LEAVING sulking H

[jamaisjedors]

I can't believe this is my third thread.

I first posted in December about my H's sulking and silent treatment - I was ready to leave then but then got persuaded to give it another go.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

My second thread is where everyone helped me work through what was going on, helped IRL by individual and joint counselling.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3498886-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking-part2?msgid=85957683

We have now made a joint decision to separate, and I have found somewhere to live.

I don't regret not leaving in January because I have had time to process a lot of things, confide in friends, and come to understand a lot of things about myself and H.

However, sometimes I think it would have been a lot easier to power my way out of the door whilst still fuelled with a lot of anger.

Right now I am mostly very very sad.

Today seemed like a reasonably good day, H and I managed to discuss childcare arrangements up til the school holidays quite calmly and sensibly.

We each spent time doing fun things with the DC and H is actually encouraging them to get a little excited about the new house and buying new furniture etc.

But I have just been hit by a massive wave of sadness again after overhearing part of a conversation between DC1 and a friend. DC1 was saying that he had no idea at all this was coming and had never seen us argue or fight.

I was sure they were at least aware of the horrible atmosphere, particularly over the last few months so it's a bit of slap in the face to realise they had no idea at all and this must seem totally incomprehensible to them.

He's not behaving normally. He gave a child a phone with tape on and told him it was spying on him. That's not normal behaviour, that's paranoid.

What will happen if you stop them visiting him? There are a couple of things to sort out here.

1. The issue of whether the children are safe with him is paramount. This has to come to a head. If his doctor won't give you that assurance I think you should take it through legal routes such as courts or mediation. You need confirmation that they are safe with him. That's it. I don't think you can get into any trouble for that.

2. Why are you in contact with him anyway. What sorts of things do you need to discuss? You need to stop getting reports from friends and stop having any contact with him.

1. I'm kind of stuck now that he has "apparantly" asked his doctor who said no problem with him seeing the DC. Although I'm choosing to wait to hear it directly and meanwhile getting the social worker to as for an investigation.

The courts won't give us an emergency date without testimony from our friends who are now refusing to give it, so it's only my word against H about him being in the hospital, i have a piece of paper saying when he was admitted and released from the initial hospital but no details of his condition. My hope is the report from the social worker because she knows the kids have been exposed to his behavious (she saw DC2 the first week it all happened).

The contact with H was to respond to his requests (via the children and friends) to see the DC. He is kind of taking the DC hostage because he calls them and says he will be seeing them on such and such day etc. and the friends facilitate it.

The problem with the DCs is that they say H is behaving almost normally so don't see why they shouldn't see him. I have explained about the no overnight stuff and they understand.

It doesn't sound like normal behaviour at all. He is getting your children to collude in his paranoia (taping over the phone camera) and that doesn't sound healthy for your kids at all. He has overruled your parenting over the phone - he is undermining. Have you had the phone checked - is it set up to track your children and reveal the address where you live?

I would be inclined to play hardball now in your own childrens' interests. The friends have played a mediation role during the worst bit but your H is now using them to undermine your role as resident parent. I would not be happy about your H making direct contact and feeding his paranoia to the kids and I would not be happy about the friends skipping out and leaving access unsupervised. I also found the fact that they had a bath odd in the context of a short contact visit - were they supposed to be washing germs or trackers off? Paranoia?

I would not accept anything your H says about contact approved by the doctor at face value. So I think you are going to have to be the parent here and tell the kids/mutual friends that all contact has to be arranged through you and that there will be NO contact unless his doctor talks to you 1:1 and satisfies you that your children are safe - physically and emotionally.

At the moment your H is manipulating you from afar - he is undermining your parenting decisions and contacting the children directly from a psychiatric clinic. You need to put your foot down before your children are held hostage. No contact while he is paranoid. If he has a huge tantrum well it's best he has it in the clinic.

You can always break out the old Mumsnet chestnut “No. That doesn’t work for me.” and leave it there.....
Don’t be manipulated by friends because it’s best for him. So what? That makes it easier for THEM. They just happen to be the new YOU in the relationship with him at the moment. Let them suck it up for a while and see how much they’re willing to tolerate before they decide to testify on your behalf.... You need to explain your boundaries to your friends very clearly now that your responsibility is to your kids and what is best for them. (It also happens to be what is best for you, but as we know, as mothers, that’s always incindental.)
Jamais, my family is full of paranoid sociopaths. I know your struggle. I know how they manipulate the system so that they have more legal rights than their victims - especially you. Unfortunately, in this case it often means that until the kids are put into a situation where they feel unsafe or uncomfortable or they are physically or emotionally unsafe and can actually express this to a court - and you can prove that they haven’t been coerced - the parent with the MH problem will have more legal rights than the parent who is trying to protect the kids!!! (And will usually be inconsistent with physical and financial input, etc, etc..... at best.)

Start filling up their weekends with planned trips or things to do now, so he can’t spring things on them.

I think you need to stop looking at it from what he says and what he does. That is all irrelevant now.

Take the phone off ds and tell him that if his Dad wants him to have it, he can have it when he is with Dad but in your house it stays off and in your possession (and yes, check to see if there is a tracker on it).

Then stop contact with him completely. The reasons are:

1. You have no official confirmation that he is sufficiently recovered enough to be responsible for them and to keep them safe and

2. The previous agreement that you had re supervised contact has been broken so new agreements needs to be arranged.

Wait for him to instigate proceedings. The worst that will happen is that you have to allow him unsupervised access. But don't just give him that. Make him go to court and get it all ordered legally. I'm pretty sure his true colours will come out in court but if not, you are no worse off than you are now.

It doesn't matter that it's your word against his. The important thing is that this is drawn to the attention of the authorities which makes it more likely that steps will be taken to keep the dc safe.

Why won’t your friends help that’s awful

I agree with the advice above

I too agree that the phone should be taken off your Ds. You haven’t given permission for him to have one and he’s gone completely against your expressed wishes.
Take back control! Your son can have the phone when he’s with his dad.
I’d also be concerned that the phone has something like “Find My Friends” activated.

Ok, thanks all, my rage is still simmering but DC1 saw the social worker at school this morning so fingers crossed she will file her report by the end of the week.

The DC are invited to a barbecue with friends of H on Sunday and the organiser has offered to pick them up.

I have arranged for her to come and get them late morning and then told her and H that I will be picking the DC up at 5pm. I kept the email to the strict minimum.

That way they will not be alone with H but still see him this weekend.

On your advice I will contact the friends and say I don't want the DC to see H alone while he is still in hospital.

I have also told them that as they won't testify as to H's illness, I have asked the social worker to intervene (so they may have to testify anyway but at least they can tell H that they had no choice).

I have made lots of plans for any free time the DC have over the next couple of weeks so that they will be too busy to see H if he checks himself out of the clinic at the end of the month.

WELL DONE!!!

You're taking control back again Jamais, well done. You'll keep having to do this due to his nature but you get better at it every time you have to. You are such a strong advocate for your dc, I admire you

Furious on your behalf with the friends, What the fuck is this refusal to acknowledge H's behaviour. then leaving Dc alone in spite of their promises to survey them ?
I agree that it's not because H says the doc is OK with the visits, that this is actually what the Doc says. ditto re showing email to doctor, he can manipulate this to his advantage.
I would stop all contact until H asks the Psy to confirm this matter to you, In the interest of the DC.
Why would a parent allow DC to spend time with a mentally unstable hospitalised man ? Just because he is the father does not mean he is safe. & the tape over the camera goes to prove he is not "normal"

He is still playing games and trying to game the system.

He thinks that by being the only source of contact regarding his health that he can behave as he likes and bully you back into running around after him like you did before. You have been so conditioned by him to behave in this way that you are automatically putting what he wants first and tiptoeing around him.

I would really cut down all contact - maybe an hour or 2 supervised a week or less. If he doesn't like it let him can go to court and explain about the mobile phone "watching him"

My ex was diagnosed with 'Delusions of persecution'. There has been a few instances where your DH has made me sit up straight, because it's brought back horrible memories of it. The taping of the phone is one such memory.
It might be worth having a google of it and seeing if it sounds like your DH.

MN to the rescue again!

I was feeling really rubbish and that everything was out of control and yoi have helped me get on track again.

Plus I went to yoga and got myself a new mantra "I am strong, I am in control "

I'm not sure the control thing is very yoga but after years of BEING controlled it's working for me at the moment.

Thanks all.

Will look at the delusions thing, imo (and my therapist' s) H has a paranoid personality disorder plus delusions.

H has now replied that he is prepared for me to meet with his psychiatrist (in his presence) in the next few days. That's fine, I will prepare some points and questions to get my own answers but one chat with him won't mean I'm ready to hand over the dc.

Night all.

Be spied on was the main paranoia of the young girl I mentioned before, infiltration on the phone, people reading her messages, spies everywhere,

Yep mix my ex thought people entered our flat while we were out, sent us messages via the TV/radio/bilboard adverts etc.
His psychiatrist asked me whether my ex thought I was in on it. I said, "he thinks I'm too stupid to be in on it." Psychiatrist said "that's good".......I can laugh now.

Keep safe Jamias.

My psychologist seems to think I'm not in danger anymore because he's not in a state of psychosis.

He also seems to have calmed down a lot where I'm concerned because the friends keep telling him I'm not the enemy.

I guess the drugs/therapy most be helping a bit too as he is managing to be civil (if passive aggressive- nothing new!) By email.

KOKO you are doing well

H has now replied that he is prepared for me to meet with his psychiatrist (in his presence) in the next few days.

What will that achieve? This is just him calling the shots again. He offers a few crumbs and expects you to come running. Don't do it.

It's always advised not to have counselling with an abusive partner. I know this isn't counselling but the psychiatrist will not be able to tell you anything without his permission so he will be in control of the whole situation.

I strongly advise you not to do this. There is nothing to gain.

I would tell the psychiatrist what you would like to know and if exdh isn't prepared for you to have that information, so be it. He isn't going to let you have it whether you are there or not. And if it comes with conditions, that's just him trying to control you again.

You really need to walk away from all this game playing. Don't give him the power.

I have to agree with Fairenuff, Jamais. I don't think it's a good idea to get embroiled with him again. Plus he'll be as manipulative as ever - and some - which you really don't need.

I'm so sorry you're facing this, Jamais

I'm liking your new mantra!

Big hugs and major awe from me at how you are handing all of this. Amazing (not really) how he continues to place himself centre stage.

Anyway, I don't have any advice to offer except to mind yourself, put yourself centre stage.

Take care.

I don’t know... ask him in front of the psychiatrist if he’s willing to have a full psychiatric report attesting to the safety of the children in his presence unsupervised and overnight. If he is not, say thank you and walk out.
You can then diarise this and prove that he was being obstructive.

Including physical and emotional risks to the kids, etc

I'm torn.

If I refuse to meet the psychiatrist when I've asked for guarantees it could look obstructive on my part.

On the other hand, meeting the psychiatrist (who has never seen the DC with the children) may then mean I "have" to hand over the DC when I don't believe for a minute that the DC are safe and that 50/50 residency is a good option at this point.

Meeting him with H goes both ways.

If H is not there, the psychiatrist will use confidentiality to basically not tell me anything.

If I ask in front of H for a clear diagnosis, and H refuses, I can just walk out and ask for a full psychiatric report (which is hopefully what the social worker is going to ask for anyway).

I could ask to see the psychiatrist to get a clear diagnosis of what is wrong with H but still carry on with the "medical/social/psychiatric report" concerning what is best for the DC.

So basically, say to H that as a co-parent, I need to know what his diagnosis is to be able to effectively co-parent with him and help the children, but that as far as the children's welfare is concerned, just meeting with the psychiatrist is not a sufficient guarantee of what is best for them and therefore I am asking for a broader enquiry.