Advice for managing PIL with new baby

[WishingILivedOnAnIsland]

My PIL are challenging people to get along with. When displeased they rant and scold, recite lists of hurtful personal comments on a loop, repeatedly threaten to cut DH out of their lives and have even thrown physical tantrums (dropping themselves on the floor sobbing). It can be over very small things and it is absolutely exhausting. They are easily offended and constantly feuding with someone or other. They have cut multiple family members permanently out of their lives.

We moved nearer to them when DC2 was born and found them overwhelming. They would show up multiple times a week uninvited and stay for hours while DH was at work. I had PNA for about 5 months after DC2 was born and unfortunately DH told them about it. They would repeatedly do things to our newborn (eg holding her up over their heads or kissing her when they were sick) that they’d been told triggered my anxiety. They since told DH that they’ve made a point of not following my requests in relation to DC because ‘if we had she would have just kept telling us what to do’ and anyway why should they listen to someone ‘mentally ill and irrational’.

I recovered completely from PNA a long time ago but they still constantly (as in, multiple times within a single conversation) refer to me as ‘mentally ill’ and ‘irrational’ and try to convince DH he shouldn’t allow me a say in decisions.

After trying for a long time to please them, I went LC about 1 year ago. My stepping back infuriated them and they have been compulsively criticising everything about me since. They actively hate me now. I cannot be in the room without at least one of them glaring/ pouting/ refusing to look at me when I speak-and sadly this behaviour is a best case scenario as we are always afraid of a massive scene. It’s really unpleasant and I am increasingly concerned about DC picking up on the dynamic as they get older.

I will give birth to DC3 soon. My counsellor said that PIL were a significant factor in worsening my PNA last time. My relationship with PIL has obviously soured since then so I expect they’ll be worse. They will likely demand a lot of bonding time with the new baby and DH will want to try to satisfy them in the hope of preventing theatrics. Basically I am dreading it and trying to think of how to protect myself emotionally during the newborn phase.

DH is a good man, a wonderful father and supportive to me in every other way. He is very intelligent but has a blind spot when it comes to his parents. He sometimes just goes along with what they say and want without considering if it’s reasonable. He tries hard to please them and is scared of their threats to cut him off. He respects my decision to be LC on some levels but also asks me to be ‘the bigger person’ by being relentlessly nice and accomodating to them no matter how they treat me.

I don’t want to be separated from my BF newborn so they can see her without me, which is what they will be expecting. However I am also worried about being pressured into contact with PIL while I am exhausted, hormonal and sensitive. I am concerned that I am at risk of another bout of PNA and I feel really stuck.

I want to sit DH down soon and agree on a plan for the newborn period ahead of time.

So my question (thanks if you made it this far!): what is reasonable in terms of PIL’s involvement here? What rules/limits/boundaries am I within my rights to ask for? Any tips or advice?

TLDR: PIL are hard work - tips / rules for managing them around new baby?

DC are 2.5 and 1.5

I don't know if they pay attention to the nasty comments but we had an incident last year where PIL berated us in their home for one hour straight. Yelling, sobbing, shaking their fingers in our faces, insults, dropping themselves on the floor. The works. DC definitely noticed that, and that's when I finally decided to go LC with them.

DC1 understands more and more what is being said and its definitely causing me concern and a sense of immediacy in having this resolved.

We have a new rule that when DH visits them with DC he will leave if they start carrying on. But I think he finds it hard in the moment to decide what constitutes behaviour worth leaving over. For example, their last visit they were fine except for making one short snide comment about me. DC (toddlers) were present but apparently not paying attention.

This rule needs to be scrapped because of his own FOG. If they cannot be civil around you as the children's mother then they should neither see them or you. He cannot protect his children from his parents and he is using them as a buffer.

As mentioned before the harm being done to your children is happening right in front of his very eyes; they were hearing every word even if they were not seemingly paying attention to what was being said. If your DH becomes even more flexible he will break like a twig; he is basically martyring himself to these people which is his choice but he cannot and must not take you all down with him. You are the only one who can protect your children because he cannot and actually won't step up.

Maybe for the first visit after your had baby they could ‘pop’ over after dinner about 6.30 for an hour- then kids go to bed, you and baby go upstairs for bed and leave them to it downstairs.
Then after that you can meet in the park for a bit, walking away with the pram when it’s too much.
Sounds like a right nightmare for you.

@GarthFunkel I was thinking on insisting on only letting them see DC3 in public with me present. I'm glad you think it's a reasonable request.

I also want DH to agree that they are not coming to the hospital, and to not tell them that the baby is born until I am home, rested and up to dealing with their nonsense.

If they know the baby has been born and that they have been excluded from the hospital then they will be on the phone to DH sobbing and wailing about how mistreated they are, and DH will be shattered and emotionally absent when I need him focused on the baby and I.

But DH thinks not telling them when the baby is born will infuriate them further and we'll just have more to deal with once they find out.

DH has thankfully told them a false due date which is two weeks later than my actual due date.

If he wants to see his parents he need to go on his own end of. They do not want to see their son here; they just want to use him to gain access to his children; your most precious of resources.

Your children are very young but as you have seen they are aware even at this age and they will pick up on tension, both spoken and unspoken.

This is not a situation where this will be resolved and everyone will end up happy here. The rulebook really does go out the window when it comes to dysfunctional toxic families. You are dealing with his parents, two people who both have untreated and untreatable personality disorders and their son who is profoundly mired in his own fear, obligation and guilt re them. I do have some sympathy for your H but he will lose you all if he carries on in the same vein as he is doing now.

They should certainly not be seeing any of your children within your home; if this is at all done then meet up in a public place because they are less likely to kick off then. It is also easier to walk away.

You likely come from a nice and importantly an emotionally healthy family but his family are not and they will not ever play by the "normal" rules governing familial relations.

OP how did your DH react that time you were at PIL’s and they were berating you and sobbing for an hour in front of DC?

These people are utterly batshit and YANBU!

They berated you for an hour. With their fingers in your faces? An hour? Why on earth didn't you just up and leave?! And again, how do you know there will be no inheritance? Has that been a stick to beat your DH with? No use being the bigger person if it tears your family apart. Your DC won't thank you for it.

Your DH is not a good man. You are in an abusive relationship with these people that he is forcing on you. He is no better than them.

I'd honestly have to decide what is better. Being with him and having them destroy you and your children or divorce him and live a life free of them. I'm

These people are abusers. How awful for you. You need to be aiming for NC for you and definitely NC for the children. Would you let your kids be around these people if they punched your kids in the face? No. Then why is this any different. They are mentally punching you, your DH and your kids in the face every time they explode. If it was me, I’d call everybody’s bluff and stand firm. You hold all the cards here. Say to your DH “I love you and we are a family. We are being abused by your parents and I will not allow it any longer. The children are no longer allowed contact with them until they complete a course of anger management and seek counselling” then stick to it. I recognise it will be hard for your DH but honestly, his parents cutting him off is his problem to deal with and would actually be the best thing for him! Do not engage with them at all. Have no further discussions with your DH about it other than “no”, “no they are not welcome until I have proof they have completed the anger management course”, “no that is not happening” be a broken record.
You have to do something or your children are going to grow up with mental health issues.

@cptartapp They told us no inheritance a long time ago and we don't mind. Money is not a factor.

I was in shock TBH. I regret not leaving immediately but I'd never encountered anything on that level before. I didn't know what was going on, I thought FIL was having a stroke or some kind of breakdown. DH kept trying to calm them down and reason with them but to no avail. Eventually I pulled the pin and said we were leaving and would only speak to them when they were calm. They have not calmed down since.

So he is aware that they don't really love him and he is hanging on in the hopes it isn't true.

How fucking awful.

I'd recommend Susan Forward's Toxic Parents and Toxic In-laws as a start. He does need counselling and I think his counsellor was singularly ill-equipped to deal with the situation. Perhaps relationship counselling would work better for you as you will bring up how much impact it is having on you as a couple and how he doesn't want to hurt you but actually he is.

On his previous effort at counselling it sounds like he just slipped into dreams over reality - 'If I massively lower my expectations maybe everyone can be happy' - Nope.

@AnnaMagnani I think they do love him in their own messed up way. They keep threatening to cut him off but don't do it.

@AnnaMagnani Relationship counselling is a good idea. I suppose I wanted to figure out what is fair for me to want before we discuss it though.

I want them gone. But I don't know if I have the right.

You have the right to not have anyone in your life that you don’t want there...

@MrsElijahMikaelson1

Do I have the right to cut off their relationship with my DC though?

They are DH's children as much as they are mine, I don't think I can unilaterally decide something that big. It would also spell the end of DH's relationship with his parents as they would never accept being cut off from their GC. That's a lot of pressure to put on our marriage- I'll have cost him his parents.

What would your DH do if they treated your DC in the same way, berating, yelling and sobbing for an hour? What happens when your DC are older and they say something lovely about you and the PILs start saying horrible things about you in response?

I had issues with MIL early on, but not on the same scale as you. She made it abundantly clear that she didn't like me and wished I wasn't around. My attitude was that until she accepted me as DH's wife and DC's mum then she wouldn't see DC. I wasn't having her slagging me off in front of DC. I wasn't asking her to be friends with me, just to accept the role I had in the family. Luckily things have improved over the years, I think her issue was more in accepting her DS was now a grown up and had his own life at a time when her own personal life wasn't too great, and I became the scapegoat. She even seemed to blame me for her divorce which happened about 10 years before I met DH!

You won't have cost him his parents, their behaviour would have done that.

They are DH's children as much as they are mine, I don't think I can unilaterally decide something that big

You can decide not to have your children around some one that undermines their parents 100%

Conditioning people is not huge statements it’s a tiny trickle of small comments that go unnoticed so when the parent does something awful the child/person who’s been conditioned doesn’t think it’s that bad and fails to see the importance.

So while you think they kids don’t notice they are hearing negative comments about ( unnoticed) and it will be entirely normal to hear nana and grandad slagging you off.

It will become entirely normal to see grandad shouting and pretending to have a stroke, it will be entirely normal to grandad and nanna shouting at mummy and daddy and mummy crying.

It will all be water off a ducks back.

I can’t work out if your husband is deluded or this token support he will offer you is just a way to get you to STFU

Either way the PILs still have control over you all and your dh facilities that

@ineedaholidaynow If I put those questions to him I think he would say that PIL treat me like that but they would never treat our children like that.

However, they've been involved in feuds and had various enemies all DH's life. His father refused to be in a room with his grandmother for instance, and convinced DH that his grandmother was a bad person. PIL each have siblings they've cut off, never to speak to again. So DH always knew this is how they are but he never ever believed that they would treat him or I like this. He was genuinely shocked when their rage turned to face us, he'd only ever seen it directed at other people.

So I know that no one is immune but DH might not be ready to believe it.

Conditioning people is not huge statements it’s a tiny trickle of small comments that go unnoticed so when the parent does something awful the child/person who’s been conditioned doesn’t think it’s that bad and fails to see the importance.*

That's so true.

Your DH is not wonderful. He allows his parents to be abusive and bully you and this is definitely not the behaviour of a supportive husband. You are deluded.

Your PIL do not have any legal rights to see your DC and you are not helping in letting them visit your PIL. They will get to an age, much sooner than you probably think, where they will notice the discrepancies between how you are treated by the PIL compared to others. What if they copy this behaviour, because that is what little ones do? They copy the behaviour of those they are in contact with.

I am surprised you would even have a further baby with this man who allows you to be treated like this. PIL referring to you as mentally ill several times in a conversation is bloody appalling behaviour!

I would leave my husband if he was so utterly unsupportive as yours. There wouldn't be a chance in hell of my PIL seeing my DC ever.

You need to stop your DC having any contact with your PIL asap. Your H needs to respect this and start being supportive. He needs to get counselling to help him get over the manipulation and abuse from your PIL.

What is your reason for not moving away from them? Is it not worth moving away and getting counselling for your H. You will never be happy while they are in your lives.

@WishingILivedOnAnIsland I'm afraid your DH needs to work out where his priorities lies. He needs to decide whether keeping the peace with his parents is more important than upsetting you and your mental health. It is really that simple. He knows the effect they have on you and how they treat you, there is no denying it, and he should be protecting you from that

He's wimping out. You need to make him stand up and make his choice. You absolutely have the right to ask him to do that

I am surprised you are having a third dc. Not sure I could sleep with a man who is allowing himself and his whole family to be subject to such outright abuse. I would have no respect for him at all. He is prioritising his dps over you and 3 dc.
I went nc with ils and dh followed. He stated his mh had never been so good, a huge weight had been lifted. 4 years now and I have seem such a change in my dh. For the better of course. He has grieved for the dps he wished he had but realised they were never the sort of people he should have around him. And he def didn't want them around our ds. Especially mil. She flounced /emailed her phone book a lying email about us. So what? We didn't care tbh. She just looked like a bloody loon!!