LEAVING sulking H

[jamaisjedors]

I can't believe this is my third thread.

I first posted in December about my H's sulking and silent treatment - I was ready to leave then but then got persuaded to give it another go.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

My second thread is where everyone helped me work through what was going on, helped IRL by individual and joint counselling.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3498886-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking-part2?msgid=85957683

We have now made a joint decision to separate, and I have found somewhere to live.

I don't regret not leaving in January because I have had time to process a lot of things, confide in friends, and come to understand a lot of things about myself and H.

However, sometimes I think it would have been a lot easier to power my way out of the door whilst still fuelled with a lot of anger.

Right now I am mostly very very sad.

Today seemed like a reasonably good day, H and I managed to discuss childcare arrangements up til the school holidays quite calmly and sensibly.

We each spent time doing fun things with the DC and H is actually encouraging them to get a little excited about the new house and buying new furniture etc.

But I have just been hit by a massive wave of sadness again after overhearing part of a conversation between DC1 and a friend. DC1 was saying that he had no idea at all this was coming and had never seen us argue or fight.

I was sure they were at least aware of the horrible atmosphere, particularly over the last few months so it's a bit of slap in the face to realise they had no idea at all and this must seem totally incomprehensible to them.

Yes I think the kids will need a therapist sooner rather than later if they are starting to see their dad regularly.

Will get on it this week.

Regarding the children I agree that you should not jump to ex's defence but instead validate their feelings. It's a good idea to plan some phrases that will give them the tools to deal with him when he asks for information:

"I'm not really sure what mum's plans are about that."

"I'd rather not talk about that right now."

"I don't want to make any decision right now."

"That's a lot, let me think about it."

"I'm not sure."

That sort of thing.

That’s really good advice above, Jamais. I used to have a list of reasons next to my door and my phone for when my mother rang or dropped by expecting me to be made available immediately for whatever silly game she intended to play that day, rather than being put on the spot. “I’m just on my way to a get my split ends trimmed.”
“Actually, I can’t today, I am heading out in a minute for a Pap smear” The kind of thing nobody asks questions about, or anything you’re going to be put on the spot about. You can find some that suit your context and have them ready to go. Pre-loaded non-answers are a brilliant defense against potential abuse from personality disorders if you see ahead where the danger lies.

Is he paranoid enough to potentially place spyware on your DC’s phone (the one he wants to buy for him)?

Also, no wonder why your DC were feeling awkward after being bombarded with questions about you etc.

Maybe his doctor needs to advise him that this cannot happen, as it’s only going to increase his already paranoid delusional state.

They need to know they can say, Whats the food like? or Let's talk about something else.
On the other hand, Him asking if they are in a flat or a house, or if they have a garden, & how do they get to school is normal questionning for a parent, except we suspect there is more to it than that.
In terms of him taking notes, what is trying to prove do you think ? How unfair you are to leave him ? If he doesn't accept a divorce à l'amiable, in 2 years it will be possible anyway, the kids were always going to be 50/50. What was jointly funded is still going to be split 50/50
What am I missing ?

I'm really annoyed with myself, the habit is so ingrained and I don't want them to think badly of their dad, but I am going to stop it from now on and just nod or say nothing when they say things; I don't want to be accused of turning them against him which is also why I didn't validate what they said, but still I regret it now.

Don't be hard on yourself for that. It is ingrained because you have done it for so many years. It might be helpful to discuss with your therapist how best to handle it.
It's lovely to see you saying that the boys were happy to be home to you and the word peaceful jumps out from your post.
You have achieved so much in a short space of time.

It's OK to tell the children the truth about yourself too. Tell them directly that you've been in the habit of covering up their dad's behaviour, now you've split up you are trying to be more honest with yourself and with them, without being mean or inappropriate, and it is hard for you. If they tell you about their dad and you start dismissing their feelings or pretending everything is fine when they don't feel fine then they are allowed to say "Muuum, you are doing it again!".

They need to learn to challenge both you and their dad when their inconvenient feelings are being trampled.

Ok, talked to the kids and apologised for jumping in and offering an alternative explanation to what their gut feeling is. I encouraged them to listen to what their feelings are.

DC1 said it's actually hard to know what to think because they don't know enough about what's going on.

So I explained more about H's paranoia, and also about the fact that he was very angry with me about the separation (DC1 said a friend of his who is normally very calm, wanted to punch things when he split up with his girlfriend) and that they were scared in the hospital that he might try and hurt me (because he is sick) and that is why we had to move out so quickly and also why I am getting quotes for cameras/alarms etc.

I also told them specically that the paranoia was always more or less there and more or less under control, but in a stressful situation, turned into a delusion of being controlled and part of a conspiracy (they were telling me about a similar plot from a book they are reading so I refered to that).

I said he wasn't angry with them, but with me, and also might be paranoid about the way I'm taking care of them so might ask them lots of questions about that because he might feel they are in danger with me even though when he is not sick, he knows that I am their mum and we chose to have the kids together and loved each other and them very much.

We also talked a bit about the fact that he is over-cautious and I am more laid-back normally, which when we were married balanced itself out in parenting, but might be more difficult to manage now we are separated (DC has a specific issue where I agree he can do something and his dad doesn't want him to do it so this is topical!).

Not sure if I'm doing this right at all but I'm doing my best to be open and honest with them so they know what's going on.

I slept horrifically badly last night (I stayed up late writing up my notes about the last couple of weeks) so am going to try to get some sleep now. x

I think that is a good start honest and neutral, I hope you sleep much much better tonight

Sounds bloody perfect to me! You’re talking to your kids like they are reasonable, intelligent people who also happen to be involved in this situation - because they are!

It's great that your dcs have felt able to ask you much more and they got such honest, calm and fair answers from you. Your dcs sound really insightful and you sound like a fab mum who will see them through this with love and common sense.

Is there anyone you can consult about if the kids will be safe when with their father. If he has had a psychotic snap, will he hurt them to hurt you? Is there a reason why the kids should see their dad more regularly? He has been recently hospitalized because he’s not coping. I really don’t think there should be any rush to give him regular parental access

That sounds like a great conversation. I bet the children feel more confident.

Hope you slept Jamais
That sounds good & that they participated & weren't just embarrassed & mute. You can only be truthful & calm, tell them they can ask any questions that come to them & you will answer as best you can.
First, did the boys ask to go or did he say he wanted to see them ? Has he asked to see them every w/e ? Have they asked to go again ? If they aren't keen then they shouldn't go IMHO
Could you ask doctors what is the best procedure for DC? Since he is apparently "out to get you" ?
Are they moving him to another place?
Do they feel he is emerging from this paranoiac episode? He is interrogating DCs & you wonder what is the best for them ? (& him,) the ideal would be he came round & accepted the separation as a sad fatality.
Sorry for all the questions, just thinking out loud.

Could the mobile phone be because he wants a way to contact the DC without OP being an intermediary? Unless you monitored their phone all the time, he could be texting DC without you knowing.

If he does give the dc a new mobile, please check it doesn’t have a tracking app put on it.

Check before the phone comes to your new house.

Would he have the knowledge & opportunity to organise a tracking bug, other than the inbuilt feature where you can follow your child's whereabouts ?

I think being honest without judgemental will do you and the dc well.

They are not Stupid. They know something is wrong and you being open with them and allowing them to be open and expressing their feelings will help immensely.

Their dad on the other hand won’t be so open and will probably dismiss their feelings, so it will be great for them to have a place of safety to talk about it.

As they are old enough, they should have some say in how much they see him. They might just want short visits in neutral places for a while and that should be fine. Although I don’t foresee your ex being so happy with it but at least they have an understanding as to why and won’t blame themselves.

I think you did well. Children know when they're being fobbed off and you are showing them that they can trust you.

Update...

H has finally been moved to a clinic rather than the psychiatric hospital. Apparantly he is much happier there and has access to a phone and his computer and outside space and his own room.

This is good and I am relieved for him.

What's stressing me out now is that he will be starting all over again with a new psychiatrist and it seems they don't want to see me or hear from me at all. So basically he can spin any lies he wants about me and our relationship and then be declared perfectly fit and fine and check out.

I don't think anyone, including the friends who saw him in the throes of the paranoid delusion, realises the extent of his personality disorder because he does such a good job of hiding it.

For example last night I chatted to our friend who has been so amazing with both of us.

He brought up something H said in the first week about us separating "someone will be happy".

Friend took this to mean that I had a lover or that H suspected me of having a lover.

I knew immediately what he meant, in the past H has accused this friend of trying to cause trouble in our relationship and of trying to split us up. This is not true, friend likes to joke with everyone.

So in this case, I know (from living with H for 20+ years) that H meant the friend when he said that.

I thought the friend had understood originally but when he brought it up again today asking what I thought, I told him.

He was horrified and it had never occurred to him that H could think such an awful thing about him. I feel awful myself for having said it, it was not necessary and our friend has been absolutely fair and amazing to us both.

Similarly, our friend said that H's work had called and will have to take over some of H's workload. Friend said that H was happy that they had called... and that H had said that now they would see how much work he really does ... which for me is the reason why he was pleased they had called.

Also friend said that H was pleased that his mum had called... but that he had said "she is grovelling at his feet" - which is why he is pleased as well.

In other news, H called the DC last night, they said he was being less "inquisitive/interrogative" and they had a reasonably normal conversation and will see him on Saturday (with our friend).

I also saw my lawyer and so have been racing to get the paperwork to her to get things started because in the meantime, it's as if we were still marrried financially and for the DC, so I would have no right to refuse him access to them.

This is also really stressing me out, because we probably won't get a court date for 6-8 months and in the interim, there is nothing I can do once he is out of the clinic to stop him having the DC overnight etc.

The lawyer might be able to ask for an emergency date but even that wouldn't be for a couple of months at least.

I have handed in all the paperwork and there is nothing much more I can do now but it's stopping me sleeping at night.

I think you should insist you see the new psy... maybe leave it till they have met !! You are still his wife after all, you are worried about the DC. & it is YOU of all people not the friend, who knows his in-depth character thoroughly,

How will they ever know he is lying ?

re lawyer, is the panic because you are worried about any risk to Dc overnight ?

seeing the dc 24/7 from chaperoned visits is one hell of an immediate step. don't panic.

when my (d)f took me to see a pysch he was spitting feathers because he saw me first. I was 16 and pregnant when abortion was illegal.

Our emergency date took about a month to come through. Do your kids need their own lawyer? Sorry I've forgotten their ages again. Mine were 8&9 the first time they had a lawyer. For minors they're court appointed. It's a good idea to get psychological report on the kids too pré court if possible. Ask your lawyer what you can do to help yourself.