LEAVING sulking H

[jamaisjedors]

I can't believe this is my third thread.

I first posted in December about my H's sulking and silent treatment - I was ready to leave then but then got persuaded to give it another go.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

My second thread is where everyone helped me work through what was going on, helped IRL by individual and joint counselling.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3498886-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking-part2?msgid=85957683

We have now made a joint decision to separate, and I have found somewhere to live.

I don't regret not leaving in January because I have had time to process a lot of things, confide in friends, and come to understand a lot of things about myself and H.

However, sometimes I think it would have been a lot easier to power my way out of the door whilst still fuelled with a lot of anger.

Right now I am mostly very very sad.

Today seemed like a reasonably good day, H and I managed to discuss childcare arrangements up til the school holidays quite calmly and sensibly.

We each spent time doing fun things with the DC and H is actually encouraging them to get a little excited about the new house and buying new furniture etc.

But I have just been hit by a massive wave of sadness again after overhearing part of a conversation between DC1 and a friend. DC1 was saying that he had no idea at all this was coming and had never seen us argue or fight.

I was sure they were at least aware of the horrible atmosphere, particularly over the last few months so it's a bit of slap in the face to realise they had no idea at all and this must seem totally incomprehensible to them.

Not in the UK. it is unlikely you will get a written appointment card, & rarely an email/text confirmation, particularly at this is in the near future.
normally it's just a phone call to the secretary & it ends there. but yes, I'd be surprised the doctor would be available on the w/e.
it could all be H conjuring/plotting.
I think I would say that he needs contact to be with a 3rd party, & on the last 2 occasions this has fallen through, due to H/Doc changing the date & the 'friends' leaving the DC alone. You have had no feedback from the professionals, no guarantee that his paranoia & anger will not cause another meltdown & as you are fully aware of how manipulative & abusive is, you will not allow him to dictate the contact, whilst he is still UNFIT & hospitalised.
It is up to him to get onboard with his pathology, accept he needs therapy & it will be a long road to recovery, infact he will have to unravel his whole mindset. & be thankful that there is one stable fit person to take the load, as opposed to agression & reprimands.

Definitely ring the hospital and speak to the psychiatrist/secretary to confirm that the appointment is arranged as you think. I have 3 family members that work in MH in another EU country and I have never heard of a psychiatrist booking a routine appointment on a Saturday - usually the wards and clinics only have on-call, emergency cover at weekends.

Do you have a witness or it in writing that H has said the meeting is Saturday. Reason being that is your proof that he is lying. If it's all been arranged verbally it's your word against his.

I don't have proof in writing about the meeting but don't think that H is making it up, it's not in his interest.

I have already said I am going with a third party following his extremely agressive attitude towards me on Saturday.

He followed up by saying that the psychiatrist has agreed to this but the person can't come in. I knew that but if it makes him feel in control, fine.

I'm currently mulling over what information to send to the psychiatrist in advance (am wondering whether it is worth it or better to see how the meeting goes and send it afterwards based on what he says to me - but then if he diagnoses "stress" he is unlikely to want to lose face and change his diagnosis based on the say so of the ex-wife).

I'm coming up with a long list of questions and going to mark them in order of importance. I think I will start by asking how long the appointment is scheduled for so I can re-adjust my questions and not suddenly be ejected after a couple of them.

I'm also planning to not address H more than "hello" and just talk directly to the psychiatrist, after all, I can meet with H anytime I like.

Unless you think there are any specific questions I should ask H in front of the psychiatrist?

For example for the tape over DC2's phone, I would say :

"The DC has unsupervised contact with H last week and afterwards DC2 came home with tape over his phone and said "daddy says we are being spied on". I feel this is a sign that the paranoia is still present and that H is not sufficiently aware of this and not able to adapt his behaviour when he is left alone with his children. What is your opinion about this? Can you guarantee that the DC will not be exposed in any other way to his paranoia on future unsupervised visits?"

Or :

"I have explained specifically in an email to H that I was advised to move out of the family home with the children because he presented a serious threat to me and advised not to communicate my address for the time being while he is still under psychiatric observation. On the last 2 unsupervised visits H has repeatedly questioned the DC about our address, on the last time to the extent that they were scared and DC2 left the room. Do you consider this to be normal behaviour for the DC to be exposed to?"

re : medication and relapses

"Even though we are currently separating, we are linked for life through the children. As a co-parent, I would like to know (considering his mental illness) :

• what I can do/his family and friends can do to help contribute towards H's recovery and healthy interactions between us ?

• What medication he is currently taking, will he be taking it for life, what are the possible side-effects and what will happen if he decides he is cured and stops taking the medication (a month ago he threw out some other medication he was on because he thought he was cured).

• What plan is there in place to help ease H's recovery and transition back to work and to normal life after 6 weeks (or more?) in a psychiatric unit?

• Can you guarantee that the return to work in September to a highly stressful job plus the care of the DC, plus charity work, plus house/garden/shopping will not trigger another psychotic episode which the DC could be exposed to?

• Can you guarantee that the children will not be further exposed to his religious fanatism which they were in the days leading up to his psychotic episode/breakdown?

I don’t post much but have been following your threads since the start jamais.

I get why you’re starting a number of questions with “can you guarantee” but I wonder if that’s the right approach? I fear it might make the psych sidestep the question because obviously they’re not going to guarantee it at this stage, which is what you want them to say (?) but equally they won’t want to say “I can’t guarantee that” and leave it at that, because really no one can ever guarantee someone else’s behaviour. So you’re risking getting into a politics like battle of skirting around questions rather than actually getting answers.

Short of “I can’t guarantee that”, what would be your ideal response from the psychiatrist? I’m wondering if there’s an alternative wording that can help you get whatever the desired response might be.

I agree that ‘can you guarantee’ phrasing will get you nowhere and bog you down in professional prevarication. I’m not sure... does this seem like reasonable behaviour for children to be exposed to?

Would it help to phrase it slightly differently as 'the concerns I would like to raise' and then bullet point with as little emotion as possible iykwim, and focusing purely on the welfare of the children.

Perhaps ‘as a mother I need to have a high level of confidence that my children will be cared for. What can you suggest are behaviours h needs to be regularly showing to provide reason to believe this to be the case? Detail phone taping. Wpuld this be outside the behaviour range you describe?

A psychiatrist is not going to guarantee any kind of behaviour...
How about “Is it your professional opinion that my children’s safety can be ensured while under the care of H, unsupervised- even in times of stress?”
Etc

Hmm, yes I see what you mean about the "can you guarantee..."?

In fact it's true that it is not my objective for the DC NOT to see their dad, I would like them to have a proper relationship with him and ultimately share custody if it's safe (it's what the DC want for the moment).

Maybe I need to focus more on outlining my plans for the transition period and get the psych to agree that this is a good plan for H and in his and the DC's interest and get some kind of info about the long-term management of his condition?

I’d be more inclined to ask psychiatrist above question, and then maybe discuss with psych about phone taping, let him know that his interrogation of your kids re your address was also aggressive, that he was aggressive towards you, etc. remind psychiatrist that you are divorcing H and will not be involved in his care or rehabilitation. That you don’t wish to continue to dialogue with H other than regarding children’s care, and contact because you are frightened of him and will not be returning to the family home - ever. Wind up H a bit in the process, see what happens.

I am thinking I should point out that although he has been lucky so far to have 2 friends visiting a lot, they will not be around in the summer.

Also that his family have not come to visit at all, despite me alerting them 3 days after his admission to hospital so it will be difficult to count on their support (800km away).

The only one who has offered to come is his sister, but she knows he thinks she is plotting with me and so doesn't think she would be welcome.

I'd focus on the issues regarding the safety and well being of the DC in the here and now.

No guarantees can be given, and anyway how he copes or doesn't isn't your resposibility. Any future issues can be dealt with as and when. Plus your H will interpret this as an opportunity to continue control.

Finally, your DC may want shared custody. But a controlling and abusive man is not a good parent, regardless of his health issues. I know they love him but that doesn't mean he is giving them what they need.

So maybe something more like “I’m thinking about how to manage the transition from H seeing the DC supervised, to having unsupervised contact and hopefully eventually shared custody”
So that emphasises that you aren’t trying to prevent the relationship, you’re trying to move forward and encourage contact.

And you could follow that with saying that you can’t really do that unless you have some information about DH’s prognosis, medication, potential relapse, etc.

And then the “conditions” on that, which boil down to the DC being physically and emotionally safe while in H’s care, can perhaps be worked out between you & the psychiatrist.

The obvious jump-in for H in this scenario would be “of course they’re safe with me, I would never harm them” so maybe make sure you’re prepared with a calm response to that.

In advance maybe you could send a very factual recap of recent events that have happened during contact visits? This is relevant information that the psychiatrist needs and may not have from H. If he doesn’t know about H’s aggression towards you/ phone taping / insistence on trying to get your address then you’ll have to spend part of the session explaining that (or you’ll be wondering whether he knows). I would go for sending a brief “these are the events since date x that have led to me asking for this meeting, as I need to know what level of contact with the DC is appropriate for H now and going forward”

It must feel like prepping for some kind of hellish job interview

It must feel like prepping for some kind of hellish job interview
It absolutely does. And I'm having nightmares about it of course.

Some good advice though, I like the above angle, I want appear sympathetic and concerned rather than aggressive and revenge seeking or "hysterical".

I think you should keep it short, you will never get through all the points in depth, he will usher you out in 20 minutes. So try & outline your reason for being there before any waffle:

Good Morning Doctor. .The point of the meeting is to have info & reassurances to safeguard our DC"

I would add that at some point that you do not envisage that H will ever become a person other than he was before. dominating, entitled, aggressive, bullying, controlling, abusive (therefore defining H) ". But you now see evidence of this behaviour being delivered to the children. (phone, address,) & does the Doctor think it is healthy & safe?
The marriage has definitively broken down, the only subject of discussion is the wellbeing of the children & to this end, he is still showing signs of aggression, bullying & paranoia. the school is involved & there will be an independent brief.
What can the doctor advise? (stroke his/her ego, he/she is French) in terms of unsupervised contact, (which he has managed to manipulate on the last 2 occasions.
Is he apt to make real-life decisions & hold responsibilities (second effects of meds, can he drive ?)
Once he is released he will be on his own. no one will be ensuring he hasn't stopped treatment as he has done before.

Why he is ill, why he broke down, who's to blame is irrelevant, (H will try & justify himself by accusing you)

I'm just pondering phrases... as pp said, no on can guarantee another person's behaviour. So if focus on factual statements and asking for the psychiatrists risk assessment (opinion by another name).

Remember this is a fact finding mission. The psychiatrist doesn't get to make decisions about your life or your children. He's not a neutral player in this process.

I'm here to work out the safest way for DC to transition from current supervised visitation to shared custody.

Please can you tell me your diagnosis of H condition so I can understand if this is an ongoing disorder than will impact DC long term.

I'd like to understand the risks of relapse and hear suggestions on how to mitigate those risks, most particularly H return to his stressful job in September.

H is still displaying behaviours that are impacting the DC - taping phone, pressing for address. What is the risk to my DC that these behaviours will escalate? Physical and psychological.

H is still displaying aggressive behaviour to me (pick up argument for address). I was advised to leave family home in a rush due to risk to my safety. After x weeks of treatment, in your opinion how high is that risk now?

I think it is highly unlikely that he will give you any information at all. I suspect he will be wanting information from you, ie... dynamics, etc.

Just turning this over in my head some more and reading what PP’s have said.. jamais are you planning to say anything generally about who is making the decisions about the DC’s safety with H?

(Of course the obvious-to-everyone-but-H answer is that it shouldn’t be him because it’s clear that he isn’t the best judge of his own behaviour.)

There are various specific scenarios that you & others have outlined putting to the psychiatrist as “what if H goes off his meds, what if he appears paranoid” etc, but I’m wondering if these are maybe focusing on specifics that have already happened, rather than any future unknown behaviour from H which might actually be different to so far.

Is one of your goals of this meeting to reach some sort of agreement with H or get some kind of authority from the psychiatrist that you should be making decisions as necessary going forward on how he sees the DC? Or are you thinking that you want the fact finding to be the main focus so that you are fully informed rather than jumping ahead?

it is not my objective for the DC NOT to see their dad, I would like them to have a proper relationship with him and ultimately share custody if it's safe (it's what the DC want for the moment)

I think I would start with this and go on to say, however, I am concerned that he is not currently fit to care for them adequately. These concerns centre around...

1. A short while ago, he stopped taking prescribed medication because he decided he didn't need them. Is his current condition being managed by medication? What will happen if he unilaterally decides to stop his current medication?
2. He is displaying paranoid behaviour around the children (tape on phone)
3. He is bullying / aggressive towards the children - trying to get their new address out of them - and me.

etc.

I honestly believe you should not allow any more in person contact with him until assessments have been carried out due to:

His refusal to allow supervised contact
Aggressiveness towards to the DC
Paranoid behaviour demonstrated to the DC

If you continue to allow it you are actually saying his behaviour is ok and he is fine to have the DC. You could encourage increased phone/FaceTime as that is safer?

If you continue to allow it you are actually saying his behaviour is ok

I thought this myself which is why I insisited on him not driving the DC last weekend even though I'm fairly sure he's ok to drive (he's paranoid, remember!!!).

This is also why I chose Saturday rather than Sunday to meet the DR.

That way the DC can possibly see their dad in the afternoon on Saturday or on Sunday if he is allowed and if the Dr is reassuring.

As I said, I feel ok about short daytime visits but not ready for overnights alone or longer periods without some feedback about what to expect and some acknowledgement from H that he has been/is sick and needs to take things slowly.

Is one of your goals of this meeting to reach some sort of agreement with H or get some kind of authority from the psychiatrist that you should be making decisions as necessary going forward on how he sees the DC? Or are you thinking that you want the fact finding to be the main focus so that you are fully informed rather than jumping ahead?

This is a very good question and I am thinking it over right now.

Obviously while H is in hospital I have authority and get to decide which is what I need to establish.

So now I need to think about whether I am just fact-finding for my own benefit (and the DCs of course) or whether this meeting is to establish arrangements.

My lawyer will be requesting an independant psychiatric report on H anyway, to provide to the judge who will be deciding on custody down the line.

Do you think you will be allowed to record the meeting? That way the info can be used as evidence if you try to reduce the kids contact?

If you ask to record it, I think that might tip ex over the edge.