LEAVING sulking H

[jamaisjedors]

I can't believe this is my third thread.

I first posted in December about my H's sulking and silent treatment - I was ready to leave then but then got persuaded to give it another go.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

My second thread is where everyone helped me work through what was going on, helped IRL by individual and joint counselling.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3498886-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking-part2?msgid=85957683

We have now made a joint decision to separate, and I have found somewhere to live.

I don't regret not leaving in January because I have had time to process a lot of things, confide in friends, and come to understand a lot of things about myself and H.

However, sometimes I think it would have been a lot easier to power my way out of the door whilst still fuelled with a lot of anger.

Right now I am mostly very very sad.

Today seemed like a reasonably good day, H and I managed to discuss childcare arrangements up til the school holidays quite calmly and sensibly.

We each spent time doing fun things with the DC and H is actually encouraging them to get a little excited about the new house and buying new furniture etc.

But I have just been hit by a massive wave of sadness again after overhearing part of a conversation between DC1 and a friend. DC1 was saying that he had no idea at all this was coming and had never seen us argue or fight.

I was sure they were at least aware of the horrible atmosphere, particularly over the last few months so it's a bit of slap in the face to realise they had no idea at all and this must seem totally incomprehensible to them.

I agree with just, go in, don’t get swayed by H, into any area of discussion you don’t wish to discuss, ask your questions and leave.

I agree that the old reflexes of deferral are still likely to kick in in this situation.
But if you feel strong enough & grey rock enough, & can fix the convo on the doctor, asking him questions, & waiting for answers, no emotion, no justification. if the answers are not coming & he starts to try group therapy/analysis, you can stop it, & say.
This isn't about me, this isn't about making H better, this is about the protection of my DC. & leave calmly & continue with the broader inquiry

Also, you can say, in view of the visible paranoia (tape on phone)
You have clear evidence that he is not lucid. (The doctor doesn't know this)

This isn't about me, this isn't about making H better, this is about the protection of my DC. & leave calmly & continue with the broader inquiry

Good tip. I think that's the conclusion I've come to as well.

I can go in from the outset saying that this is ONE element of making sure the DC are ok but of course I will be continuing with the broader enquiry until I am satisfied that they are safe.

Re : grey rock - I'm practising and practising no deferral too.

I watched an episode of The good wife last night and watched Alicia dealing with her husband winding her up and trying to manipulate her.

I think I need a "what would Alicia do?" charm or bracelet or something

I can see that the state I was in on Wednesday and Thursday will not be helpful if I go to this interview. I will need to get some sleep, prepare my points, and do some yoga beforehand to stay calm, in control and not teary or "hysterical".

Also, You can lead the direction of this meeting, it depends if Doc is giving the lead, or you are.
Doctors expect to be in charge. but you can cut in, & can say
"I understand he has a disorder, I have been his wife for X years."
The fact is, we are divorcing & I will not be able to provide contact for DC unsupervised until H is deemed well., the people involved up till now have failed me on this.
You can bring the conversation back to the issue at hand

The doctor knows he is out with his DC at the w/e. so he presumably will say s/he is not dangerous.
"So what about when he had his meltdown in a public place & disappeared without a trace, & was taken away by the police (?)"
what about the anti-spyware (tape)
why is he still in a psychiatric clinic at all ?", & not back being a normal functioning adult & parent ?"

"s/he" was for the psy !

the problem is that his diagnosis isnt a mental breakdown - it may have reached a crisis point because of losing control, but it is who he is. Personality disorders are deeply ingrained and it needs to take an openess and willingness to recognise and work on completely changing your mindset in order to address it. Which seems to be something women, much less men, are likely to be able to do.
The crisis may be over, but the underlying, controlling, abusive behaviour is always going to be there. I think he believes that going into the system will help him win, and he is using the medical staff to help him achieve that.

Yes

there is nothing to win now,

I think you need to read up on personality disorders so you can explain that you understand that as your husband is over 30 years old, he will not get well. He will function better sometimes and sometimes he won’t. When he feels that things aren’t going his way, he will spiral out of control again. You are aware that one part of his life likely to stimulate feelings of being out of control is solo parenting. As the parent who has been solely responsible for the safety of those kids while you were with him, you need to ensure that they are safe while you are not there. All logical line of thought... write it down. Even wear a friendship bracelet or something to remind yourself... WWAD?

I haven't posted on this thread before. I'm in awe of your strength, jamais. Is there a possibility of you taking someone in for support when you meet with H and the psychiatrist? If not, I'd write down your points and stick to them. That's helped me in the past with difficult meetings. Also, take your time when asking/answering questions and try not to be deflected from your point. Good luck.

If you are going to go take your notes. Make lots of notes and bullet point them so that you can refer to them easily.

When your dh raises a point or accuses you of something or tries to give what he considers a valid reason to have the dc unsupervised, or claims he is well and recovered, or whatever he says, just pause.

Pause for a second. Look at your notes.

Look at the psychiatrist and make your next point from your notes.

Do not respond to ex. Do not engage with him. That is not what you are there for. You are there to consult with the psychiatrist, not him.

Practice this at home and, if you can, with a friend.

Personally I still don't think you should go. He is coercing you into being in his presence. He is doing this so that he can manipulate you. I wouldn't give him the satisfaction. But if you do decide to go ahead with it at least the psychiatrist will get to see him in action I suppose.

Agreed, you don't want to speak to H, you are only there to speak to psy. Any waffle about who is right & who is wrong is completely off topic. you make a silent pause, then say to psy, "back to the reason I'm here....."

I agree you should go as it may help your case in future to show you have been reasonable if there ever comes a time when you need to. Personally I don't think a diagnosis is going to be much help either way (so he's depressed/psychotic/ whatever - some people with those diagnoses will be a huge danger to themselves or others, others with the same diagnosis wont ever be a danger to anyone and many more (perhaps like your H) will be a danger at times when they are having an episode but not when it's past).

But you can use the opportunity to put your experiences of h's behaviour including the lies, manipulation and masking to the pysch (who wont have heard your side).

Ask the docs Can you guarantee that there is no risk to the dcs if he sees them alone? They can't guarantee anything of course. Use this as support for continuing not to let him have them unaccompanied.

Ask the docs Can you guarantee he has no intention of carrying out the threats he made against me? They can't. Use this as support for remaining no contact.

Good luck Jamais. You are stronger than you know.

NO psychiatrist worth his / her salt is going to give a definitive diagnosis of psychosis / personality disorder after just one clinical episode, even with a few weeks in hospital.

May I suggest you write down factors which you believe are relevant and questions you have concerning the safety of the children and send these to the psychiatrist. He / she has to have permission of the patient before they can talk to you, but they do not need permission to listen to what you have to say. Explain in your letter that you are minded to continue requiring supervision of visits and no over nights (how can he have the children over night in a psychiatric clinic? would never happen in my day) until he is symptom free.
I agree with others that meeting with psychiatrist and your 'D'H would not be fruitful and with true respect and compassion I'm not sure you are in a emotional position to 'grey rock' to the high level you will need to. I'm not sure you would be able to walk out sooner rather than later and he would get under your skin and knock your recovery back several weeks. I think you need to work on strengthening your resolve before you meet to discuss something as important as future contact with the children.

I would conduct information exchange via letter / email - tell the psychiatrist this is because of how he has treated you in the past and that as you are separated with a view to divorce it's not appropriate at this point in time, unless and until he is symptom free

How real is the psychiatrist meeting plan?

H has now replied that he is prepared for me to meet with his psychiatrist (in his presence) in the next few days.

What H says he wants and what a psychiatrist will do are not necessarily the same.

I would expect a phone call with the psychiatrist prior to any meeting. The dr would explain to you the "rules" of the meeting, what can and cannot be discussed/done/resolved. She/he would ask you what you hope to gain from the meeting. She/he would tell you what they hope to gain from a meeting with you.

A scope, objectives and agenda for the meeting so you all know what's what in advance. If nobody is contacting you for that then I'd be suspicious that meetings are a figment of DH's mind.

NO psychiatrist worth his / her salt is going to give a definitive diagnosis of psychosis / personality disorder after just one clinical episode, even with a few weeks in hospital.

Very True - which is why the question isn't 'Is he safe to ...'

BUT 'Can you guarantee my DC will be safe?'

repeat repeat repeat

Can you provide a medical report which states that my children will be safe with with unsupervised access with their father?

H says his psychiatrist guarantees that the dc are fine with him.

I don't believe that and the Dr has never actually seen H interact with anyone outside the clinic (our friends who visit haven't met him).

I would like to ask what medication he is taking and for how long and what the side effects are?

I will also outline my proposal for taking it slowly and gradually building up contact with the dc.

I will point out what the dc have already been exposed to with h (a month ago and on the last visit) and ask if Dr can guarantee they won't be exposed to any paranoia at all.

I will ask if Dr can guarantee that H's return to his extremely full on job in September will not provoke any kind of relapse and that there is 0 risk of H having another "episode" exposing the dc to a situation where they would need to call 999.

I spoke to my lawyer last night and the good news is that H's lawyer thinks him demanding 50/50 residence is a no go in the immediate future and he is going to try to tell H that in his own interest, he mustn't insist on it(if there is any kind of problem while with the dc his chances if custody are then 0).

He knows we will be asking for an outside psychiatric report on H.

Also we are still going to try for an early court date because my friend (just mine) was there with me at ER when we found H and were told he was going to be transferred to the psychiatric unit. It's not as good as a full report from the other friend but it's prove that he was there and we have proof it was three weeks.

AFAIK, he will be on medication for a long long time forever .
When he decides he is better in spite of clear directions NOT to stop the medication, & it goes with the diagnosis of being paranoid & that people are out to get you as the medication is poison/someone wants to kill you etc). He will take himself off it & relapse.
Plus if you see him, he may well have changed physically. put on weight, puffy, dozy. (just so you are aware.)

Might be good to ask the statistics for relapse and for staying on meds, rehospitalisation, etc.... You might need to also need to get same from your own “expert medical witness” for court.

What you're planning sounds good, together with the plan not to engage with exh. Although maybe if there was an opportunity to highlight any paranoia that might be helpful.

Please bring up that he is displaying paranoid/delusional behaviour that does impact on the DC - the phone thing, both that he went out and got despite previous agreement then taping over the camera, that really is paranoia.

You are Still doing so brilliantly!
I forks
Would have a think about how you word questions and how you record the answers. Ask if you can record on a device perhaps, or if the psych will provide detailed written notes of the meeting as well as you taking yours.
"Can you guarantee..." is a good question, if you need the answer to be "no".