Don't know if he is abusive. Head a mess.

[JoannaCuppa]

Hi. I am currently on my first holiday with new DP and my DD. We have been together over a year but don't live together.

I feel really anxious all the time and can't understand what is happening. My DP and I fell for each other very quickly. He seemed literally everything that I ever wanted. But who he is being now, sometimes, just isn't tallying with that.

He is being very quiet, but maintaining nothing is wrong. His tone of voice when talking to both me and DD can sound really harsh and "off".

He is drinking a bottle and a half of wine a night, which is normal for him at weekends and holidays (the only times I see him), but then gets really cross in bed when I ask him to roll over because he is snoring. I have ended up sleeping in my DD's bed with her as I can't get any sleep with him. I have told him but he just keeps drinking.

He is really skint at the moment for reasons beyond his control. I have paid for the holiday, most of the petrol, meals out, and he pays for much less as he physically doesn't have it. Fine. Except he is buying wine every day so he can afford that. I feel he is taking the piss.

My DD has gone from adoring him to feeling a bit scared of him. She is afraid to say anything negative to him because he "looks grumpy". He does have "resting grump face" which he can't help, and his default look is mild fury. However, I obviously can't have my daughter scared. She has ASD and manages really well, but does struggle sometimes. I don't want to blame him for things like his face which he can't control, but nor do I want her scared. So I don't know where the balance lies.

It sounds silly and small, considering he does all the cooking and has looked after me and DD well as I have had a chronic illness flare whilst we are here, but he is so very messy. He cooks and I tidy, but the kitchen looks like a poltergeist has hit it. I don't feel I can say much as he has cooked but it is mad how messy it is. He also insists on eating pretty late but DD needs to eat earlier. He is happy to feed her around the time he used to feed his DDs, about 7, but mine needs her dinner around 6. I keep telling him but it just isn't his default yet.

Oh, and he reversed his car twice into other cars whilst we have been away. Now admittedly the parking sensors glitched and didnt go off, but I have now remembered that he had drunk a bottle.of wine and a third of a 70cl bottle of rum the day before. He didnt drive until the following afternoon. Would he have been clear of alcohol by then or not? I don't really drink so have no idea, though obviously wouldn't have let him drive if he had driven within a few hours of drinking. It just didn't occur to me until afterwards.

I am wondering where the perfect man I met has gone. He isn't tactile at all with me now, hasn't instigated sex as he has been collapsing into bed sozzled.

He maintains he isn't an alcoholic, but I am no longer sure.

I can't think straight because who he is seems so at odds with who he was for a long time. Am I being too picky and critical? Have I lost perspective? He always seems vaguely cross with DD and I and it doesn't feel comfortable.

Sorry for the length. Please help but be gentle. I am really confused. My primary concern is for DD. She can be naughty and her dad is crap at discipline, and I know DP feels annoyed at her attitude sometimes but says little. On the othet hand, she is my DD and has to come first.

Yet, in my heart, I know it has all gone too far and can't be repaired. Who I fell in love with isn't who he has been acting like recently.

The reality is, she did adore him then got to know him better and went off him.

You've answered your own question here OP. Abusive men put on an act in the beginning to draw you in, but it is a mask. They pretend to be everything you've ever wanted by studying and mirroring you. It's common to feel like you have met your soul mate.

Over time, they realise that you are not the perfect person they thought you were in the beginning (I.e you are an imperfect human like the rest of us) and the mask starts to slip. That's when you start feeling like they have changed but the reality is they were never who they pretended to be in the first place. This side you are seeing now is the REAL him.

The best way to know this early on (I'm assuming you've been together less than a year) is by your gut instincts. Yours and your DDs are screaming at you but the reality of picking a bad one is too painful for you and it is easier to explain it away with the reasons you have listed above. What makes it more difficult is that these men are highly manipulative and talk a good game which is what he did when you invited him over. This is called cognitive dissonance and it's one of the reasons that many women stay in abusive relationships.

You really need to do some work on learning the signs of abuse as you are sleepwalking right into his trap. I've been there and it's my biggest regret because I exposed my DC to someone who only meant us harm.

I know it's easier to be defensive and pretend that his version is the truth but you know deep down this isn't true other wise you wouldnt have posted here in the first place (just re read you thread title).

I think that's why some PP's maybe come across to you as insensitive but really they are gobsmacked at just how naive and vulnerable you are.

I also have an ASD child and the way he wants to parent your DD is way out of line and will cause her so much damage as she will be very vulnerable to abuse because of the ASD. If even she can pick up on his bad vibes, it must be blatantly obvious as ASD children are not good at picking up on social nuances.

Even if you can't fully believe what we are all saying yet OP, please stay away from him and analyse all of this with a counsellor. You are wide open to future abusive men even if you leave this guy because you are so very naive to the tactics they use. The fact that you cant seem to grasp what being with an alcoholic really entails, the pain and confusion and drama you will be signing up to when you already have your hands full with a disabled child just beggars belief.

Please walk away from this man and stay strong like you were when you ended it before.

I am the epitome of the "last woman you would think would be in this situation". That's what scares me.

Please watch this video if nothing else. It really explains your situation and thought processes to a T

JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain - this is what people do when they try to minimise and twist the facts to suit themselves. They will engage in circular arguments and talk, debate and rationalize until they are exhausted. Part of the CD process highlighted above.

I am not laughing at you at all and I am sorry if it came across that way but I am still howling at how he has presented and minimised his alcoholism - as he didn’t notice he was sipping away so much whilst reading.......

He isn’t misunderstood - he is a drunk who lives 24/7 with a dark, angry hangover. Don’t expose your precious DD to him anymore.

Yep, you are all right.

I have just been chatting to my exH about DP. Ex and other family were there for the first week of the holiday. Ex says he is concerned at how much DP was drinking but wasn't sure if it is because we were on holiday. He also said that because DP has a loud voice (he is a bit deaf) and sometimes sounds stern with DD, that's why DD struggles with him.

Ex says he doesnt think DP is knowingly cruel, just doesn't think and can sound "gruff". However, I have said to exH that DP has twice said stuff to DD which I have not liked the content of in addition to the delivery. ExH agreed that he was pissed off with DP on one occasion too when he said something we felt was out of line.

I have asked exH what he thinks I should do. He said either DP modifies the way he has spoken to DD and knocks the drinking on the head, or I should get rid.

ExH really liked DP at first. They socialised together and all sorts, but ex was concerned last week.

The thing that is bothering me the most, is that I know all that you are saying, but I feel strangely enmeshed. And I can't work out why. Love has never been enough for me if there are huge problems elsewhere. I ended my marriage when I still loved my husband, although I wasn't "in love" with him.

I can't work out why I am finding this so hard. It honestly feels like I can't think straight. I have remembered how at the start with DP I wondered if I was being love bombed. I think I have had reservations all along in some form, but can't understand how I have not seen them and why I have been like this.

It really isn't like me. At all!

@Jaffacakesaremyfave

I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for that. Some bits resonated with me but, more importantly, it was a massive warning about how not prioritising to my DD's feelings could badly affect her.

I realised that even if I keep DP away from DD, to give her more time to get used to the idea of him more, the emotional energy I am expending on DP is energy I could be putting into her. I won't do that to her.

The love I had with exH is that calm, gentle love. It became friendship but it was real love at the start. The real kind. The love I thought I had with DP isn't real love. I wouldn't feel so unsettled if it was.

So yes, I will end it again. Is it bad to do that online so that I don't get sucked back in in a face to face situation?

You have only been with this guy for just over a year and you don't live together. However, he feels that he has the right to speak to you and your DD harshly, make a mess cooking and being mean to you, lose interest in sex and snort like a drunken pig instead. This is who he really is, not the sexy guy you thought he was. He will only get worse, and that could be a great deal worse. The problem with people like him is that they try to normalise their behaviour so you begin to agree that it is OK. Then they undermine your confidence so that making any decision becomes very difficult. Dump him now. Save yourself.

The love I thought I had with DP isn't real love. I wouldn't feel so unsettled if it was.

I completely agree!

I would send him a text (or email) saying you have had time to think and realised this is not going to work for you and the relationship is over. Then block him on everything. He is very likely to Hoover you and start making false promises to change, quit drinking etc but it's all a ploy. I'm worried you may fall for the act like you did when you took him back so keep him blocked. It is not heartless, it is essential that you do this.

Stay strong OP

The thing that is bothering me the most, is that I know all that you are saying, but I feel strangely enmeshed again very common to feel this way when with an abusive man. Falling in love with a narcissist (yes he is one) is like a drug and will feel very different to the stable and secure love you had with exH which developed over time. It can be addictive and hard to break free from but you already know it's not real and actually quite dangerous.

Okey dokey.

I sadly cant just block him. I have £1000s of pounds worth of his furniture here which didn't fit into his rental. So I need to be in contact whilst he arranges removal of it.

I will arrange for someone to be here with me at those times though, or to go out whilst he has it all put into storage.

I have decided to keep the cat unless he wants her back. She has been through enough and deserves a settled home. She is happy with me and DD so she can stay. My DD adores her anyway.

I would hold onto his furniture until he pays you back the 1k he owes you. I doubt you will get it back otherwise and at least you can use it as collateral if he doesnt pay.

Well done OP. Keep going. Hope you get to keep the cat!

This is a bit random, but do you think DP could be ASD/HFA himself? It’s just you’ve described him and he seems to fit some of the common traits? I suppose it is irrelevant now as you have broken up but it occurred to me while reading your posts.

Best of luck to you & DD xx

To be honest, I don't care about the money. I just want rid of all trace of him. Including the damn furniture. The cat is worth a lot anyway, so I shall keep her instead. Plus, I look after her far better than he did.

Yes, I do think that 'D'P has some ASD traits. That never bothered me. My exH has, my mum has, my DD has, I have a bit too. So I am used to that. But he does have fixed behaviours that he doesn't realise are inappropriate to others.

I would be interested in the traits that you identified actually. It is academic as he is just fundamentally wrong for my DD. He would have to change who he is and has always been. I can't have the drinking normalised for her. And he keeps making jokes with his dry humour which she doesn't realise are jokes. He has tried to watch himself with this, but it is who he is so they always slip out.

To be honest, I am just done with him. It's very sad, but it shouldn't be this difficult. I should feel light, happy and free in a new relationship. Instead, I feel stressed to hell. My DD is so much happier now she isn't around him. She says he "makes her unhappy". Some of that is certainly jealousy at someone else sharing my time, and the fact that he isn't her daddy. But irrespective of why, she has been unhappy and I can't do that to her. She only told me this last week that he made her unhappy. Before that she has been positive about him.

I have learned that I need to take future relationships slowly in terms of when my DD meets them. They need to view themselves as a friend rather than a step parent for a long time. And they need to be naturally a person who doesn't wind kids up with dry humour and inappropriate jokes. And not drink so bloody much all the time.

At a party or a night out, I dont care if my other half gets pissed as a fart (so long as they aren't driving). I like sharing a bottle of red on a weekend. I just mind the tedium of nightly drinking until the early hours. It's dull! And seems like a downward spiral into alcoholism.

Thanks fir all the feedback here. I do appreciate it.

Don’t weaken OP. I went back to my ex who my kids disliked three times. He was emotionally abusive to me and each time I ended it the pain was more and more severe. I’ve escaped the cycle now of going back hoping he would be the wonderful man I thought he was initially and realised it was an illusion and he was a fake, a leech and a narcissist. It’s a dangerous emotional cycle they keep pulling you back into claiming they love you so much etc etc but nothing ever changes, it just gets worse.

OP, I think you are terribly mixed up, which I suppose is understandable.
I notice you asked your DD how she would feel if you were with another person you and she know, and she said she would be happy because he is nice. You then in a later post say that you have someone who has helped you through this and you are beginning to feel more than friendship for him.

I assume this is the same person.

So, you are never going to bother with men for a long time. Except you've mentioned this person. Then you are saying how you have loved your DP and consider all the stuff with your DD could just be because he reminds her of someone else and are you making a mistake. Then a few posts later you just want rid of him and want no trace of him.

I think you need to be on your own for a while. Spend time with DD and get some counselling. You sound like a people pleaser with low self esteem. You deserve much more than this confusion in your life.

@SorryDidISayThatOutLoud

I assume this is the same person

You would be very, very wrong.

The person I gave as an example to my DD was my friend's husband who we saw quite a bit on holiday, who DD thinks of as an Uncle.

As for the rest, I have used the thread to work through my feelings and confusion. Unsurprisingly, that has involved writing down my confused feelings. That was the point of the thread!

My self esteem is fine, thanks. I really am not a huge people pleaser in general. I have fairly good boundaries the vast majority of the time. That is why all this is so unlike me.

Whilst most posts have been really helpful, what I do find crosses the line on threads like this, is the amateur armchair diagnoses that people throw about willy nilly, and the conclusions people jump to e.g. someone making assumptions about another man I discussed with DD.

Framing advice on assumptions rather than what is written is spectacularly unhelpful. Ironically, if I was a complete people pleaser, I wouldn't have written this particular post.

Please can people stop with the armchair diagnoses of people. I worked in psychiatry for years. Us MH professionals cannot diagnose via the internet. And if posters aren't MH professionals, they have no business diagnosing anyway.

I have met so many properly diagnosed people with NPD. I can tell you now that someone who has some Narc traits is still nothing like a person with an NPD diagnosis.

My STBXDP does show narc traits. Is he a covert narc? No. He doesn't meet the strict DSM criteria. He is an addict, part of which involves huge selfishness which can be mistaken for being a Narc, but they arent the same thing.

The only reason I am going on about this, is because the flippant online diagnoses really undermines any other valid points that a poster makes.

Also in MH, there is a very good term used to describe men like my STBXDP. We would call him a "cruel bastard". Not everything is about having a mental disorder, which a personality disorder is. Most of the time, arseholes are just arseholes.

Flippant diagnoses of arseholes as Narcs give those people with genuine diagnoses of PDs, who may be struggling and trying very hard to overcome it, a bad name. So please people, think twice before doing it.

Three things: my dad died of alchoholism. All his test results came back perfect for years, but then his body and mind collapsed and the last ten years were sad and awful for everyone. Secondly, making a hideous mess when cooking is really unnecessary, selfish and exhausting for you, yet he gets that warm glow of being super helpful. Let's face it, bet you'd rather heat a quiche and have salad on the side, with 3 minutes clearing up. Lastly, he may have a 'grumpy face' but I do find ASD kids are MORE sensitive to true emotions (which they find harder to process and scary) and your DD may be reacting to an adult who finds her trying. Which is hard for her! She will find a non-parent's irritation far more scary than mum or dad. Maybe this holiday has been an eye opener...and you do NOT need permission or abuse to end things...

Ahh sorry...realised you ended it. Hope you are happily eating quiche (bit early I guess)

I agree with Sorry - i think you have a very complicated set up - you are discussing your DP with your exH - you have already had your head turned by someone else, your marriage has only been over for 3 years ( I may have this wrong) and for someone who worked in psychiatry for years you are relying on complete strangers who have obviously been in abusive relationships from the strength of feeling on this thread to give you advise on your relationship based on very limited information.

One thing I picked up on - you said when you first told your Dp you wanted to finish things he didn’t come and chat to you as you would have liked which in your mind was confirming you had made the right decision.

Personally I do not think your DP is abusive - every issue you have raised he has talked over with you and suggested ways to deal with this - someone who shows narc tendencies would not do this - it would be their way or no way. You say he has money problems you do not explain why?

As for the drinking - I’m sure there are many people out there relying on alcohol to deal with life’s stressors - maybe he did not realise how much he was drinking until someone pointed this out.

To be on holiday with a new partner and their child is stressful enough - never mind having their Ex h there plus family and friends who you have obviously known for a longtime and are close too. The guy must have felt like he was being assessed which pretty much seems what you were doing.

I realise I’m against the grain here - pretty normal for me - but your fears and intuition are getting mixed up.

I’m not sure if your marriage was abusive - you mention addiction - what was this? and you mention narc traits - the fact that you ended up feeling like friends - could have been you picking up on signals that you have not yet processed - maybe your ExH was more “ controlling” than you think .

Flippant diagnoses of arseholes as Narcs give those people with genuine diagnoses of PDs, who may be struggling and trying very hard to overcome it, a bad name. So please people, think twice before doing it

I totally disagree with you OP. Have you ever met a narc who genuinely wants to overcome their PD? If you have, they can't be a true narc because it goes against the nature of the disorder. They may be unhappy being a narc but as they lack empathy, they generally dont give a shit who they hurt so they have no motive to change. I'd love to know of anyone you've met with NPD who is desperately trying to change so they stop destroying lives.

Please can people stop with the armchair diagnoses of people. I worked in psychiatry for years. Us MH professionals cannot diagnose via the internet. And if posters aren't MH professionals, they have no business diagnosing anyway I'm not trying to 'diagnose' him with NPD but its easier to say he's a narc than "he shows many narcissistic traits". If narcissism is a scale, where does the tipping point lie? How many narc traits (that you admit yourself he has) does he need before suspect he might be one.

Also, many recent studies on NPD are based on questionnaires that narcs fill in (who are by definition pathological liars) and by the nature of NPD they dont seek professional help for professionals to gain a representative sample size and develop more accurate diagnostic criteria. Estimates are that 10% of the population are narcs so I'm assuming the vast majority wont get a diagnosis. Without that, the best you can do to protect yourself is to learn the common traits and emotional abuse tactics they often employ.

You keep saying how you're not the type of person this could happen to. Abuse happens to people from all walks of life and has nothing to do with social status or intelligence. I have 2 degrees and am also a senior health professional, yet have been targeted by narcs many times. It's a very dangerous stance to take that you are not the sort to be targeted because that makes you incredibly vulnerable to abuse in the future.

The reason people are suggesting people pleasing/codependency is because it beggars belief that anyone would consider staying in a relationship with an alcoholic who scares their child. It's not a criticism OP and I'm glad you have now seen sense and ended it but it might be something you want to explore why you even considered this.

I really wish you and your DD all the best of luck in the future and I really hope I am wrong about him being a narc because he will likely harrass you if he is one.

@Green, I think you have got some of the story jumbled up about the exH.

Well said Jaffa, completely agree with your points. It is under diagnosed as narcisstic people do not seek to change as insight is lacking.

Narcisstic behaviour is on a scale, healthy through to magnilant. My experience with a partner with NPD caused me to seek support from a clinical psychologist who specialised in PD. It is through their insight that I have learned the behaviours. It doesn't really matter if a person is labelled narcisstic, what is important is that the behaviour is flagged and that there is knowledge that positive change is very unlikely. Too many people (like myself) remain in bad relationships because they assume their partner can change. A well known clinician in the field of NPD says it is like an elastic band..it can be stretched to look different but it will always go back to the original change.

@MsKhan* - I remember well, when life seemed so cut and dried from the outside looking in, too.

No I fully understand what you mean - it is easy for others to sit back and say 'I can't believe x y z' 'I would do this ' when in reality we have no idea how we would react if placed in that situation. Heck, I've had enough situations of my own where being judged was the last thing I wanted - sorry if I did come across as judgemental.

Well done on your decision to leave him!! I've not read the entire thread after that but upto the point where you say you have decided to leave but I'm so relieved for you and your dd!

I'm not usually a member of LTB and I believe in working on relationships but heavy alcohol is involved here and more importantly it's about how your dd feels. Given that it's not been a long term relationship and you don't live together , binning him is definitely a good move. Well done op. Stay strong.

If he makes you feel uncomfortable then it's all wrong. If you were in a worthwhile relationship you wouldn't be coming on here and asking us what we think because you would feel secure in the relationship.
I always think trust your intuition, nothing you feel is ridiculous or petty, you have serious concerns and feel like piggy in the middle.
Personally I'd run for the hills.

It's a new relationship, you don't live together, your child is scared of him - just sack it off. He isn't good enough for you, don't settle for a sub standard relationship. No man is better than a shit man.

He's not abusive as such but he's a borderline alcoholic and a waste of space.

Thanks everyone.

I do know what you mean Jaffa, I just worry that other people with personality disorders who are trying to change, end up being tarred with the same brush as those with NPD.

Most people have some Narc traits. To be diagnosed with NPD means a certain criteria has to be met. The criteria isn't a sliding scale.

I am not saying this to defend him, but because I worry about others with things such as BPD being seen in the same light.

Anyway, the man is an addict. And he has been dumped. My daughter seems so much happier. My exH (whoever said I was talking to my exH about it and thought it was weird - my exH is like a brother to me and I respect his opinion. So yes, I will discuss it with him, same as he discusses his love life with me) was worried about the drinking too and it being normalised for our DD.

ExH also spotted some mean comments to DD whilst we were away and was less than impressed.

Ex's attitude was "you warned him loads of times and did the right thing in ending it" which makes me happy.

My best mate and my mumsnet mate have both said the same, and they are both very honest with me. And my mum is also relieved.

When the people that care about you are relieved, it says everything.

I keep remembering more ane more stuff thst he did which was bad and it has totally killed off my feelings. That probably makes me shallow that they can be killed so fast, but it js like I have seen things I can't unsee and the rose tinted glasses have come off.

Thanks to all for their advice. I do appreciate it.

With regard to me being the last person you would expect this to happen to, I wasn't meaning education or social status. I meant as someone known in my social circle as not taking any shit from men. That's why it has caught me unawares.

Still, he is gone and I never want to see him again. He can get his stuff and then fuck off.

It usually only takes one small thing to happen and then rose tinted glasses drop.
It's happened in my last 2 relationships.
Just see something or something is said and that it!!!
The 'ick factor' hits and that's the end.

It's also great that you have such a good relationship with your Ex.

So pleased your DD is now happier as well.

Here's to the future OP!

OP you are fantastic 💐💪