they get I'll.

If you decide to leave then, everyone will call you all sorts and trot out "In sickness and in health", not knowing you were deeply unhappy.

I know a woman this happened to. The marriage was a sham...but she wouldn't leave because she was the only earner...and she didn't want to have to pay him spousal support.

He became ill and she was stuck. He has since passed away, but she was so angry with herself for not leaving earlier.

Life's too short.

She just doesn't want to have sex with you. "I suppose you want some then" does NOT mean she wants to and you know it. It means "whilst I don't want sex, I will allow you to use me for it for as long as I can bear to do so". And you did it. You've killed all the intimacy, all the love and all the trust right there.
She doesn't like it, both of you know that but you have relentlessly pursued it and taken it knowing it was offered unwillingly to placate you. No wonder any form of closeness with you disgusts her now. You've ruined it. Probably beyond all fixing now, especially because your goal is still sex. Not to make her happy, not to stay together, just to make her offer you more sex.
There's probably no genuine love or respect left for either of you at this point so I would seek an amicable split. Next time find someone who's wants and needs you're actually interested in, as well as your own.

I totally agree with CHIRIBAYA.
Perhaps consider professional help or find a good counsellor.

@FlaskMaster
I have to agree with you entirely.

Have you heard of the Five Love Languages?
I can completely understand why you feel the way you do, but you say she does say she loves you and almost like she doesn't think there is an issue.

Understanding the way you both give and receive love can make a big difference (if you both then put the work in based on the new understanding, of course). There's a book about it you could suggest you read together?

She could just have fallen out of love with you and it was nothing you did. With my first 2 long term relationships, I stopped wanting to have sex when I lost feelings for them. Not their fault, we just grew apart and I can't have sex with someone unless I'm feeling it.

With my last 2 exes, it was because they were controlling, didn't pull their weight at all with housework and childcare etc so of course despite those feelings I tried everything to make it work because of the kids. This led to a few years towards the end with little sex and very little enthusiasm from me.

It sounds like op is an amazing father and husband so she just doesn't have those feelings for you anymore. Neither of your fault. But it is pointless continuing it because she will end up hating the sight of you and you will feel very resentful and worthless.