Just need to share - no solution

[Witchesandwizards]

I met my kiwi husband 13 years ago in London, I am 48, he is 42 and we have two children, 10 and 7. We moved to NZ October 2019 against my wishes, but my husband always wanted to come back.

It was always an understanding that at some point we would move to NZ but this was decided before children, before my parents became frail and it kept getting put off as we built a successful and comfortable life in London with a close network of friends. I hoped that this would mean we didn’t have to move. By the time he decided we should move, I didn’t want to, but my husband held me to a ‘promise’ I had made 12 years earlier, and despite a lot of arguments, we set the wheels in motion and moved 6 months ago.

Immediately I felt homesick and suddenly realised that I had taken my life for granted, but emotionally I still felt in control and we threw ourselves into finding a house. And when we moved into that house, I looked forward to our container arriving and then it was Christmas. I spent 4 months either expecting things to improve or busy with the holidays. I still cried, we still had arguments, but nothing could prepare me for how I felt when the kids went back to school.

At the start of February it hit me like a ton of bricks that I have left most of my family and all my friends, my career, the home we renovated together, the city I love and my country of birth. It dawned that the rest of my life could be unhappy, living in a place I hate and don’t belong. At almost 50, I don’t really have much chance of building a life that is as fulfilling as my old one - I feel bereft and trapped. The best way I can describe it is that it feels like I’m in a coma and someone is trying to turn off my life support and however hard I try to yell, I can’t make them understand that I’m alive. I feel trapped in a nightmare - I have lost all control over my life. It’s a horror movie. I can’t even look back at last year and all the planning and believe I actually came. It’s a blur. I don’t know how I got on the plane.
Everything I do reminds me of an occasion, place or person from home. Hundreds of times a day. Music makes me sad, photos make me sad, social media makes me sad. I’ve always been the sort of person who can compartmentalise my problems, and still get up every day and find something to enjoy, putting a face on through hard times and still functioning well at work and socially. But now I only function for the children and nothing brings me joy. I have deserted my parents when they need me most, I argue and fight with my husband in front of the children, I don’t earn a living and I am horrible to live with.

Consequently, we are having terrible marriage problems - I’m not playing ball and embracing life as he wants me to, and he says I am negative. He is the classic extrovert and I am a natural introvert but with extrovert ‘cover’ when needed - he thinks I should socialise more to get out of my rut, find a job (after a 24 year career in advertising, I can’t get work for logistical/childcare reasons, age and now probably recession), and is pissed off that I don’t want to hang out with his family all the time (I don’t particularly get on with them). In return I have been absolutely vile to live with, lashing out (not physically) because I blame and resent him for my situation. He is now talking about separation but has said I can’t take the children home so I would have to stay here with 50% access, spending half my time alone in a country I never wanted to live in. I don’t know if I love him, I can’t see the wood for the trees.
I know I am depressed, but what good are anti-depressants, I need a time machine.

If you got this far thank you! There is nothing anyone can do to help but writing it down maybe helped. Or maybe not. 3.30am and I'm done x

This is really shocking. I think you can conclude that this contempt has been festering for sometime, well before you set off for NZ. I sense that you were manipulated and deceived to go which has left you trapped - all of the benefits of the move favour him for the very long term and it seems you have lost and awful lot.

What are you reading into the “children’s house” comment.

It is early days and I wonder if he would agree with you returning to the UK with the DCs - whereby they can travel to visit him twice a year for long holidays and he comes to visit them twice a year - which means that they see each other each quarter for an extended period. Then there is daily FT etc. Many people live like this who work abroad or are in the forces.

I just wonder if the above situation - with a happy Mum, back in their London routine and old friends etc is better than staying in NZ with an alcoholic father and extended family (who will embark on parental alienation) and a depressed DM who is trapped indefinitely without work, finances and support networks - for the DCs. Only you and your DCs can make this decision. I think earlier in the thread you said he indicated you could go back to the UK with your DCs? Or did I misunderstand that? That might be worth working on?

Could you ask him for a one year separation on compassionate grounds where you return to the UK with your DCs to care for your failing parents?

Also is there anything worth looking at from a UK legal position wrt coercive control as you were in the country when it happened maybe - and you are still a British citizen.

I also worry about the “doing your time” approach as once your DCs come of age and you are “free” to return by then your DCs are embedded in relationships etc and will choose to stay in NZ indefinitely - and you will be faced with another dreadful choice which is just to leave them behind as young adults.

It doesn’t surprise me. As per my early post on your thread, it sounds like he manipulated you and bullied you in moving just so the children over there knowing you would them be stuck. Please get in touch with a lawyer in the UK who has experience with custody and international matters Before you talk to him or do anything and place your recordings in a safe place (ideally email them to a trusted friend in the UK).

Email your recordings to someone you trust so he cannot delete them from your phone or your own email. Wishing you the best for getting back to the UK!

He indicated before that he may let you move back? Can you just ask him? Be super reasonable, twice a year visits, one in England, on in nz. Too good to be true? He may just agree to it, sounds like he’ll be a lot happier living his new life without you.

Sorry, meant to say...

Wanker

He is a cruel and selfish man. Know that by next birthday you will no longer be living with him and will not be dealing with this on a daily basis.

Maybe offering no child support might sweeten the pot. I don't know if there is a Reciprocal agreement for this between UK and NZ so you might be not be giving up your rights and if you are you should just claim in the UK anyway.

Top line advice is that I can’t take them home without permission, but with fabulous Mumsnet help, I have found a local family lawyer who has empathy for my situation. is English and gets the ‘kiwi’ male thing, and is going to look at every legal avenue (and both our dads served in the RAF).

Listening to the recordings today has made me realise something important about our relationship. Our flashpoint for arguments was always his drinking - either on the night or the morning after. Occasionally I would be a bit drunk, more often not.
I have a temper - I shout and scream and name call - while he is more subtle and cruel. As the one who called my husband a c*nt in a fight, I became the ‘baddie’ because it is tangible, compared to him who is nasty and goading without the name calling.
But what hurts more? Generic name calling or a personal slur and gaslighting, targeted to really hurt? He just had this way of winding me up to distraction.

Listening to the recordings I can hear him doing it. Why else tell me the same thing 20 times? And his voice, sickly sweet, patronising, smirking, fake sympathetic like he’s doing me a favour telling me why he no longer loves me. He just kept coming back.
Unlike previous arguments I didn’t bite or fight back - all I do for the entire hour of recording is ask him what has changed or why didn’t he tell me 6 months ago and sob uncontrollably. And tell him to go away, leave me alone. At one point he says ‘....and, because of that, I’m off, I’m out, ciao, ciao’ and I remembered this is when he stuck his two middle fingers up at me.
Who wouldn’t bite, call him a c*nt in this situation?
It’s evidence of what I knew he was doing but was very hard to articulate or prove. But when I don’t fight back he comes off very badly.

www.confusiontoclaritynow.com/blog/why-youre-so-confused-by-covert-abuse

Someone posted the link above on another thread today - you might find it useful - even down to the facial expressions.

When someone is passive aggressively treating you with masked contempt it leaves you with serious doubts and confusion. They obfuscate, prod and poke under the radar leaving you frustrated and angry.

You will see that they systematically wind you up and provoke you into a rage - so that you then express the anger that they are repressing - so that you then take the blame because you lost emotional
control with an outburst even through they have been setting trip wires and goading for days.

If this 'taking care of me' bullshit just raised its ugly head, it sounds to me as if he's been 'listening to someone' who is filling his head full of shit. Perhaps a family member or a friend?

I hope things can go your way as far as going back to the UK. BUT, if it can't happen, remember that you can and will still be happier on your own in NZ. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I'd start planning a new life on my own in parallel with seeking legal advice.

As far as him being a 'great dad', a wise person once said that "the best thing a father can do for his children is to respect and love their mother. He's not treating you with respect and it certainly doesn't sound as if he loves you. He is NOT a 'great dad'.

Oh, as far as his drinking.....I'm sure they have Al Anon in NZ. If I were you I'd seek it out.

Oh my god OP, I hope you are still reading! I have only read your OP but this was exactly me two and a half years ago at age 45! Exactly as you said - I didn't want to go - except my DH used extreme emotional coercion and manipulation to get me to go. But that sense of the utter horror of what I had done and how my whole life had been left behind.
MY DH showed never said thanks for what I had done or showed any appreciation - just criticised and hated me for 'not being happy enough' and 'not trying hard enough'. I felt exactly as you described. It was unimagineably awful - the sense of being trapped, of having nothing, of being dependent on someone I hated. I remember lifting slightly when I realised this wouldn't go on forever as one day I would die and it would be over. I could not leave and go back due to the children, as you say. Looking back, i think i had a bit of a mental breakdown. The sense of horror, of horror, of horror, was just awful.

But it has got better - I know have a job - I learn less than half what I did but I love it. I have got new hobbies - I chose to do things I never did in my old life, to mark the start of something new. Starting to make friends, no deep friends yet but people I am friendly with. I have started to have sex/ relationships with other men. I live with H but separately from him in the same house. I don't like him, I have no respect for him, but we can get along superficially. It's not exactly living the dream, but I am often happy. I have learnt about myself too, reflecting on why I agreed to go, what that said about me and what I need to learn from it.

Massive hugs op. I feel sick reading this. What is this horrible man doing to you. It sounds like he wants to drive you to the edge. what a cruel person to do this to someone knowing they are all alone in a foreign place. I hope legally you find a solution.
Please send the recording to someone who will keep it safe. Thinking of you. X

Thank you *@namefornowish@ , it always makes me emotional when someone else understands - relief it's not just me, but sad for them. And great news you've managed to work out a life that works. Can I ask how your kids have been throughout your experience? I'm petrified of hurting them. I know what you mean about dying. I have no doubt that if it were not for my parents I would consider this. Even my kids. I've actually looked in to the impact of a parent suicide vs messy break up and depressed mother. I won't do it though. But it was a very real thought.

Listening to the recording is a lightbulb moment and thanks @Gutterton for that article. So interesting that it talks about how charming these people are to friends - he's literally the life and soul, the man who will cry with them if they are down, dance the night away in good times. I would always try and explain it to them like this:
DH will say a black table is white, and me, sober, will insist no, the table is black. And a huge argument would ensue with him goading and smirking, and ending in me saying I hate him etc, sometimes even throwing and breaking things out of sheer frustration. The following day, all he will remember is 'I hate you' and the temper. Not how he wound me up to distraction. Or even the original table conversation. His take out, and eventually mine, is that I'm a nasty, screaming banshee. We ended up just getting up the next day and not mentioning it, just getting on with our day. I could never get him to understand what he did so gave up. I did try previously to record him - just to show him what he's like, bit he used that against me too. Saying I was trapping him because I knew I was recording so it wasn't realistic or fair.

I sent one of my best friends the mildest recording and this is her verdict:

"I've thought (DH) was a big kid but I honestly don't think he is malicious, and I think you are right that it comes from his mother and spoilt baby of a brother who has been allowed to live the life of Riley and only comes home when it's a better prospect than what he ran away to.
I also think he is probably feeling...

1. That he has let everyone down and is now going to bluster through it, bolstered by his family
2. That is doesn't know how to reach you when you don't have all your props that make you happy and he has realised that he isn't one of them
3. Like a bit of a dick so he is drinking like a student to forget about it.

I'd also like to think he is a bit sorry that he has done all this without making sure it was right and proper and fair. He MUST know. He isn't stupid."

I think a lot of this makes sense but that she's being too generous, and she didn't hear the worst of it.

I'm not sure he is an alcoholic.
He can definitely not drink for days. In London on normal weeks he might have one or two beers, two nights a week then his Friday bender. His problem with alcohol is that once he has decided it's a drinking night he cannot stop until he's incoherent and incapable of knowing who or where he is. If he doesn't go out on a Friday night (and surprise, surprise, he started to run out of friends to do this with in London now we are all 40 somethings with families) he will do this at home. Drink from 6pm until 3 or 4 am on his own.

@AcrossthePond55 He spent those two weeks in lockdown with his mother who will have cooked him bacon and eggs every day and started making him cocktails at 4pm. And with the twin brother he hasn't seen for 4 years as he has lived in LA as a wannabe actor for 10 years, couch surfing and living off mummy's credit card (at the age of 42 he has not had a proper job since his 20s) He's a hippy conspiracist who doesn't believe in money. Easy when you're living off mummy and daddy and particularly tragic when your mum is in her late 60s and still working. His dad is the nicest member of the family, kind and gentle, but now his dementia is so bad he can't communicate

The lawyer I am speaking to also mentioned that the borders are unlikely to open properly (without 2 weeks isolation either side for example) for 18 months. My dad is unlikely to last that long and his voice is now so bad I can't have a conversation with him. This alone would be enough to push me over the edge, but I have everything else as well.

The recordings are safe x

I'm so so sorry about your dad's prognosis. This is just a horrible situation for you.

He sees his brother being babied by their mother and getting to live the life of Riley. He wants the same and wants YOU to provide it (other than finances, at least he's working). Sounds to me as if he wants to be 'cared for' like a child but get the respect due an adult. That doesn't work, does it? At least it wouldn't work for me and sounds as if it wouldn't work for you, either.

I'd feel sorry for their mum, but it sounds as if she's made a rod for her own back. Too bad she isn't stopping to think about what 'actor' son will do when she's no longer able to work and provide. If she's planning on him 'paying her back' by being her carer I'm afraid she's probably got another think coming.

Just make YOURSELF your main priority. Do what works for YOU. The rest of them can just go whistle!

Oh don’t worry about mum - she is hard as nails. She pretty much has what she wants, all her boys living within 20 minutes of her, two employed in her business and one at home living off her.

They have money - business, 2 commercial properties, their own house and a beach house so suspect ‘actor’ is just waiting for his inheritance.

Unfortunately, us relocating because DH parents are ‘giving’ him their business, the lawyer has just confirmed that it’s all in a trust and therefore untouchable. I was 100% bought here on a lie.

Wow. It gets worse.

Their family dynamic is mucked up.

I’m not sure I would be so quick to think your DH isn’t an alcoholic. The fact that he would drink to excess like that in London on his own every Friday is quite telling. Just because he doesn’t drink every day doesn’t mean he doesn’t have huge issues with alcohol.

I wonder if the fact you were lied to about the business and brought to NZ under false pretences would have any bearing on whether you can leave with the DC. It must do surely?

I am so sorry about your dad.

I think I’ve just about got the measure of your DH. He’s a ‘ kiwi bloke’, a macho, heavy drinker who thinks a ‘good woman’ is one who takes care of him and supports him even when he is wrong. While you were in the UK and he didn’t have the support of his dysfunctional family and society to think and act in this way your relationship worked. Now he is back in New Zealand where this is the norm, his behaviour has become more extreme and you are unhappy and less able to facilitate his life which winds him up because you’re not falling into place. You have lost a lot of power in the move and he knows it. His attitude to you was apparent even in the UK when he wasn’t upfront about the family business.
I am glad that you are seeing a solicitor. Is she also able to advise on the possible split of assets should you remain in NZ? I imagine the overseas property makes things more complicated. Wherever you live I think it would be wise to consider the relationship over and make plans for the future.

Yes, I'm going to agree with Peridot here - there are different types of alcoholic, they don't have to drink every day or be drunk every day - but their inability to stop when they should is the indicator.

I had a lodger once who only drank at weekends but would drink to oblivion when he did. He was diagnosed as an alcoholic.

The man clearly has a problem with his alcohol intake - but that's not the worst of him and your friend is being FAR too generous towards him, probably because she remembers him being the life and soul etc. - he's a liar and a ,manipulator.

I'm a bit horrified about the idea of the borders not being opened for another 18m though - that sucks! (For you, but also for me as my Dad is nearly 87 and we had to miss our annual trip this year :( )

I'm so sorry - just appalling for you, the whole thing. :(

Oh OP the assets in a family trust has fucked over many a woman here at the end of a relationship, I am so sorry. Trusts can be busted and the courts are increasingly willing to do it but your lawyer will be able to advise whether or not it is possible in your case. Outrageous if it was sold to you as a personal stake in the business for your family. What a shitter.

Now that you can see how the dynamic plays out between you, try grey rocking it. Just try not to react to his goading, stay calm and ignore. Easier said than done, but let go of trying to please him or make him love you.

At least I know that between my parents and his, the kids will be taken care of so I don’t have to worry about their larger requirements - college and house deposits.
Yes honsandrebels - a shitter indeed. We have a friend here who works in finance, and in our first week here, warned us both about having a lackadaisical approach towards formalising any agreement. He has experienced too many family business fallings out.

Hopefulhen - I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. He is literally a different person. Friends at home wouldn’t recognise him but that’s the trait of a good salesman - to woo his audience. Chameleon like.

Do you know what makes me sad? My dad adores him and DH’s relationship with the kids (fun uncle) makes him feel guilty about his very normal ‘70s working dad’ relationship with us. I need to tell my dad how good a dad he is and acknowledge the sacrifices that he made to keep us safe and future proofed.

At home he recognised his alcohol problem which he saw as speed of drinking and managed it by drinking shitty weak beer like Fosters, but here he’s drinking anything he can get his hands on. The two bottles of wine he downed in a couple of hours the other night, was wine we bought on a holiday the year we married and exported from the UK. Gone.
But how do I prove this if it would help custody?
I just hate my kids seeing massive alcohol consumption so normalised.

Yes he is an alcoholic. People are allergic to that word though and close down - so use “problem drinker” if it opens up dialogue.

AA define alcoholism as any negative impact the drinking has on the relationships around them - not by what, when, how often and how much was drunk. It’s about emotionally unavailability - alcoholics exist in 3 phases - drunk, hungover and craving/preoccupied/compulsive - when they cannot be “present” for their loved ones.

Other clues are drinking v fast to get pissed (as opposed to getting chilled), being unable to stop once started - AA phrase “one drink is too many, one thousand is never enough” - and also having to constantly and consciously adapt behaviour around alcohol because they can’t stop (in your DH case, the weak beers, only drinking Friday nights).

Mine refused the “alcoholic” label (his DF was an extreme alcoholic) but called himself a “binge drinker” - he drunk heavily on Fri and Sat nights - because he couldn’t cope with extreme hangovers at work - this meant that me and my children only experienced him totally drunk and shockingly hungover at weekends. He wasn’t nasty just 100% emotionally unavailable - he also was “fun uncle” which is just tearing around a park, over scheduling sports and activities, v materialistically indulgent — doing his duty - but not intimately engaged in the DCs feelings. And they know this - actually they feel this emotional distance / neglect / vacuum / void - but don’t know what it is - it leaves them v confused and emotionally distressed even if they don’t show it in the early days.

Also the whole dynamic around the toxic RS with the drinker I recognise and is v familiar to partners of alcoholics. The rows, chaos, disappoint, chaos - escalating frustration so that you become the woman/mother/wife you never wanted to be the screaming banshee. That’s the time to move on. Either by dropping the rope in that futile game where you always come off last and your DCs see you as the aggressor - by emotionally detaching, never raising your voice and refusing to have confrontation or conflict around alcohol - or as is the final game leaving. Alcoholics are always in denial and it is like talking to a brick wall. Get support from Al Anon to help you repair the damage to you and your DCs as well as learning to cope with his alcoholism long term because that is what you are all facing even if you divorce.