how should a nursery worker deal with a crying toddler?

[Moralitym1n1]

Sorry I know this is strictly not a relationships question, but the parenting etc. board is often very slow and with is often a shark frenzy.

I've just overheard a daycare worked shouting "stop that crying

I would question the safeguarding ratio for that many babies / toddlers to only one play-worker/ assistant.

My son used to go to a nursery, enjoyed it at first, then started getting very clingy and upset at drop off, coming out subdued and withdrawn at pick-up. He was only 3 but he could explain what was making him upset - a ‘play-worker’ being unkind, being told to shut up, being told he was stupid. The manager raised concerns that he had ‘issues’, both learning and hearing wouldn’t speak to her.

I withdrew him with immediate effect, and placed him in a different nursery for a couple of mornings a week. The transformation was amazing, smiling happy to go, chatting and laughing coming out. Excelling and exceeding all tasks given him. He one of the top in his class at school now despite being the youngest by 11 months.

A change is sometimes a good thing. Listen to what your child is saying to you - even if it isn’t verbal but emotionally

As above i suppose - can't be told no, just keeps on (sometimes with a look of real.devilment), protests very loudly if we don't be her what she wants instantly - but is this just normal at 20 months?

Yes, entirely normal. Babies need to be insistent: in a very primitive way they cannot wait to have their needs met as they might starve or get left behind. Toddlers gradually learn that it is safe to wait a little, but it's not always an easy lesson, and they are still vulnerable little things. At this age she is also beginning to explore what things happen the same way, and where thd boundaries lie.

@IsThisYourSanderling

About the shouting/telling off - not the combining age groups in one room thing?

I'm glad your complaint was upheld, fair play to ou. It can be intimidating going up against people whose profession it is, I'd feel like I'm immediately assumed to be "precious" about my child.

*Christ on a bike. Your posting is incredibly hard to read!

No. She shouldn’t have spoken her like that. And I wouldn’t have left tbh.*

My phone wasn't working so I'm trying to use my toddler's Amazon fire tablet; it's difficult and weird to write on.

I explained how I ended up leaving at the time (my husband pulled a fast one on me because he knows what I'm like). It was better that way though - my behaviour in situations like that is krakatowa-like.

@Epona1

Usually the ratio is much lower.

That's a very valid story to me, I wish my daughter was old enough to talk, but we're going to have to make a decision without that.

DDs nursery everyone goes to the main room for snack. The 'babies' up to 2yo are in highchairs though, so safe from hot food and other kids.

Snack and lunch, that should say ^^

Yeah I suppose it's to be expected for meals - she was also in a high chair until very recently, when they told me they were trying her at the table.

It's more the combining everyone into the same room at the end of the day that concerns me; I was thinking it could be quite overwhelming/intimidating and possibly stressful to have all the older kids around you at only one and a half or so .. plus kids can sometimes bully/be rough especially if they think the assistant I'd looking the other way.
When I collect her from that room, the assistants almost always have the kids her age (and younger obviously) on their hip; makes me think the circumstances make them clingy/wanting reassurance of protection. That's not so good.

*reassurance or protection

@Moralitym1n1

DD says at breakfast everyone has breakfast together tables set out about 20 has breakfast all different ages together.. for every 3 children there is 1 staff member.

In the baby room they have 2 people and currently no more than 5 babies. If they have a good day with staff they add a 3rd to the baby room.

It’s not possible to staff each room to maintain ratios unless everyone works opening and closing shifts
This could be 7 till 6 and wouldn’t be possible
So staff work shifts and children are regrouped to enable people to go home when their shift finishes

Thanks for your responses.

I'd imagined that was the main reason they were combining all ages into one room from 5pm or earlier.

I've asked for the behavioural policy and wad emailed a policy about aggression and challenging behaviour which doesn't mention crying/tantruming and what the staff's response is supposed to be.

Before I could read it and ask the manager of she has any other policy or if she could just tell me what they do when a baby/toddler cries of tantrums; the manager stopped me this morning while I was trying to leave to pay a taxi driver (she didn't realise) and told me that she was going to monitor/,record how often my daughter is crying and what causes it. She told me that she saw her in Wednesdayb- when the assistant (same one who shouted at her) wouldn't let her have the bubble wand and said it was only for her to blow bubbles - cry and keep crying for "5 MINUTES" (said with lots of emphasis) and she wanted to find out what it was that triggered it; being told no, not having something etc.

I was trying to leave and also wasn't prepared for the conversation, so I just said ok and left to catch my return transport. I then emailed her asking her the above 'what is your policy re. responding to crying and/or tantruming babies, I can't find it in this document" .. she hasn't replied as yet.

I think/am certain she guessed something was up when I requested the policy. I don't know what her angle is but find it truly weird that she is monitoring a 20 month old crying/tantruming; because I'm told it's v common behaviour - and shouldn't they just have a response worked out.

I distract or comfort or (when I've had enough) just say stop, no and try to distract. She responds well to distraction and comfort. Why was she crying fir 5 mins if she was being distracted of comforted, it wouldn't go on that long if I distract.

She's subdued and clingy being left off.

My husband was supposed to speak to the manager about this this evening but his car broke down and ge won't be back in time. (We agreed he would deal with it as I'm very likely to become very undiplomatic and angry).

Incidentally, I've looked at one if the two other daycare centres in the town and unfortunately I don't think I want to send her there. I'm due to look at the second on Mon.

I should add, they've never said she was aggressive, just cries.
And when she tantrums with me (apart from throwing the odd thing) she's not aggressive. Just lies down and screams.

Sorry I keep typo'ing 'of' instead of 'or' on this phone.

I think you're handling this very well. If you know you can blow a fuse you're right to get DH to discuss it, but do need to make sure you're on the same page.

I had a cryer. From about ten months to halfway through year one I could probably name four or five days she didn't cry when I dropped her off at nursery/pre school/school/grandparents. There isn't a person who hasn't dealt with it through distraction. I would have been appalled if I'd heard someone shouting at her. It's separation anxiety and hostile behaviour from someone then left caring for them is only going to embed that further, that being separated from you is traumatic. It's a perfectly normal response for a young child. I'm a firm believer that no one should be shouted at at work or home (don't get me wrong, I do shout, I'm not perfect but I try to acknowledge it and apologise after) so why should it be any different for a child? Learned behaviour is a thing. And nursery assistants should know all this. It's poor form. I would say if you are considering moving nurseries when you explore others you specifically ask how they deal with this issue. I moved my cryer from one to another (for other reasons) and did this, it gave me much reassurance that the issue that was bothering me was going to be dealt with in a way I felt comfortable. Good luck.

@Needsomebottle

Thanks.

I spoke to the early years people for my area as well yesterday (more to query staff to child ratios in mixed age groups than about the shouting/telling off) but untouched on the subject and the lady's view (I think she's a social worker) was exactly the same as yours; raised voice/shouting not appropriate at all.

She actually doesn't cry when left off, she used to be ok - now she's subdued and clingy.

She's crying/tantruming during the day. (she's very active, very wilful - though I believe that's pretty common for her age - and tends to tantrum if she wants to do something and is stopped. Then she cries, lies on the floor etc ).

*touched on

What toddler doesn't tantrum at some stage when something they want to do is stopped or something taken away?! Irrespective of the reasons. They don't understand that it's lunchtime, time to go outside etc, they don't think beyond their own needs. It's self awareness (or lack of) and basic child development which they should know and their role is to guide them through. It may be that one day was a bad day for that staff member but one bad day can do damage. I think I'd start the conversation by asking the manager "if X happened (outline the circumstances) what are your expectations of how a staff member would deal with it?" And hear them out before you explain what you saw. I doubt very much they'd say "I'd expect my staff member to shout" - see how ludicrous that sounds?!! And then they'd have put themselves in a position where they can't defend the behaviour.

Yes; that's why I find her 'monitoring' my toddler yesterday weird, and unnecessary.

I sent her this by email (because I wanted to have things in writing) yesterday after she stopped me on the way out and said she'd be monitoring why my daughter was crying, what set her off etc. and have had no reply.

(She's usually quite prompt at replying and had no compunction in responding outside working hours);

"Thank you for sending this.

Are there any other behavioural policies? I'm not sure that this is exactly what I'm looking for; what I'm trying to clarify is your policy for dealing with a crying and/or tantruming child (well baby I suppose, since she's under 2 and in the baby room)".

Your suggestion for approaching it is excellent but if I put her in the position of admitting her supervisor acted inappropriately,I have to wonder what the atmosphere is going to be like in future, and what the supervisor's attitude will be towards my daughter. I feel like it'll just end in me having to move her .. in which case why even bother with this crap (they're not going to think they're wrong, they're just going to say "oh nightmare child, good riddance, she was only in for 2 days anyway".

The early years team person said I could make a complaint about the shouting, the ratio that morning, and the fact they're combining age groups for longer than they should (apparently it's only allowed for first and last half hour of the day) but I felt that would be the nuclear option (!)

I dont think what you heard the nursery worker do was right and I wouldnt be happy about it. If I were you I'd go and speak to the manager and tell her what you heard and ask for an explanation. My next move would be determined by what they did next. If they took your concerns seriously and investigated and gave the worker training or moved her to a different age group so she wasn't working with your daughter then I'd be happy and keep her there as you otherwise like it and the other staff.

I think you learn a lot about the type of place it is by what happens when you complain. If they take things on board and are keen to keep you happy then great. If they are defensive then I'd be moving your daughter if possible.

Id also want to ask about ratios. So I'd be asking what staff were there that morning as when you dropped off and returned with the nappies there was one member of staff to 6 children still. This bit is quite serious as they really shouldn't be over ratio for a long time - fair enough if a member of staff left the room to change a nappy or clear away breakfast things but otherwise they should be in ratio. If they don't have a good explanation for this I'd remove your child and maybe complain to Ofsted as well.

I'm not sure where the information on combining ages came from, but that's not right
There is nothing in the statutory framework that says ages can't be combined, it's actually seen as beneficial in some settings and they combine ages throughout the whole day
I'm not sure when the manager is going to monitor your child, it seems to me that it's the staff that need monitoring
A good practitioner would never shout at a child for crying, they need a cuddle not a cross word

@insancerre

When I spoke to a member of the early years team yesterday (this is in NI) and asked what the ratio was for combined age groups (it's the one for the lowest aged child), I said " after 5pm or so" and she responded "after 5?! No, they're given leeway to combine classes/groups for the first half hour and last half hour of their opening hours".

(They're 7.45am to 6pm). They seem to combine the groups in one room from about 5.
They work

@MotherlandGasp

Very true. Call me pessimistic but I just always assume people will be defensive (or go on the attack). I feel like she's already trying to make out my daughter's behaviour is more tantrum-y/worse than average with the approach yesterday.

On the ratio thing - I can't prove the worker wad still there on her own when I returned with the nappies - because she pointedly told me to leave them in the dining room, down the corridor. I can only presume she was since I heard noone else, just her shouting "child's name, stop that crying now, child's name - stop that nonsense" which seems unlikely if another assistant was there; since they'd probably have dealt with her. But I didn't see it, and can't say for certain noone else was in the room.

The ratio in the combined group at the end of the day .. I think they're under at times, but haven't really paid attention.