Keeping some mystery in relationships

[ArtemisOfOrtygia]

It seems to me like the waters (amongst women) are very divided when it comes to "keeping some mystery" in relationships. Some women feel self-conscious about doing certain things in front of their partner, while other women think everything that's natural and normal shouldn't be hidden. I'm talking about things like farting and burping, going to the toilet, etc. in front of one's partner. I guess I'm just curious about both types of women...

To those that belong to the latter mentioned group:

• How have your partners (throughout life, not just current one) reacted to you doing these things in front of them?

• How do you find the confidence to do such intimate and, potentially, off-putting things in front of a partner?

To the women that belong to the first-mentioned group:

• What do you do when you have to stay in a hotel room with your partner, and you have to share an ensuite bathroom...and that's neither sound-proof, nor have any windows? Surely, it's not very romantic feeling to know your partner can hear you in the bathroom?

I'm asking because I always grew up learning that it's vulgar and unladylike to do certain things in front of people, and in front of men, particularly. I'm just unsure of how I'm supposed to cope with things (I deem to be) embarrassing in front of their partners. My fiancé wants us to live together, but I have told him I'd prefer it if we continue to live separately. When we go on holidays, I usually book an AirBnB that's big enough for the both of us to have some private space, or I book two separate rooms. But he finds it weird and unnecessary...

A baby does not instinctively hold back any bodily function based on their sex. It is not innate for females to hold in farts.

Don’t think there have been any other posters not choosing to live with their DP due to concerns about privacy with respect to bodily functions. That’s extreme.

Feminists will not support misogyny
Trouble is, feminists see everyone with a different opinion as a misogynist. Feminism is a very exclusive club that only those with the same mindset and views can be part of. But it doesn't mean the rest of us hate women.

You can have a opinion but we can't? Numerous people have pointed out the flaws in your opinions but you're unwilling to back them up*
When have I said you can't have an opinion? All I have said is that I disagree. Is disagreement not allowed? Me disagreeing with you does not mean I forbid you from having and expressing an opinion. By all means, do.

What things?
I'm afraid to say in case people will just have even more to say, haha.

Well, what would you like to do, OP? How would you like to be? Would you prefer, for instance, to feel able to live with your fiancé, if it is your worry about demonstrating you have the same bodily functions as he does that is really preventing you?

I was brought up with a deeply unhelpful set of beliefs about my body, about gender, social class, education, religion etc, but really, as an adult, you're responsible for how you deal with how you were raised, and changing it when you recognise its limitations.

Doesn't the breadth of different responses from women to being open about bodily functions on this thread alone suggest to you that there is no 'naturally lady-like' way to be about them?

Trouble is, feminists see everyone with a different opinion as a misogynist.

No we don't. We just really, really hate misogynists and you are harbouring a shit load of internal misogyny.

Your OP and updates suggest that you are anxious about not seeming “ladylike” to your fiancé if he overhears or sees or smells any bodily functions, to the extent that you have chosen not to live with him. Posters with varied approaches in their own relationships have suggested that this is unusual and unlikely to be a good thing for you.

Also misogyny isn’t just about openly hating women. It’s about lots of things - assumptions, perceptions, stereotyping... even misogynists can be pleasant people during interactions with women. Misogynists can BE women!

How convenient
It's not about convenience, it's about understanding the world from where you, yourself, stand. My life is based on the things I see and experience, not the things you see and experience, or somebody else. Social sciences are mostly based on observations, anyway.

I do base mine on actual research which is why I understand that gender and sex appropriate bevhaviour is a social construct. It's not even something that is controversial in academia. even in my own research with adults you can see how we are socailised into behaving in a certain way.
That's great. But I don't believe this topic isn't debatable in academia. Everything can be questioned. And should be questioned.

A Library
According to English lexica, a library is a physical building that stores data materials. As I mentioned, I'm not a native English speaker or from any English speaking country. Where I live, there is a clear difference between a 'bibliotheque' and database. We'd never use the word biblioteque to describe an online data system.

I don't understand why it's so common on this site to advise people to see a counsellor for the most banal and insignificant things, or to suggest that relationships are problematic, abusive, etc. for the slightest, non-problematic and non-abusive things. A person doesn't need to run to a counsellor for every single little problem they have. Seems very overredundant and unnecessary to seek professional help for being embarrassed about going to the bathroom in front of one's partner / other people (which seems to be a very common embarrassment to have). I also don't see how being embarrassment about something is a sign of problems in a relationship, if I'm honest

@ArtemisOfOrtygia I am a counsellor, and to be honest there is nothing wrong with going to speak to someone even about the most "banal" things. We need to treat mental and emotional health like physical health. If you have a physical problem it is advisable to speak to a medical professional.

slightest, non-problematic and non-abusive things This, again, seems to be your opinion, as you have mentioned many times in posts above. I am wondering if part of your non feminist views are to see women as not equal to men and as such should fall into a more traditional role. This is entirely your own choice and if you choose to be a more traditional "wife/partner" then nobody has a right to question that but if someone is in a situation where they feel IN ANY WAY less than because of something their partner has said or done then it is, in fact, abuse, be it emotional, psychological, physical or verbal.

Your attitude to moving in with your partner is indeed something that I would discuss with a client as it seems to be more than a privacy issue. I'm wondering if you think that your partner would see you as less desirable or less of a woman if he is aware that you have human bodily functions? I am not suggesting that you need to do any of the behaviours you do not wish to so (again privacy is a personal matter) but there is a difference between intimacy and privacy.

It is interesting that you haven't mentioned sex itself (or maybe I missed that) Would you find the sights/sounds/smells of sexual intercourse to be acceptable for example? I'm wondering if you are able to let yourself be yourself in that type of intimate scenario or if indeed that is also a difficult task for you privacy wise?

You also mentioned that you have seen boys be protective of little girls etc. This is all learned behaviour and is socially constructed. This type of behaviour is learned from the moment we are born. There are many factors which can affect this. There are many books and papers on early childhood development which show the types of social constructs we adapt due to our surroundings.

In conclusion, no I don't think people advise people to speak to a counsellor for banal reasons, I think it is a very helpful thing to do ( not only as a counsellor but also as someone who has had many years of counselling myself) Your comment was very defensive when counselling was suggested which makes one wonder why you feel it a counselling suggestion is a criticism?

For the record I don't use the toilet in front of my partner but I don't judge people who do, it's a personal choice.

No we don't. We just really, really hate misogynists and you are harbouring a shit load of internal misogyny
In what way? I genuinely don't understand what makes me a misogynist. I would appreciate if you could let me know.

Social sciences are mostly based on observations, anyway.

Sigh...... yes they are but your observation of your life would not be considered rigorous academic research by any stretch. And observations in research are far more nuanced and rigorous.

But I don't believe this topic isn't debatable in academia. Everything can be questioned. And should be questioned.

But academic debate has to be supported by actual evidence. You can't just say you disagree! Show me some evidence to support your statements!

According to English lexica, a library is a physical building that stores data materials. As I mentioned, I'm not a native English speaker or from any English speaking country. Where I live, there is a clear difference between a 'bibliotheque' and database. We'd never use the word biblioteque to describe an online data system.

We use the word library to refer to a physical space and online space. I have never told my students to look on the database. They get told to access the library and they know that means online too.

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-mysteries-love/201908/12-ways-spot-female-misogynist

This makes for interesting reading.

Also misogyny isn’t just about openly hating women. It’s about lots of things - assumptions, perceptions, stereotyping... even misogynists can be pleasant people during interactions with women. Misogynists can BE women!
Don't you think it's dangerous to label everything that makes people actually think for themselves as misogynistic traits? Are we all supposed to be robots? Making assumptions, having perceptions and stereotyping is a very human way of navigating this big planet, its inhabitants and societies. As long as we aren't fuelled by hatred, and are open to learn things that teach us to look at things differently, I don't see the problem. No one has the capacity to to be completely open-minded, completely free from judgement, and completely free from anything that's deemed negative. I mean, labelling me as a misogynist is an assumption, too.

I’m both types of lady. With me, it has totally depended on partner. Traditionally have been in the first camp, but with my DP our bond is so solid and intimate that those things don’t put me off him and vice versa. I mean, I still would avoid farting and shitting in front of him (!) but if the worse happened 😂 I would totally just laugh and not feel worried or embarrassed at all.

Labelling is precisely what this conversation started with.

You cannot label body functions and behaviours as "lady-like" unless it is something that only a woman can do.

I suspect this is a cultural difference though.

Sigh...... yes they are but your observation of your life would not be considered rigorous academic research by any stretch. And observations in research are far more nuanced and rigorous.
I have never said anything but my opinions are just that: Opinions. Am I not allowed to base my own life on my own experiences? I would never demand of you, or anybody else, to live your life by my views and opinions.

But academic debate has to be supported by actual evidence. You can't just say you disagree! Show me some evidence to support your statements!
I know that. You're the one that said this topic isn't debatable in academia, so I corrected you and said it is. Didn't realise I also had to specify the frames in which it can be debated. But yes, you're correct.

We use the word library to refer to a physical space and online space. I have never told my students to look on the database. They get told to access the library and they know that means online too.
Well, I learned something new then. Thank you.

I should add - and he takes the same approach.

I’m not horrendously repulsed by it or whatever but also don’t want to be a couple that just sits there farting and belching in front of each other.

Well, i don't know which camp I'm in!

Burping: yeah, that's ok

Farting: tend not to in front of my sexual partner if I can avoid it

Toilet: no, there's no need. Maybe a wee, if desperate for some reason

I gave birth in front of my kids' dads though.

I like a little "mystery" and have no desire to watch them take a dump.

*www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-mysteries-love/201908/12-ways-spot-female-misogynist

This makes for interesting reading.*
Thanks, but I don't see myself fitting in the points mentioned, so I still don't understand what makes me a misogynist?

Oh, I just read on... separate rooms on holiday etc... no no no. I don't care about sharing facilities etc, but no desire to be in the actual bathroom together whilst using the loo.

But you were making comparisons between your opinions and social science research.

Well, what would you like to do, OP? How would you like to be? Would you prefer, for instance, to feel able to live with your fiancé, if it is your worry about demonstrating you have the same bodily functions as he does that is really preventing you?
That's a good question. I don't want to be a person that goes to the bathroom in front of my fiancé, but, perhaps, I would want to be a bit more relaxed about him seeing me in conditions I don't necessarily want him to see me in. Something minor I can mention is my snoring, for instance. It's not particularly something I'm excited for him to experience, but it's also something I can't stop doing because my nose gets blocked easily, and I have to sleep in a certain way due to my neck problems. I'm a bit embarrassed about that, and also don't want him to have a bad night's sleep. I know I can't sleep when someone is snoring.

I was brought up with a deeply unhelpful set of beliefs about my body, about gender, social class, education, religion etc, but really, as an adult, you're responsible for how you deal with how you were raised, and changing it when you recognise its limitations.
I totally agree. That's why I started this thread, because I wanted to see if other people have been in my shoes, and how they got over some of their hang-ups.

Doesn't the breadth of different responses from women to being open about bodily functions on this thread alone suggest to you that there is no 'naturally lady-like' way to be about them?
Not really, no.

I always think it's weird how bodily functions are considered "unladylike". When you think about it, surely nature dictates that it's actually women who should be more open/less embarrassed by bodily functions. After all we have periods where we bleed uncontrollably, childbirth, the aftermath of birth which can include leaking urine, feces and trouble controlling wind as well as bleeding, sweating and so forth, we lactate which can cause milk to leak everywhere when we don't want it to....all in all I'd say it's much more the remit of women to talk about, joke and share these issues since we generally have a lot less control over our bodily functions than men. Instead, traditionally women have had to pretend none of these issues exist as they are distasteful to society. I would argue that the social constructs around femininity are very much opposed to the natural way of things, rather than led by them.

But you were making comparisons between your opinions and social science research.
I really wasn't. I mentioned that I base my world views on the things I personally see and experience. And then added, in the end, that social sciences are based on observations as well, not exact and precise mathematics. I wasn't drawing any comparisons, I was just highlighting that social sciences isn't the most exact and measurable branch of science. There is room for different conclusions, unlike in most natural sciences.