Just need to share - no solution

[Witchesandwizards]

I met my kiwi husband 13 years ago in London, I am 48, he is 42 and we have two children, 10 and 7. We moved to NZ October 2019 against my wishes, but my husband always wanted to come back.

It was always an understanding that at some point we would move to NZ but this was decided before children, before my parents became frail and it kept getting put off as we built a successful and comfortable life in London with a close network of friends. I hoped that this would mean we didn’t have to move. By the time he decided we should move, I didn’t want to, but my husband held me to a ‘promise’ I had made 12 years earlier, and despite a lot of arguments, we set the wheels in motion and moved 6 months ago.

Immediately I felt homesick and suddenly realised that I had taken my life for granted, but emotionally I still felt in control and we threw ourselves into finding a house. And when we moved into that house, I looked forward to our container arriving and then it was Christmas. I spent 4 months either expecting things to improve or busy with the holidays. I still cried, we still had arguments, but nothing could prepare me for how I felt when the kids went back to school.

At the start of February it hit me like a ton of bricks that I have left most of my family and all my friends, my career, the home we renovated together, the city I love and my country of birth. It dawned that the rest of my life could be unhappy, living in a place I hate and don’t belong. At almost 50, I don’t really have much chance of building a life that is as fulfilling as my old one - I feel bereft and trapped. The best way I can describe it is that it feels like I’m in a coma and someone is trying to turn off my life support and however hard I try to yell, I can’t make them understand that I’m alive. I feel trapped in a nightmare - I have lost all control over my life. It’s a horror movie. I can’t even look back at last year and all the planning and believe I actually came. It’s a blur. I don’t know how I got on the plane.
Everything I do reminds me of an occasion, place or person from home. Hundreds of times a day. Music makes me sad, photos make me sad, social media makes me sad. I’ve always been the sort of person who can compartmentalise my problems, and still get up every day and find something to enjoy, putting a face on through hard times and still functioning well at work and socially. But now I only function for the children and nothing brings me joy. I have deserted my parents when they need me most, I argue and fight with my husband in front of the children, I don’t earn a living and I am horrible to live with.

Consequently, we are having terrible marriage problems - I’m not playing ball and embracing life as he wants me to, and he says I am negative. He is the classic extrovert and I am a natural introvert but with extrovert ‘cover’ when needed - he thinks I should socialise more to get out of my rut, find a job (after a 24 year career in advertising, I can’t get work for logistical/childcare reasons, age and now probably recession), and is pissed off that I don’t want to hang out with his family all the time (I don’t particularly get on with them). In return I have been absolutely vile to live with, lashing out (not physically) because I blame and resent him for my situation. He is now talking about separation but has said I can’t take the children home so I would have to stay here with 50% access, spending half my time alone in a country I never wanted to live in. I don’t know if I love him, I can’t see the wood for the trees.
I know I am depressed, but what good are anti-depressants, I need a time machine.

If you got this far thank you! There is nothing anyone can do to help but writing it down maybe helped. Or maybe not. 3.30am and I'm done x

I'm currently looking for jobs in the UK, the Australian market has really contracted due to Covid. I'm just praying that DD will return with me if I need to go back.

The risk of raising children overseas and then returning to the UK at 18 for uni, is that you will need to pay international fees as you won't have paid tax in the UK for the prior 3 years.

It sounds like you are already confident that you would not be able to return to the UK Witches - you have an advantage in that you would be allowed to remain in NZ if you separate at least.

Are you eligible for any government assistance yet, or are there wait periods? I'd probably be getting my ducks in a row, look at re-training, getting the best legal advice that I can (if you express concern about the drinking, family environment and his obnoxious behaviour), would that give you more leverage in any way?)

There's some advice here - it would seem that decisions on international relocations by the court are dependent on balancing the effects of the loss of family support and engagement vs general well being. I am absolutely not a lawyer but if you could argue that the children's well-being would be impacted by his family dynamic and the loss of variety of activities, could you have a case?

uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/8-622-3123?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true&bhcp=1

That's terrible for you Pinot - so sorry :(

I worry about it too - my only "benefit" if you like is that I've been able to take my boys back to England every year since we've been here (until fucking CV19, that is!) so they have friends and well-known family there too. If I had to return to the UK, they would come with me - but the only way that would happen is if something terminal happened to DH, otherwise I wouldn't stand a chance. But they have both said they would like to live in England, or work there when they're older, so who knows.

Witches has already had access to proper legal advice - all info is useful of course but she has already taken that step, and NZ appears to be far more rigid than Australia over "habitual residence" (which sucks, by the way, and should be made MUCH clearer on immigration pages, if it isn't already!)

Still waiting for someone to invent that teleport machine so we can all go back to see our own families much more easily...

Nrtft yet, and I'm sure alot of pp's have come up with some practical solutions. I just wanted to say I know that feeling well as you described in your OP. I am seemingly trapped in a situation (have been for years) and can't see a way out of it, but have to keep hoping there is a way. I am sure there is a way for you. Stay strong and you will get through this.

Oh Pinot, that is a terrible position to be in. Is he physically abusive?
I can't imagine having to stay with DH or be deported. Presumably this exposes people to an even greater risk of abuse as well if any children can't go with the spouse who is deported. It seems so backwards as it leaves victims powerless.
As (the other) Witches said, I have had good legal advice and while the news for taking the kids back isn't so good, I am in a better financial position that I thought (and that he thinks) and should receive at least 70% of our assets here.

I would be in the same position as you if I end up having to stay until they are older - by then their lives will be here. But maybe the boredom and lack of opportunity in NZ that pushes most young Kiwis to explore the world will act in my favour. I'm also worried about university, I just always imagined they would go on the UK.

There is nothing in the immigration process that highlights potential issues with habitual residency. I naively assumed every country would be the same.
Interestingly I found this yesterday - it would not apply in our case as it does relate to physical domestic violence, but it's a move in the right direction.

www.sutton.co.nz/grave-risk-a-new-precedent/

Thanks for the link - scary reading!!

@ThumbWitchesAbroad - I'm second on the teleport machine!
My only slight hope for this year is that our flights are Korean Air and Seoul is a good route. Coming back? Who knows, maybe I'll get stuck in transit

"There is nothing in the immigration process that highlights potential issues with habitual residency. I naively assumed every country would be the same."

That is actually outrageous, that there was no warning whatsoever about the "habitual residence" situation. It's almost false advertising - not really because it's by omission - but they should warn people that it's a "once there, stuck there" thing!

@EngagedAgain What is your situation? Are you happy to talk? I have found this thread very helpful and somewhat therapeutic - I guess similarly to the journal my GP suggested I write. x

@ThumbWitchesAbroad
As soon as you enter children on your immigration form it should flag the issue.
It’s nuts that this would apply even if we were two Britons here for a couple of years and one wanted to return.

Do you know how NZ differs from other countries?

After an ok day yesterday, I’ve had a wobble this afternoon, probably because I dozed off a couple of times while reading, waking with a start and UK flashbacks.
I just feel so bloody lonely.
It’s hard to speak to people back home, I feel guilty for being so self absorbed when they have worries, the time difference is a fucker so I can I only fit in one call a day and I’m a little envious now they are starting to see what lockdown might look like. I know it’s a whole heap of shit there, but they have each other and something to look forward to.
Then guilt and worry about my parents.
Such an awful mix of emotions.
At least DH is down the list for today!!!

He emailed to say he would BBQ a leg of lamb for Mother’s Day so I suggested he saw his mum as he’s not done MD for years with her. “Shall we surprise her at the beach house?”.
Er, no, you can. Still illegal at level 3 and that place is toxic to me right now. Not a space I want to be in, especially while acclimatising to the medication.

Thanks all, I won't derail this thread by making it about me , I just hope my insights to my situation now DD is nearing 18 and my plan to return to the UK and how this pans out can help Witches.

I'd always expected DD to want to return to the UK for uni too. She's explained to me though that when I go back to the UK I assimilate very quickly, I grew up there and I know it well and make a contented beeline to M&S on arrival. It's not like that for her, she grew up on the beaches of Sydney. She doesn't even like roast dinners and mainly eats Asian food and drinks bubble tea 24x7.

Derail away.
We can change the thread to 'Antipodean Arseholes'

But it is helpful and a massive watch out. I am hoping that Auckland has less of a pull for young adults than Sydney.

And the 3 year tax/uni thing - I remember reading about it on a thread on the British Expats forum but had forgotten about it. It's annoying because even though we pay income tax on our property there, I don't think it counts for education, it certainly doesn't for health care.

Witches, thanks. I'm in an emotionally abusive relationship. He thinks I'm 'lucky' because it's not physical, but he's often shoved me around and threatened me with violence. I am planning on getting away from him within the next few months, but the years of abuse have taken a heavy toll on my health (physical as well as mental). It's a very complicated situation in which I will still have a certain degree of problems even without him. Financial and accommodation issues are mainly what has kept me with him. Being on Mumsnet has taught me alot, much more so than f&f. I learned about FOG - fear, obligation and guilt, it sums it all up. The fear because of his menacing presence. Even a slight disagreement he becomes threatening. He is a very needy person, that's where the obligation comes in. The guilt applies to how I would have felt if he self harmed which for years he's threatened to do, after rows (which he invariably causes). All these things are virtually daily occurance. Yes, I will get away from him, but as hard as I have tried I cannot see myself finding happiness or with anyone, else which upsets me somewhat. I feel too damaged and have become an introvert. Being in my sixties is the only consolation in one way, because if I was much younger and felt I couldn't have a relationship it would be much worse. It might seem like I am basing my happiness on a man, but I'm not. It would just have been nice to have experienced it. Also, practically my accommodation issue is a worry. So, as you described in your OP how your problems made you feel, that how I have felt for years. Also, children in the mix bring complications, which in my situation has caused alot of added heartache. I am sure you will find a solution, and Pinot and anyone else in these complex situations. Stick in there, it won't be easy, but when you come through it you will feel like a huge weight has been lifted. Good luck to you all.

@Engagedagain
Oh my, you deserve so much better than the life you describe, and it’s heartbreaking that he has done lasting damage. But you must leave him and hopefully gain strength and confidence in doing so. Why do people do this to person they are supposed to love?
I feel I’ve had it lucky, we were generally fine and arguments were only a few days a month and I know I wasn’t perfect and contributed to the situation.
Even if you don’t find anyone else (and please don’t write that off) you will be happier on your own than in your current situation. Being here alone, I have thought a lot about loneliness if we break up and I don’t meet someone (god knows it will be hard if I have to stay here because no one bloody socialises and I’m not going near another kiwi!!!) and it’s does scare the life out of me, but so does being in isolation with someone who scares me.
X

pinotgrigio tell your dd we do have Asian food and bubble tea here

Dd hates bubble tea but all her friends love it.

Oh so sad, another one engagedagain - it's heartbreaking, isn't it. :(

I'm luckier in that my DH isn't abusive, but I'm still not as happy here as I hoped I would be. I hate the heat, we don't have an "outdoor lifestyle" here because of the heat, the mozzies, the hilly town in which we live and we're not that close to a beach. There are of course positives - but I still infinitely prefer the UK.

What a mess it all is!

I did say to DH when we came over here that I would give it a good go but if I hated it so much, we had to go back - and I didn't hate it enough to try and break him away from his mother. Plus his mother was more use than any of my family so I got on with it.

Here the "habitual residence" is in general more than 12 months and they have to be settled. Older children's views can be taken into account - and if they're school age they may "settle" quicker. It's certainly not from footfall in the country, not as far as I'm aware anyway!

I have a friend here - interesting case - she married an Aussie, they were in England for a while then came over here. Not long after, they split. She met and married another Aussie who turned out to be an abusive wanker (different story) but in the meantime, her Aussie ex has decided he prefers the UK and gone back there. However, their 2 children are settled here, and have grandparents etc. here - so they're torn between wanting to stay and wanting to go back. She herself is not unhappy here as she has a good job, has left the abusive wanker etc. - but she's also torn because one child (older) wants to stay here and the other one wants to go back. She can't leave under those circs, especially now their Dad is back in the UK!

Thumb and witches, thank you. Witches - I cannot offer any advise on the legalities of your situation, as I know nothing about such things. I have read most of the thread, and will come back later. I started a post but it was getting too long and complicated! I think that's partly because your situation seems quite complex. I think basically you've got to take some time to unravel things. Don't make any hasty decisions. Instead of feeling trapped use this time to do that. Go with it and you won't feel so trapped or panicky. I don't think the situation will resolve itself overnight, but keep a sense of positivity. Unless there's a legal time scale to aim for, don't put yourself under time pressure. I found my 40's were a time for alot of reflection. I had lost my parents long before, but I had always had a sense of responsibility towards them, so I can understand how difficult it is for you, with them back in the UK.

• advice!

I wonder what would have happened if you had said you weren't going with him? Would he have gone without the children? If not, then how do think he would have reacted? Would he have accepted it gracefully or started to make life miserable for you? I suppose from his point of view it depends how strong that pull was. I presume his parents aren't as old and frail as yours?

Once you had children it was inevitably going to lead to a push, pull situation. At the moment corona virus hasn't helped, and you've got to take into account how much difference it has made. If it hadn't have happened, how much happier would you have been being able to visit your parents more. Is there any chance when this has settled down they could go to NZ, and would it make a marked difference to you?

You are feeling angry and resentful because he gets to be with his parents. He probably sees it that he's given x amount of years in the UK, and it's his turn now.

The feeling trapped bit is because you don't think there's a solution, but there is, it's just that you can't see it at the moment, and it's going to mean someone making a sacrifice or it's going to take time. Would he be prepared to go back to the UK in a few years?

All this has obviously hit you like a ton of bricks.

Sorry while doing post I couldn't remember if he's got parents there, or is it just a brother, and any other family?

Hello, I haven't read the whole thread, just the first few pages but I have already seen some really terrible advice about habitual residence and leaving the jurisdiction.

Habitual residence is a question of fact. It can be gained and lost in a day. If you moved to NZ with the intention of settling there, the children are in schools etc, then NZ is most likely to be the country of their habitual residence. Taking them out of the country without the permission of the other parent would be a criminal offence in the UK and I assume similar laws apply in NZ.

NZ is a Hague Convention country so when the children are unlawfully removed, the English court would order their immediate return without further investigation unless you could prove a really serious risk of harm - this is a high hurdle to cross.

Apologies if someone has already pointed this out - I did see some more sensible references to habitual residence. But there is no such thing as a '12 month test'. It depends on the degree of integration and the motivation for moving.

Please, please do get legal advice if you end up deciding you want to leave NZ.

The op has had legal advice and can't remove the DC without his permission. He has also said he wants a divorce...

I am really glad she has had legal advice. Some of the 'advice' I see in situations like this is not just wrong, its bad, dangerous and harmful.

It's a really tough situation. I agree that anyone thinking of marrying and having children with someone who has strong ties to another country, needs to think it through very carefully and make sure they know what the legal position is. I appreciate its too late for that now. Just hope the op has some good emotional and practical support in real life.

I think it is very difficult to imagine how deeply ingrained alcohol and the almost competitive drinking to get ugly drunk is in Australia and New Zealand. I didn’t until I moved to Europe, and now that I am back in Australia, it makes me very uncomfortable. The domestic violence (and death rates from DV) and shameful here. Also, neither country recognizes coercive control as a form of domestic abuse, unfortunately.

@EngagedAgain
Thanks for responding.

I found some texts from back in June, before we sold the house/resigned, where I tell him I can't go, that I have everything to lose and nothing to gain. He basically said that we had a deal (BTW, this 'deal' was on our third date) and that he is going. But I don't think he would have gone and yes, there would have been pressure, maybe even a break up there.

His mum is younger and much fitter than my parents, but his dad has severe dementia. I don't think my resentment is that he gets to see them - I knew that before I left, it's how he pretty much idolises them at my expense, and because his mum was so involved in the pressure for us to move and the deceit around the business situation. The fact she disagrees with EVERYTHING I say doesn't help how I feel about her. My parents can't travel, well dad can't, and there is no way they would get a visa to stay and while it would ease my guilt, the problems would still remain.

DH lived in London for 7 years before we met and was actually married to another English girl before me, so it wasn't like I made him go there. In fact, a year after we met he got the job he was in for the next 11 years and that kept him there as he was doing so well - while it was obviously in my favour, we also stayed for him. He's said he will never move back, he came here for good.

To be honest, I don't think Corona has made much of a difference - when I started this thread, I still thought that July, worst case October, would be ok. It might be the straw that breaks the camel's back but really not central to my problem. What has really got to me is how much I dislike NZ and the toll on my mental health. I obviously knew I would miss home, but hadn't expected to hate it here. But I do. So then you add unexpected money and job problems, a bloody global pandemic, discovering I've have been lied to about the very reason we moved, family problems at home and I've ended up in this perfect storm of misery.

Sorry, a bit jumbled. Head slightly mashed today. x

@ThumbWitchesAbroad My friend's dad is supposed to visis NZ from the UK in October, and Qatar cancelled his flight yesterday.
It's going to be a long time before we can travel.
Totally gutted. x

@justilou1 That's what I mean when I say that the IL's life revolves round alcohol.
BIL (the one with the alcoholic wife) had 8 bottles of $100 gin delivered the day before lockdown. His mum is constantly trying to make supermarkets sell her more prosecco than you are allowed under lockdown rations etc. They talk about it all the time.

I'm pretty sure they are unusual even over here though.

I really wouldn't want my DC growing up around that alcohol attitude it's really grim.