Expectations of men as a modern woman dating...is this unreasonable?

[Turtleneckjumpers]

I'm single. I have a decent job which allowed me to buy a house in my late twenties (by no means a mansion, worth circa 220 in 2015).

I care about a nice home and want to see a bit of the world. I'm not materialistic in the sense of buying designer clothes etc (I'm a Primark person mostly!). But money bothers me. It is important to me because it is a safety net in many ways. So I work hard and hope to always be able to support myself.

Here's the question. I date. So many men have either not bought a house (I do understand this isn't easy, but by age 38 I question this!!) or in an average job earning less than I am - significantly.

I've met a lovely man, 38, good fun. But in a recent conversation he voluntarily disclosed what he earns (45k) and said he has a good bonus and car and he's happy with that. I didn't say this but i was thinking really?! Are you just going to think ok I'm happy with that?!

I've been thinking about how awful this probably makes me and how it is probably why i have been single for a few years now. Also people into their jobs are often (not always i know) not the best partners. But i can't help being bothered by this. I want someone who wants to provide and is ambitious. Am I attracted to the wrong things here or is this reasonable?

Buy you appear to live in a bubble so your experience is quite narrow.

I know a lot about jobs - it's essentially my job to know a lot about jobs and I can assure you that ( as others have explained) more money often means more responsibility, higher expectations and longer hours.

Those aren't necessarily bad things but for some they're a deal breaker and they would happily 'settle' on a salary that affords them a nice life in a job they enjoy. You may see that as being unambitious but others would view it differently.

Because it suggests you've somehow stumbled into a job that is incredibly well paid despite apparently not requiring all that much nous to do it, that is somehow utterly divorced from everyone else's lived reality, and has incredible opportunities for those that seek them that don't mean sacrifices elsewhere in your life. And on top of that, everyone close to you is doing similarly well from it.

I don’t respect someone who chooses not to progress in their chosen industry at 38 with no other commitments.

I meet people I don't respect everyday. I don't make lengthy threads on MN about them though.

Once again: Why are you so invested in this guy? You had one (?) date. He's clearly not for you. Why are you devoting so much time and energy to complaining that he doesn't meet your standards? He owes you nothing.

Yes lola but this man doesn’t have children yet and is just drawing a line under anything else! He has every opportunity to maximise earnings now.

Maybe his goal it to learn Spanish, playing the piano or just having a bit of peace and quiet and read interesting books after work.
It's literally funny OP that you can't get your head round it being ok too. He doesn't harm anyone or live of other people's taxes.

simone I’ve obviously had stressful days here and there but I can honestly say that in the main everyone works their hours then goes home. No dramas. Those who earn more typically have less stress as that’s passed down the ranks! Do people think that as soon as you are paid over 40k that’s it your life is over?! I’ve been on 3 holidays this year and worked beyond my hours maybe 5 times since January. If that’s a problem to people so much so that they wouldn’t want to be on higher pay then...I don’t know what to say really.

JoJo that’s all well and good wanting to learn the piano (I actually do this once a week so I seem to find the time for it in my crazy high paid job), but come on, he can do both. He can read after work. I think the reality is that he can’t be bothered. And yes that is fine, but then I don’t think i should be judged as I have in this thread for wanting and expecting more from someone I would marry.

The poster who keeps asking why I am dedicating time to thinking about this man...I’m not. The thread has clearly morphed into a wider discussion. As you know, but you’re obviously out of any other related comments.

I don't think anyone has a problem with it....it's just unusual.

If you understood that you might understand why some people don't want to pursue the big bucks and promotions.

I’m completely serious. Student loans and state education exist. Plenty of people are getting by just fine in life with no parental help and not relying on the state - perhaps they even have that quality you prize so much called ambition and are supporting themselves! Funny how you hate this man for not wanting to maximise his earnings yet want to give your hypothetical kids everything on a plate and buy them privilege, don’t you want them to earn it like you apparently did? You do realise being bankrolled by mum and dad, having uni paid for upfront, bought houses and privately educated is not the norm for the vast majority of people? Even if I could afford it I wouldn’t send my children to private school anyway because I don’t believe in buying advantages and elitism

Does he do the same job as you? How do you know what impact a promotion would have on his life?

You need to understand that not everyone's job is like yours!

dodgeball the final sentence of your post tells me everything.

There is nothing wrong with privilege. I feel sorry for your children that you would leave them with student loans instead of going out of your way to help them.

Let’s just remember that student loans at 10k a year weren’t a thing for you growing up.

And how does the idea that you're some kind of moral failure for not wanting to maximise your earning potential square with the sah dream again? This thread has sunk pretty low now.

But a man who has opportunity to progress and doesn’t...it says a lot about him and not in a good way

And a woman who hunts a husband for financial dependence... it says an awful lot about her.

OP, seeing as you’re not giving info, I’m going to have a guess at what you do.

I’m guessing agency recruiter, with daddy issues.

bernes yes that’s true, the implications of a pay rise could be different. Still seems quite a young age to throw the towel in.

OP in initial post:

I've been thinking about how awful this probably makes me and how it is probably why i have been single for a few years now. Also people into their jobs are often (not always i know) not the best partners. But i can't help being bothered by this... Am I attracted to the wrong things here or is this reasonable?

MN: "you're being unreasonable"

OP in subsequent post:

I don’t think i should be judged as I have in this thread for wanting and expecting more from someone I would marry

OP if you'd already decided you were reasonable, then why self deprecate and feign lack of confidence in your views in your op?

I assume you assumed you'd have your hair stroked by MN for how the menz just haven't come up to the plate and done right by you, poor thing, where have the 1% gone etc.

He hasn't thrown the towel in!! He still has a job which pays a decent salary with a car and bonus. How on earth is that throwing the towel in?

Plus, career development is complex. He may feel differently in a few years.....but even if he doesn't you could hardly call him a failure.

I’m not sure what I thought but I’ve definitely had my eyes open to the fact that the sort of people I work with are not representative of the masses.

The poster who keeps asking why I am dedicating time to thinking about this man...I’m not

You clearly are though.

Most people meet folks on dates who aren't what they're looking for in a partner, and move on. It's part of dating, especially online dating. From what little you've told us, there seems to be nothing at all wrong with this man, except that he doesn't earn what you consider enough to subsidise you. Bit premature for a first date.

And yes that is fine, but then I don’t think i should be judged as I have in this thread for wanting and expecting more from someone I would marry.

What's 'more'? Maybe this man's idea of 'more' is a woman who wants to do her fair share in supporting the household financially, not relying on a man to be 'ambitious' enough to subsidise her lifestyle. A lot of men expect that these days, and I don't blame them.

Student loans are a fraction of your salary, you don’t pay them back until you earn over the threshold and they’re cancelled out after 30 years anyway. They’re nothing like regular debt. I did have student loans growing up actually! Not at the current level but they were still a thing, university wasn’t free. It’s also not a necessity to even go to university, it’s not right for everyone.

Not being able to see how shallow & materialistic you sound OP is hilarious! Money money money, it’s such an unpleasant attitude. Personally I value kindness over everything else, plus the ability to make me laugh uncontrollably over silly things, great sex of course, a sense of fun & someone who wants to make the world a better place whilst making the most of every moment they can. Oh and wants to dance in the kitchen at midnight after too much red wine and make me smile. Thankfully I got all that.

What I don’t care one bit about is how much someone earns. Taking pride in their work, whatever it is is attractive, as is creativity or talent or doing something that contributes in a positive way to society. Cold, hard ambition though is actually quite crass IMO. As for the man you’ve met - good for him for having got half way through life and being happy with where he is at. How can you be happy if nothing is ever good enough and you always want more & more!? It’s not just your ‘expectations of men’ that are wrong it’s your priorities!

I really hope my lovely, kind, clever (and potentially high earning doing things they love in the future) sons don’t end up with people who are more interested in the size of their bank balance and potential future earnings than all the far more important qualities that make them incredible people. Pretty sure they have better judgement and more depth than that though..

I’m not sure what I thought but I’ve definitely had my eyes open to the fact that the sort of people I work with are not representative of the masses.

Aaaaand the penny finally drops. Well, that only took 23 pages of hilarity...

Oh dear... the masses... and their ideas

Not sure how far the penny has dropped. OP, do you recognise that you're materialistic?

Yes lola but this man doesn’t have children yet and is just drawing a line under anything else! He has every opportunity to maximise earnings now
Why should he maximise his earnings now to make some future woman happy that he has enough cash to support her when she decides she wants to leave work?
Maybe he is quite happy on £45k, doing his job to a good standard, is open to promotion but not actively chasing it and is probably seeking a woman in a similar position to him where they are financial equals and parenting equals who do that progressive thing sharing working and parenting. Maybe he's living in the section of the professional world where men and women are equals and he doesn't want to be someone's breadwinner.

The only reason a man needs to push above £45k to be seen as attractive to a woman is if she is expecting to live of his salary. No other woman would be looking down on it.

I’m not sure what I thought but I’ve definitely had my eyes open to the fact that the sort of people I work with are not representative of the masses.
I would imagine this thread is a much better cross section of society than the circles you mix in OP. Mumsnet is quite a broad slice of society from very high earners down to low incomes or those who can't work for whatever reason or choose to be SAHP. For such a strong consensus, it gives some interesting food for thought.

Maybe this poor bloke doesn’t even want children! Has anyone thought of that?

I do understand where you're coming from, OP. For a lot of people, much of their self-worth is tied up with work, and they judge others accordingly.

Money really isn't everything though. My ex husband was a high earner. About 200k a year. However, he is so arrogant and rather awful.

Do people think that as soon as you are paid over 40k that’s it your life is over?! I’ve been on 3 holidays this year and worked beyond my hours maybe 5 times since January.

In my industry, yes. I regularly work 10-12 hours a day, including weekends. I report to the CEO and President. I still haven't taken half my annual leave. And I don't know many people - other than software engineers, for example - who earn an impressive salary and don't work long weekends.