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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

DP's marriage ended because he had an affair.

149 replies

YourLittleVeniceBitch · 16/09/2019 18:02

We have spoken about it at great length. He has never minimised or made excuses for it. I know how much he regrets his actions and wishes he could go back and do things differently. The relationship wasn't a happy one and he took the cowards exit door. The knock on effect this has had on his relationship with his DC/the time he now has with them breaks his heart and he goes over and above to see them as much as he possibly can. He had extensive counselling to try and gain insight and make whatever changes he felt needed to be made.

In the 1.5 years we have been together he has never caused me so much as a single moment of worry or doubt. He is totally open and transparent. I trust him.

Am I a fool? I truly don't believe that life is as black and white as the MN mantra of "Once a cheat always a cheat" and I know from my own previous long term relationship that monogamy/fidelity can be a tricky path to navigate. I have done things in the past that I now bitterly regret and know I would never do again. Is it not possible that he has also matured and learned from his past as I have? Or is someone automatically a write off as a human being as soon as they have an affair? (I'm not defending affairs at all btw, just genuinely struggling to get my own thoughts/feelings on the subject figured out).

AIBU to believe that someone can fuck up in such a monumental way and learn from the experience and not inevitably do the same thing again?

This is all a bit jumbled, sorry. We're talking about moving in/marriage and I guess there is a tiny voice in the back of my head that says "He did it to his ex he might do it to you". But then again, someone who has never cheated before could also do it to me. You can never ever know what someone is going to do.

Any advice would be very welcome.

OP posts:
ScreamingLadySutch · 17/09/2019 14:33

Here is a really good article that addresses the question @YourLittleVeniceBitch is asking. I think her points are really valid.

ScreamingLadySutch · 17/09/2019 14:36

Reconciliation and Entitlement
July 19, 2013 by Chump Lady

The Unicorn of Reconciliation As anyone who reads here knows, I’m not hopeful about reconciliation after infidelity. It’s not that I don’t believe successful reconciliations are possible — it’s just that I’ve seen scant evidence of them. (I liken this to a unicorn, mythical creatures, rarely sighted, that I want to believe in.)

The biggest reason I am skeptical about reconciliation is entitlement.

It’s my entire premise of this blog.

People cheat because they feel entitled to cheat. That’s it. That’s my simple answer to the painful question of WHY? I don’t believe people cheat because they’re broken, or their FOO issues, or because of the staggering powers of Facebook crushes. I don’t believe people cheat because of mid-life crises, which descend on former church deacons like a toxic cloud of musk cologne. I don’t believe people cheat because of peri-menopause. I don’t believe people cheat because that hussy flung herself at him and wore down his defenses after his mother died. I don’t believe people cheat because monogamy is not an evolutionary imperative. I believe people cheat because they give themselves permission to cheat — and that’s a matter of character.

So when D-Day hits, it does rather beggar belief that this person is going to lead with humility. To do that, they’d have to call into question their entitlement. And let’s face it, entitlement feels awesome. Humility, not so much.

Entitlement, of course, only feels awesome if you can suppress empathy. (Truly disordered people cannot do empathy.) ...

When people are caught cheating they do a lot of things to keep entitlement alive. They gaslight. Cookies? I don’t have cookies. They blame shift. It is Right and Proper that I have all the cookies, because you don’t know how to appreciate cookies. They mind fuck. I would give you a cookie, but I’m was thinking of your health. You can’t handle sugar. They obfuscate. Cookie? Define cookie.

As long as there is entitlement, there is no hope at reconciliation.

Once you realize that, everything else falls into place. Chumps tie themselves in knots on the transparency issue. She didn’t give me her passwords! He won’t close his Facebook account! How can I monitor this?

You don’t have to. The fact that they feel entitled to their privacy means this is a nonstarter. They feel entitled to not answer your questions. They feel entitled to keep working with the person. They feel entitled to keep their good opinion of the affair partner alive.

The biggest, most humungous entitlement I see after discovery is that cheaters feel entitled to reconciliation, period. They think they deserve all the time they want to come out of the “fog.” To answer your questions. To read a book, or schedule a shrink appointment. They feel grossly entitled to a chump’s patience.

Moreover, they feel entitled to all the marital perks they enjoyed before discovery of their affairs. Comfort and validation from the chump. Sex. Housework. Income.

Humility is much harder. Humility means that it’s not all about you. It means you manage your expectations of any reward. Humility accepts consequences and lets go of outcomes. Humility does not try to control the narrative or protect its image.

Humility is painful. It wrestles with shame. Humility recognizes that regaining trust is a long, slow process that may end, despite their best efforts. Humility works hard without pay. Humility is forthcoming. Humility doesn’t keep secrets.

Most chumps who desire reconciliation accept that transforming entitlement into humility is a process. And so, after being betrayed, wrestling with their own enormous grief, chumps accept yet MORE humility and eat shit sandwiches waiting for their cheaters to catch up on this humility thing.

That makes me mad. All the false starts and failures at no contact. Cheaters “grieving” the affair partner, staring blankly at questions and “not remembering.”

Chumps believe in humility, because they’re so good at it. They believe their cheaters will come around. They see displays of regret, tears, apologies and put a lot of stock in that. They stay the course, because they believe in the transformative powers of pain. Surely, this person will see how much they hurt me and will feel moved to fix this. Chumps also believe that the cheater’s own pain will make them connect the dots of action to consequence.

I’m still a chump, because I still believe those things. I do think people change. I don’t think everyone is a sociopath narcissist unable to feel empathy. But I think change is HARD and is a tremendous example of delayed gratification. So much work goes into lasting change and the rewards are not immediate. I do not believe this is an attractive course of action for most cheaters.

Why would someone prone to escapism — an affair — become someone capable of delayed gratification? The rewards of reconciliation are not immediate and they’re humbling. Why would someone high on entitlement choose the painful path of humility? Because there’s so much to lose! One’s family and finances and the respect of the children!

Cheaters don’t think they’re going to lose that. Why? Because you’re still there. Helping them with their homework, walking with them, holding their hand on this humility thing. Reconciliation itself, does not help cheaters with their entitlement issues. If anything, it hurts authentic progress because it doesn’t level meaningful consequences.

But they’ll be so grateful you gave them that chance! Yes, I want to believe that too. But how has that worked out for the many chumps here — refugees of failed reconciliations, some many years after the original affair? And even if cheaters do feel a true sense of gratitude for another chance — can they kill off entitlement thinking altogether?

Reformed cheaters can be like dry drunks. All the entitlement, without the sexual acting out. They may spend more of the marital assets, do less housework, not work a regular job. Why? Because they’re special. I think at some level they believe that you are fortunate to have the wonderfulness that is them. Is that better? Is that worth saving?

If you were a cheater examining your choices after DDay, what would be your most likely choice? Authentic reconciliation — shame and mortification, hard work of trust rebuilding without guaranteed reward, but you get to keep your marriage and family and finances intact. Eternal expressed gratitude to your chump for taking you back.

Or cake! The veneer of reconciliation, doing the bare minimum in terms of apologies and marriage counseling. No shame, no mortification (because the chump won’t tell anyone and will continue to protect your image). Marriage, family, and finances intact. And options remain open for current or future affairs.

Or escape! Follow the rainbow and start over with your sparkly affair partner. Okay, you lose the marriage, family, and half the finances, but you gain sparkles and there is some imaginary trading up. If you remain “friends” with your ex, you may be able to control the narrative or have another person to fuck once in awhile. The escape option also keeps cake alive.

Or divorce. No marriage, half time with family (if that), half the finances. Mortification, shame, no controlling the chump’s narrative. But a chance to start over with a clean slate and someone new.

The only two honest choices here are authentic reconciliation and divorce. The two hardest paths. If you’re a person with demonstrated poor character, which path do you think would be most tempting? If you’re prone to escapism and entitlement — how long do you think you can stay on a hard path without lapsing? Only one of these paths requires total humility — reconciliation. The other three let you keep most or all of your cookies.

See why I’m skeptical?

www.chumplady.com/2013/07/reconciliation-and-entitlement/

hellsbellsmelons · 17/09/2019 14:37

I've no idea @Helmetbymidnight
It's crazy and stupid and very misguided.
To this day my ExH couldn't tell me why he cheated.
He loved me. We were very happy. Did loads of stuff. Laughed a lot. Lived a happy life. Lots of love from family. Lots of friends.
He did it because he COULD!
Not because he was unhappy.
He did it because he thought he would get away with it.
Not because he was unhappy.
Worse decision of his life - so he tells me.

YourLittleVeniceBitch · 17/09/2019 14:50

I'll read the article LadySutch, thank you. At first glance it appears to be about reconciliation after infidelity in a relationship. I already know I could never even attempt that again (I did in my previous ltr). I firmly believe now that once the trust is gone, very little of worth remains.

Fizzy
"I think you know that that's what is really bothering you.
That is why you can't make peace with this."

No, that's not how I feel actually but thanks for telling me so authoritatively what's going on in my own head.

OP posts:
Rainbowhairdontcare · 17/09/2019 14:52

All of this "entitlement" really only applies to long loved affairs. I know some siblings who had affairs almost simultaneously.

Nobody really minded about the sister's because it was well known that her exH was a great dad but terrible husband. Her SIL even condoned it, the affair lasted 3 months or so now she lis with him and her DDs. The exH took everything graciously and the girls who are in her teens are extremely well adjusted, her world wasn't blown apart, nothing like that. Then the brother had an affair. Everybody on his side of the family knew he was unhappy. His exW however (who condoned her SILs affair) involved the DC, things like "let's destroy everything your father owned", told them openly that it was HIS fault their family wasnt together anymore. The affair also lasted only three months, three months where he tried to get out as "kindly" as possible -that was his mistake-. The DC are fine, but in the process they were hurt, there was no need for them to see/hear the things they did.

All I'm trying to say is that the ramifications of an affair can be managed by both sides.

neverornow · 17/09/2019 14:57

I cheated on the love of my life about 15 years ago and still regret it. We split and both married other people and I can tell you that I would never, ever do it again.
I still remember my ex's face when I told him and will never forget the guilt and shame I felt for being so stupid and for treating him badly. Not all cheats go on to cheat again. And it sounds like your DH has learned his lesson.

Techway · 17/09/2019 15:14

massively important in nurturing a relationship and keeping it fun and interesting imo

What could happen if the relationship becomes challenging and dull for a period of time?

It is so easy to be faithful in the good fun times and character is when you stick to your values irrespective of circumstances.

The fact that he has a good relationship with Ex is positive as it shows he was not destructive/vindictive in the divorce.

I would caution against the use of "children adore him", as that is not sensible after 18 months and probadly idealistic thinking on your behalf. It could keep you in the relationship when you need to move on.

The other thing is to trust your gut, perhaps your head is telling you the facts (such as family back up his story) but your gut is ringing alarm bells. Also at 18months no family are going to tell you exactly what he is like, they will put on a positive spin and he won't introduce you to people who think he behaved badly.

Just take it really slowly, listen for gut instincts and don't commit until you feel completely happy. If he is a good man his behaviour will reassure you...will take at least a few years as still honeymoon period.

AnastasiaBeverleyHills · 17/09/2019 15:44

@screamingladysutch , it wasn't one therapist, it was 4 therapists over 10 years. I am very happy with where I am now in my life and I thank them for every piece of myself I recovered. For the record none of them gave me advice, as no good therapist should, instead they listened as I reasoned out my own life and victimhood.

I also have children. Of course what my ExH did impacted them. Of course our lives were changed irrevocably but to be honest I wouldn't go back. I know myself so much more now. I am grateful for what I have and who am I and who my children are becoming. The victimhood is implied, constantly, in the posts above and the posts I have seen over and over again. By embracing this we, as people whose partners have cheated, are doing ourselves a huge disservice. Discover your true self, be resilient, be adaptable, be free and embrace the life you have not the life you thought you wanted.

OP this is entirely off topic so I apologise. I stick by what I said about his actions since rather than his actions during his previous marriage. You don't know if he'll cheat, however you don't know if anyone else will either. I still recommend couples counselling as a way to hash this out between you.

fannycraddock72 · 17/09/2019 15:53

“He has never minimised or made excuses for it.“

My DP was the same when we met, completely open about it etc.. I was in love and I didn’t really care I was just glad to be together and the reasons for my DP’s cheating were both convincing and at the same time irrelevant due to my love blindness.

Fast forward 16 years...married, 2 beautiful kids a lovely home, not financially well off but happy 😃.

or so I thought! My leopard didn’t change its spots...now divorced due to infidelity, everything that post that chump lady wrote about cheating, entitlement and disordered personality couldn’t be more accurate.

I hope things work out differently for you OP.

Orangepearl · 17/09/2019 15:59

Careful everyone’s ‘massively compatible’ after 18 months’ Smile. Agree your in the rose tinted faze.

ChristmasFluff · 17/09/2019 16:06

The thing that would ring slight alarm bells for me is that he talks about how he regrets it because it has affected his relationship with his children. It's still about him.

I cheated on a boyfriend in the 1990s (we lived together). It was the pain I caused to him that made me vow never to hurt another person like that again. I also didn't like the lying sneaky way I acted - I took a good long look at myself and I didn't like what I saw, so I changed it.

If your DP has looked at himself, decided he didn't like what he saw, and worked to change: and if the primary driver for that was his horror at the devastation he caused to his wife, as well as his children (and not just the fact that it has affected his relationship with them) - then there's a chance he has really changed.

I think also how long he cheated for makes a difference - I couldn't cope with the lies after 2 weeks, and had to confess. Someone who can do it for years, and only confesses when they are caught out, has a different moral compass I think.

ravenmum · 17/09/2019 16:24

The thing that strikes me is that OP really does not want to move in with anyone at all, but is planning on moving in with this guy anyway as she feels she "should", even though his infidelity is making her particularly uncomfortable. Also that she's only mentioned this aspect in passing.

YourLittleVeniceBitch · 17/09/2019 16:46

raven Where have I said that I plan to move in with him?

I'll answer that for you, I haven't. I've said we've discussed it in a totally theoretical context.

Y'see this is why people get irritated with MN. Posters don't bother to read the thread and just make up whatever imaginary narrative they want to validate their own (rigid and often blinkered) opinions.

Thanks for the helpful posts of which there have been plenty. Lots for me to think about going forward.

OP posts:
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 17/09/2019 16:59

ANYBODY is capable of having an affair no matter what they say. Whether they do or they don't is attributable to many circumstances.

Your partner's previous marriage ended because of an affair, people do not have affairs when they are happy in their relationships. I know that people say they do but that makes no sense really.

He's now in another relationship, one with you. He's been open and honest from the start with you, had counselling, explained his relationship with his children. He's not given you any pause for thought so what has triggered the worry now? If you had been seriously worried, you would have shied away from him at the start, wouldn't you? You did, you gave him the benefit of the doubt and he hasn't been found letting you down in any way, has he?

I loath the trope spouted here about spotted leopards and mistress vacancies, they're largely bollocks. People are not robots, they have capacity to make severe lapses in judgement and they have the capability to acknowledge those lapses and ensure they don't have them again. I was an OW, would never ever do it again. I can say that categorically as I recognise the signs (having been there).

Somebody who has never done a dreadful or hurtful thing in their life is someone with a selective or poor memory and an overactive bent for judgement on other people.

Talk to your husband again, iron out this wrinkle so that you can put it behind you both once and for all. The alternative is to end your marriage on the 'off-chance' and that would be a shame.

Best wishes to you.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 17/09/2019 17:00

Partner, not husband, sorry.

LulaLandry · 17/09/2019 17:03

He may never do it again, but he is capable of it.

So is everyone.

Robin2323 · 17/09/2019 17:09

@AnastasiaBeverleyHills
That is the most refreshing thing I've ever read on affairs.
(Both posts).

Leftielefterson · 17/09/2019 17:26

Well it’s not ideal but so many people cheat these days. Even some of the people on here who irl who claim their exes are “rampant cheats” have actually cheated themselves. He may have a predisposition to cheat but you can’t really know at this point.

Fwiw I cheated on a boyfriend and would never ever do it again, I really have learnt my lesson there but you just can’t tell what another person is capable of. My ex was a cheat and I thought he’d changed when he met someone else, I was really cheering for them (because his new gf is so lovely) but he’s tried it on with me so many times lately that I’ve realised he will never change unfortunately, but that’s just one instance and that’s not to say your DP is the same.

I think being open with one another is key to you building that rock solid trust and not in the stalky - I’ll add you to find my friends and send you location updates every 20 minutes, that is horrendous (been there!).

83PL · 17/09/2019 17:37

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe how can you say that everyone is capable of having an affair? Having an affair is a CHOICE 🤷‍♀️. There's lots of things that can be done to prevent affairs happening. I would never allow myself to make certain choices that could result in crossing the line or cheating. How can you say you're sure you'll never be the OW again but you can't accept it when people say they would never cheat?

Also, not everyone that cheats is unhappy. People cheat for lots of different reasons. Most people caught having an affair stay with their spouse, why would they stay if they were so unhappy?

83PL · 17/09/2019 17:56

@ScreamingLadySutch absolutely spot on 👌🏻

Robin2323 · 17/09/2019 18:10

I think they stay because despite being 'unhappy ' they do love their spouse.

They reach for something outside their selves to make them feel happy.

This fails because happiness is an inside job.

Robin2323 · 17/09/2019 18:16

I do think people cheat because sad, lonely, neglected etc
Maybe broken.

So 'chump' lady doesn't completely add up.

How can someone be super happy with their spouse and make time to see someone else?

Even the biggest playboy will settle down if he's happy.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 17/09/2019 18:19

83PL, it is not so easy to leave a marriage and, if you are a man, your ready access to your children is not guaranteed. It's not easy to disentangle a long relationship where there are finances and legalities and families entwined. As a man or a woman, you face censure if you leave; if you stay then outsiders collude that 'it's all ok now'.

I know that many people believe that cheaters stay with their family because they were happy all along then, it's not an opinion I agree with from what I've seen.

I won't comment on your talisman-of-surety about cheating (that you never would), only you know that. But, for me, sorry, that's what they all say. Read any number of threads here about men who have upped and left and the bereft partner is bewildered and stating that 'he was the last man you'd ever think of doing this'.

I did have an affair and it was so, so damaging that I would never do it again and can say so categorically. Lots of people never cheat but many are not in that position either. I agree with you that it's a choice though.

I read Chumplady and some parts I agree with and some I don't; it's like anything else though, people read and agree with bits that resonate and ignore (or try to ignore) the bits that they don't like.

There are more affairs going on than anybody knows about. Sort of like the uneasy knowledge that you're only 100ft away from a rat...

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 17/09/2019 18:22

I agree with Robin2323.

I also think that if people had a crystal ball and could see the outfall of their affairs, they wouldn't do it. I also think that if they could see their lives pre-marriage, they may wait or not marry that person at all.

I feel very sorry for the OP because something must have happened since to disquiet her peace in her relationship to be asking the question now.

FudgeBrownie2019 · 17/09/2019 18:30

Even the biggest playboy will settle down if he's happy.

I don't think this is necessarily true. I think happy people in 'normal' relationships without great problems can and do still cheat simply because the opportunity arises and they're the type to take the chance.

I agree that everyone has the capacity to cheat, but I also think I'd doubt someone who behaved the way your DP has in the past because shitting on your wife and children is a huge red flag in terms of his morals.