LEAVING sulking H

[jamaisjedors]

I can't believe this is my third thread.

I first posted in December about my H's sulking and silent treatment - I was ready to leave then but then got persuaded to give it another go.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

My second thread is where everyone helped me work through what was going on, helped IRL by individual and joint counselling.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3498886-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking-part2?msgid=85957683

We have now made a joint decision to separate, and I have found somewhere to live.

I don't regret not leaving in January because I have had time to process a lot of things, confide in friends, and come to understand a lot of things about myself and H.

However, sometimes I think it would have been a lot easier to power my way out of the door whilst still fuelled with a lot of anger.

Right now I am mostly very very sad.

Today seemed like a reasonably good day, H and I managed to discuss childcare arrangements up til the school holidays quite calmly and sensibly.

We each spent time doing fun things with the DC and H is actually encouraging them to get a little excited about the new house and buying new furniture etc.

But I have just been hit by a massive wave of sadness again after overhearing part of a conversation between DC1 and a friend. DC1 was saying that he had no idea at all this was coming and had never seen us argue or fight.

I was sure they were at least aware of the horrible atmosphere, particularly over the last few months so it's a bit of slap in the face to realise they had no idea at all and this must seem totally incomprehensible to them.

Have you spoken to WA? It may be worth doing so. And look at the Freedom Programme.

Although you are trying very hard, the abusive dynamic is continuing eith his demands of you and the DC. And he is using his illness as a method of keeping you all involved. And using his friends and family ( albeit unknowingly for them).

He is a controlling, abusive man. Concentrate on that, and as far as you disentangle yourself from.the health issues
I get that you have concerns re the DC but believe me that is how they keep us involved. Is why I am suggesting WA.

I hope you are not feeling bombarded by all of this Jamais. We are all saying the same sorts of things because we can see how he is still manipulating you and the children.

It's very clear what you need to do but I expect being in the middle of it is all very confusing. It's ok to feel overwhelmed and unsure. It's also ok to change your mind about anything that you've already agreed to. This is going to be a long process with lots of adjustments along the way.

Keep posting for support, to mull over your thoughts and to get suggestions from us. We are all here to help you, with whatever you need. You need to look after yourself. More than anything, that has to be a priority now so I hope you are finding time to ground yourself with some yoga or with friends or whatever you find calming.

Everything you post is about keeping the dc safe and yet you still let him have them unsupervised. Why?

I saw this last night and wanted to reply. I will address the other questions too because you are all absolutely right about the abusive dynamic and the manipulation.

To be clear, I am worried about the children's safety if H insists on seeing them overnight and or for longer periods without anyone around, and in particular I am worried about his return to work in September and whether the stress of that (or anything else) will set him off again.

So I would like "temporary" (we'll see how long they are needed) measures taking into account his mental health, and not what he seems to be insisting on through his lawyer, ie 50/50 care and half the holidays as soon as he's out of the clinic. My worry is the period immediately after he gets out and further down the line if he stops taking his treatment.

I am not worried about their physical safety when they see their dad for a few hours in a house they grew up in and with neighbours nearby and a mobile phone at hand. They WANT to see him and are happy to have seen him and it is more reassuring to them than to be imagining him locked up in some psychiatric clinic like in a movie.

I don't like the questioning about our address and the black tape on the phone but the DC seem to have handled it well and they also need to see that dad is not right yet to understand why I am against overnight and longer visits.

To be honest, they are old enough to be consulted by the judge when custody goes to court, and if they have spent no time with H, they will be in no position to make an informed decision about what they want to do.

I realise this sounds harsh, exposing them to H, but I have set up a psychologist's appointment for them next week to get started with care for them and for the moment they are still choosing to see H and speak to him.

When he chats to them on the phone he is totally normal and I think he is probably (outwardly) functioning pretty well.

He provided them with a nutritious lunch, they all had a rest and then played a bit of football.

Legally, I have been warned over and over again that he is entitled to see the kids and if there is any suspicion of me deliberately sabotaging their relationship this could cause difficulties down the line.

In particular, me leaving the family home with the DC could be construed as "kidnapping" - I also have all their ID documents with me.

I am also stepping carefully to keep the support of friends and family who think it is vital for H to see the kids and vice-versa and keep warning me not to "take his kids away" (including my own friends).

It’s clear you are between a rock and a hard place Jamais and in my opinion you are navigating it very well. I’m sure you’ll keep remembering what’s important. You have your head screwed on. I think I would be like you, acting reasonably until I had a reason not to. If you have to do a pick up alone again, perhaps it makes sense to take one of your friends who say you shouldn’t take his children from him.

Sounds as though he makes more effort to behave in front of others, so maybe a new tactic for you, remember to never be alone with him even for just a handover.

With regard to the abusive dynamic and H calling the shots, you are absolutely right.

It made me realise just how much work I still have to do to get out of that mindset.

When H initially emailed to say his "day release" was going to be Saturday, and not Sunday as previously agreed, my immediate reaction was, "argh I'm going to have to cancel my plans".

I made myself pause before replying and talked it over with a few people.

The problem was, the plans I had were really for me, and not for the DC, even though they were going to join me for some of the day.

Our mutual friend advised me not to "dance to his tune" but that if I could change things so that the DC could see their dad, it would be good for them all and I would look selfish if I seemed to be deliberately obstructing them seeing their dad if I could possibly rearrange things.

The other sticky part was that the reason I had to rearrange was because I would need to drop off the DC.

H offered to pick them up from my house (which he still doesn't know the address to) and drive them to our old house.

As I have said I don't want him driving the DC without information about what medication he is taking, this couldn't happen.

Our friend said I could drop the DC off at his early in the morning but the DC have been up at 6.30 all week and wanted a lie-in (plus DC1 is still sick).

So we reached a compromise. I said that I was prepared to facilitate contact by dropping off the DC on Saturday but that it would not be possible at 10.30 (what H wanted) but only 1pm- 4.30pm.

So I kept some of my plans (yoga) but skipped the end of year lunch to drop the DC off because they said they wanted to have lunch with H, not come to the yoga lunch (understandable).

By all means call me out on this, but the situation is rarely clear-cut and I have to take into account what the DC want - choosing to force them to go to an event they weren't bothered about over seeing their dad was not really doable.

But please DO call me out, because as you can see, old habits die hard and I am certainly not up to Alicia Florrick standard yet in affirming my boundaries.

I did say to H before I left (when picking up the DC) that in future he should stick to the pre-arranged contact days and warn us in advance. He looked at me pityingly and said "darling , the psychiatrist decides when I can be released".

This is not what my friend says, he says H probably got the fear because of the planned barbecue, despite it only being 5 people, and all people who have visited him at the clinic. I agree, which shows he is in no way well yet.

Since then, I have held off (it took considerable restraint I can tell you so lucky I went to yoga) from emailing H about his attitude on pick-up.

I have confirmed by email that I will meet his psychiatrist next Saturday but that I will be accompanied by a third party because of his extremely agressive attitude to me (in front of the children) yesterday (copied in to the 2 friends who regularly visit).

I have also emailed H's family (including all his emails to me) about the summer holidays and the plan I have outlined about gradually building up contact.

I have specifically asked one of them to come and stay for at least part of the time when H might have the children in August and said I can be flexible on dates.

I have confirmed by email that I will meet his psychiatrist next Saturday but that I will be accompanied by a third party because of his extremely agressive attitude to me (in front of the children) yesterday (copied in to the 2 friends who regularly visit).

just out of curiosity OP, how might He react, if the kids defended you and your choices, during contact ?

is He stable enough to accept that the kids won't always agree with His opinions given the years of your not being allowed one ?

is his aggression always directed at you ? What if you're not there, where does He direct his frustrations ?

I think it's admirable that you are ensuring He has contact with the kids, but I would err on the side of caution too OP.

I would drop the psychiatrist a quick email saying you are sure he had excellent reasons for changing DH's permitted day out but would he please try to give you more warning in future as it was confusing for the children to have their weekend plans changed at short notice because daddy's psychiatrist wouldn't let him leave the hospital.

I rather expect you will have to send the psychiatrist lots of quick emails asking him to please be careful about X or Y advice he gave DH as it has been very confusing for the children.

Unfortunately I have no email address for the psychiatrist, I confirmed to H.

I've looked online but can't find one and I doubt he will give it out.

I could try his office and explain that I have an appointment with him on Saturday and need to send him some information.

Handwritten letter if you have to, sent to the office for his attention.

Hadn't thought of that, of course I can write him a letter and deliver it to the clinic .

Explaining H's past paranoid behaviour and recent behaviour with the dc?

@BumbleBeee69 actually when H questioned the dc about our address again, dc1 (nearly 15 and very mature) said to him " mum doesn't want you to know so I'm not telling you".

He didn't report any agressivity but I'm not sure if he would tell me, I'll see if it comes up again.

I'd send two. A long one giving the history, saying it is to give the psychiatrist a full picture so he can better help DH. Say you don't expect a response, other than acknowledgement of receipt.

I would send another specifically asking for more notice of it when they refuse to let him leave as planned because of the impact on the children. Mention that his aggression in front of the children on the day he was allowed out makes you wonder if there was something they should have forewarned you about. Ask them to respond with suggestions / recommendations on how it could be handled better in future, in the best interests of the children.

There is little chance that it was the drs that moved the day and even less chance they know he got aggressive. However, all the information you have been given (all via DH) tells you they moved the day and you found him to be in aggressive mood. It will set them worrying about the appearance of negligence and hopefully clamping down on DH's shit.

Thanks, will block off some time on Tuesday to write the long one and make some notes as things occur to me.

I can do the short one more quickly, perhaps as an official confirmation that I will be there on Saturday at x time and mentioning that visitation was problematic this week with the last minute change plus the aggressive behaviour in front of the dc.

If you choose to write a paper letter DO NOT write your home address on it as it will become part of his file and possible accessible to your H

💐 full of admiration for you Jamais

Nobody except a Judge can force you into giving him access to the Children OP. If you have any doubts at any time regards his mental stability, like His coercive behaviour in demanding your new address, displaying aggressive behaviours, then stop contact. Your children are your priority not Him. Don't rely on Him telling the psychiatrists the truth about any of your relationship, His behaviour, His actions, His emotions.

Trust your gut OP, get clarification from his Team that it is safe for Him to see the kids as frequently as He says.

If need be, get your Lawyer onto his Medical Team, or His Lawyer to speak to them on behalf of your Lawyer. You've had to be removed from the Family home for your own safety to Him having unlimited access to His kids within weeks. I think you need clarification OP.

I think you're doing amazing given the circumstances

Could be worth covertly recording hand overs just in case.

Must check recording on my phone.

If H finds out that will certainly feed his paranoia

I am clear that this consultation with his psychiatrist is just to get additional info as his (still) wife and co parent.

I might even say that at the start or the end of the interview so that I am not accused of moving the goalposts where contact with the dc is concerned.

So start by explaining I front of H why I am there. If i really want him yo kick iff i coykd drop into conversation that the dc have been seeing the school social worker who is very concerned about access and whi will be wrotibg up her own report based on her interviews with the dc.

My lawyer will be requesting a full neutral outside psychiatric review (and his lawyer knows that).

Triggering him in the session would be good. You need them to see what he is like. If you wave the red rags at him and he behaves like a normal human instead then that's rather good too. Win-win.

He will of course be looking to set you off in front of them. He'll push all your buttons and you are conditioned to respond. Have a plan for how you'll manage yourself.

i could drop into conversation that the dc have been seeing the school social worker who is very concerned about access and who will be writing up her own report based on her interviews with the dc

My lawyer will be requesting a full neutral outside psychiatric review (and his lawyer knows that)

this is good

You need to make very clear that the meeting is all about post separation access for the children. Do not let either the psych or your H try and draw you back into a rerun of your marriage counselling. You need to be ready with some phrases to "grey rock" these issues.

I think that you need to be prepared to throw so,e trigger issues and see what happens while he is still admitted to the clinic. Say you need to discuss things that are upsetting you and the boys

• his aggressive behaviour at handovers
• aggressive questioning of the children trying to get info out of them
• phone taping to avoid being spied on
• say directly to the psych that you are concerned about the last minute change to the contact days as it is disruptive to you and the kids - if the psych says it was H you can say "oh sorry H assured me that you had changed the day" and look confused and let his lies become obvious.
• do not get drawn into any personal discussion that doesn't involve the kids and access

I'm sorry that this is so hard - however remember that the standard "access rules" relate to ordinary marital separation and not a situation where one parent is a psych clinic inpatient

Firstly, if this meeting takes place, I think it is highly unlikely (completely impossible to believe) that the psychiatrist will agree to let you record the meeting on your phone. Even less likely that your H will.
BUT.....
I don’t believe that there is a genuine meeting arranged at all.
You should have had a letter or phone call to confirm this from the hospital or the psychiatrist.
I also have doubts about a psychiatrist arranging meetings for a Saturday, tbh...

I have a feeling that you could find yourself at the hospital to be told by H that psychiatrist has cancelled or had a medical emergency come up, but since you are already here, be hit with a surprise list of topics designed to manipulate and inflame you.

Perhaps email (and call) the hospital (psychiatrist’s place of employment) requesting confirmation via email that the meeting arranged to discuss the children’s safety while in the unsupervised care of H, is in fact, genuine - as appointments arranged between you and H have been changed (twice now?) at the last minute citing psychiatrist orders, which has left you and the children inconvenienced, controlled and being subject to manipulation and abuse again.
Without confirmation via email from the psychiatrist or the hospital, you can assume that this meeting is in fact, fictitious and you will not be wasting your time.

I agree. I can not imagine that a professional would let their mentally ill patient.... who is an in-patient..... organise a meeting without them having contact with yourself.

Phone the Dr's Secretary and say you have misplaced the letter with the appointment details and could she confirm them. There should be a copy of all correspondence in his meducal notes.

Also, re-reading your posts.... he said HE has agreed to you meeting his dr. At no point has the Dr actually said to you that he will meet you.

The dr might not actually want your input.

You also need to be aware that he will probably make up some big lie to get you going, something about your marriage or behaviour or past mental health issues
It would be handy to be prepared for this and not get drawn into defending yourself
a statement such as 'we obviously have very different ideas/memories about that, but I am here to only discuss child arrangements post seperation'

I agree about phoning the clinic and double checking that the psychiatrist IS expecting you - it must surely be written into his booking diary. I would also stress that you wont be going until you have confirmation, please dont turn up unless you hear from them or have this confirmation. This should also give you some communication access to write/ forward an email. I would ask the receptionist for the psychs email as there is information pertinent to the meeting that you need to provide, if the meeting is going to be productive - you dont want to waste their time giving background when you are there to talk about things moving forward.
Id def mention the school counselling, etc in any email. That outside agencies are concerned adds weight to your concerns