Confronting DH about his sulking...part2

[jamaisjedors]

New thread :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3448545-Confronting-DH-about-his-sulking?msgid=84022238

First one is running out of space due to all the amazing support I have had from all you mners!

To summarize, H is a serious sulker, gives me the silent treatment to get his own way or to "punish" me.

I was ready to leave, almost out the door over Christmas/New year.

Things have calmed down now as he has agreed to see a psychotherapist and suggested marriage counselling. I have my own psychotherapist.

Now trying to work through why on earth this has happened and make a calm, rational decision about my future and our family's future.

Ask the counsellor what they said next session, to confirm that he is trying to manipulate you again. Do it every time he tries to twist things and you will see that it's him, not you.

Do you want your children to live like you are? No? Then you need to leave.

It is not an irrevocable decision, if you both realise the divorce was a mistake you are allowed to get remarried. Somehow I think you will be so happy once the divorce is finalised that you will wonder why you waited so long.

what if I'd tried harder?

What would the missing sign say? it's not you, it's him or maybe "it would be impossible to make this relationship work ".

Plus the insidious doubts from years of being told that it is all me,

Frankly, Jamais why does it matter who is to blame? Why do you feel you need him to accept his fault? Why is it important that the counsellor calls him out? He seems unwilling or incapable of even trying to make any changes so why does it all hinge on him being to blame?

The only thing that matters is that you are not happy with him. Would you be happier living without him? That's what you have to think through.

Accept that it doesn't matter if one of you is 'to blame' ultimately it comes down to two things:

Are you going to be happy if the relationship continues as it is?
Is the relationship going to change?

If neither of the answers is yes then sure the decision is made already, the only question is when

I'm sure if it was just you to think about you would have gone years ago.

It's the kids isn't it. The massive upheaval for them. That's why you feel you have to be sure.

I do wish you would stop having deep conversations with him. It's like arguing with a devil, he's getting more and more outrageous. And you're getting more and more pulled in every time you have one of your wretched conversations.

This is why I think you will stay.

He has given you all the signs. It's very, very clear what he wants.

It doesn't matter how many people tell you, you won't believe them.

You've been doing this for ten years, I think you will go another ten yet.

Jamais, he seems to have many narcissistic characteristics. If he sees you as his narcissistic extension/supply, he is not going to change.

Does any of this sound familiar?
He does not see you as a separate person, but rather as an extension of himself. He violates your boundaries to get you to serve his wants and needs. He feels entitled to your time, energy and attention. He won’t accept anything less than total support and compliance, no matter how you are affected, and he coerces you to get it. He never really sees, hears or considers you. He views you as a reflection of himself and how others view him.

When you question his behavior, he becomes dismissive or hostile. He will not admit wrongdoing. If you tell him he has hurt you, he attacks you instead of apologizing, and may actually force you to apologize. He is unwilling to change for you, and has little sense of shame. His needs are of primary importance, even if yours are sacrificed.

If you feel that this is a possibility, I would bring it up with your individual therapist.

Thanks for all the messages.

Are you waiting for him to say it's over? If he does, are you going to ask him not to say that and to take you back? If not, it's time to go.

This made me think. The other day in counselling he said something which almost made me think he was saying it was over - I had a moment of feeling sick and then was relieved. If he said it was over I would not ask him to take me back. I would be able to move on.

Do you still want to have the feeling in your chest, head and heart in 3 months, 6 months, a year, 5 years time? Because it's not going away now, why will it go away in future based on the last few months of action?

No, I am so sick of this feeling and it won't go away whatever I do, yoga, meditation, seeing friends, pills...

Re: the blame issue.

I guess I am finding it hard to take all the blame myself as I know I will have to shoulder the responsbility of moving out, telling the DC, and risk being "blamed" by H for "leaving".

It is helping to hear the counsellor put her finger on things that have bothered me for years (and which have been dismissed and minimised for years) and to break out of the idea that I am either "over-emotional" or "over-agressive" and that there is something seriously wrong with the dynamic in our relationship.

This is spot on :
It's the kids isn't it. The massive upheaval for them. That's why you feel you have to be sure.

This is a massive thing for the kids and affects the rest of their lives - family holidays, christmas, birthdays, even grandchildren down the line.

When I weigh this with H telling me that our marriage is perfectly normal and that I am too idealistic, I worry that it would be ridiculously selfish and delusional to walk away.

I also don't hate H, I still feel a pull towards him and feel incredible sadness that we have not made this work when there was so much potential.

I agree that if I can find a house, it will be less like jumping off a cliff and more like stepping onto a bridge.

Thanks for being here and keeping my head straight (and for the sign )

OP, have followed both threads but I don't think I've commented before. As someone who was married to a narcissist, please, please don't wait for him to acknowledge that anything was his fault. It just won't happen. It's part of the personality profile.

Why are you bothered if H blames you for leaving? What is it about his baker that bothers you so much?

I think what might also help is trying to look at it from the 'other side' of that bridge. Once you jump, you will look back and think 'I could have done this sooner. I could have had longer here, being happy, forming this life with the kids, before X time when they will move on (uni, moving out etc.) I could have been bedding in here all that time when I was dithering, making sure.'

I think you were right to take the time you have to make sure of your feelings. I think you know yourself very well. But now I think you are definitely at the end of that time and now it is just putting off the final step, so now - time IS being wasted.

Think of it as a huge curve - you have gone down, you are now at the bottom... the longer you bump along the bottom, the longer it will be before the 'curve' starts coming up. Because it will come up. He will formulate his own blameless narrative regardless of what you do, but he will also get used to the new situation and things will gradually improve. Ditto for the children, who will (believe me) know EXACTLY why you have left and will soon feel the difference in their everyday lives, once you are settled. So the longer this part continues, the longer it will be into the future before things start to look good again.

Also there is no possible way that staying any longer and doing anything more or different will change the way he reacts to you leaving. He'll blame you and lie to himself and you just have to shrug at that. Write him a long letter why, setting everything out and just refuse to listen to his rewriting and say 'refer to my letter'. If he insists on more discussion, say you'll only do it with the counsellor there as otherwise he'll simply bulldoze you with his version. And then ultimately, you'll be saying 'Yes I know you think this, I don't agree and that's why I have taken these decisions. You think it's wrong, we're never going to agree, we're going to have to leave it there with you blaming me. I don't have to accept that blame though. Now, let's talk about organising the children'.

I am a child of a bad marriage. I still resent my parents separating after I left home. My younger siblings got all the benefits of the break up. Sure, at for a few months they were all living in a studio apartment with my dad instead of in the five bed family home a mile away but they never ever say bad things about that time. Jokes about how cramped it was, yes. Jokes about how strict dad was about everyone doing their share and being tidy, yes. Real complaints, no.

My younger siblings describe it as a short period of turmoil followed by a life time of an immeasurably happier time. Christmas and birthdays were much nicer. Family holidays stopped being awful (my mum was similar to your DH on holiday). I'd swap a cheaper shorter holiday with one of them over a bigger fancier holiday with both in a heartbeat. One holiday is a bag of stress. One holiday is relaxing, fun, full of bonding.

You aren't planning to move to the other side of the world, join a cult and live off benefits and robbery, are you? So it's not actually that much upheaval.

With my family a milestone for me was accepting that lies would be told about me, bad spin put on events. So? I never ever argue or correct when faced with reports of such nonsense. A raised eyebrow and a "Let's change the subject" or "I don't want to hear about that. It depresses me. Let's talk about..."

It has definitely proven to be true for me that the people who matter don't mind and the people that mind don't matter.

How would it be to think we're just not compatible any more, rather than trying to assign this blame that's important to you.

@TowelNumber42 thank you for sharing, it's nice to hear something POSITIVE about separation, even if it was not all positive for you.

re : blame - maybe I am focusing on this too much because I feel guilty. Even H has said that he doesn't need to take responsibility for what has happened (unsurprisingly).

I guess I need to step back and just say, this is not working for me anymore, I can't do it, it doesn't matter whose "fault" it is.

My kids were much happier when there Dad wasn't living with us. After about a week DD1, then 3 yo said it's much quieter now. (I Immediately thought oh my god she thinks it's boring.) She followed up with its much nicer.

They would come back after each weekend with him with some shit about me. I'd just say so what do you think? I told my kids all the dirt on me myself thereby taking all his power away. It's worked and they are pretty mature. They no longer see their Dad though. All his own doing but he sees it as them punishing themselves as they are depriving themselves of his brilliance!

this is not working for me anymore, I can't do it, it doesn't matter whose "fault" it is.

this dear jamais is the source of all your power. You can chose what you do, you clearly can't chose for him to change.

power, eh?

My situation was very different from yours - my late H was an alcoholic - but I can honestly say my DDs were SO much happier when he left the house. DD2 started eating again. They both slept better. They felt safe, didn't have to walk on eggshells any more. They were playful and daft in ways they hadn't been in years. The first time I heard DD2 singing in the shower again, I nearly cried.

Please give your DC that. Take the shadow out of their lives.

You should be feeling guilty about dithering and thus keeping everyone in an unsustainable situation. You have made your decision already. That's clear. It's all about the execution now imo.

You deserve a big unmumsnetty hug from all of us. You seem such a decent person. I'm very sorry you are going through all of this Jamais

are you happy though?

This whole its your fault is the final part of him trying to control you into staying but making it your responsibiltiy

just because it is you making the final decision it doesnt make it your fault or your responsibility

Have you thought through scenarios and scripts for specific worries you have?

I have read all 13 pages of this thread. I could have written it myself. I have been separated for nearly 2 years now and that anxious, awful feeling has gone.

jaim you are in a cycle of abuse, please leave. Your children will be fine, you will be more than fine.

Nothing, NOTHING you do, dont do, change or dont change will fix your marriage. Your husband wont ever change, he doesnt want to, doesnt see any need to. And you know yourself that he wont change.

The reason why you seem to be 'dithering' is because you have been abused for so long, your opinion doesnt matter, your self esteem is low and you cannot trust your judgement - that is down to your awful husband. You CAN trust your judgement, and it is telling you to go. There is no 'sign' there is no guarantee - just find a place, get your DC out of there and live a happy life.

Everything he's doing is to maintain the status quo. Ie. he's in control and he gets to carry on just as he has. Every now and then he'll say things he hopes will make you think he's changing, but really are geared to keeping you under control.

I'd still keep my cards close for as long as possible.

He’s not taking any responsibility is he? My abusive ex was the same.
My hit me though and it was hard to call the police to get him out.
He does not want to change. He’s happy as it is. That means to him - that you must be the problem!
NO NO NO.
He doesn’t want to work at the marriage.
You have the power. It’s not working for YOU. That’s enough to end the marriage.
He will try and suck you back in. He will place doubt in your mind.
Keep going - your getting there. 🌺

@Jaxinthebox I know you are right, he is away today overnight and I am able to walk around without that sick feeling all the time.

Scenarious and scripts...

I'm ashamed to admit that I'm afraid of heading into a life where I do everything alone.

In January I was excited by the idea of the freedom, but I'm now facing the idea that it is going to be me, doing everything, forever. I have no family nearby at all.

I have been with H since I was 21, and despite that fact that previous to that, my dream was to live alone in a flat with a cat (!), the thought now of not having anyone to ask for help at any point ever is scary.

I KNOW I can do this, I already have all my lists ready, my excel table of costs, I am perfectly capable but it's scary, I've spent my whole adult life with H.

On the other hand, the thought of never feeling that sick anxiety when he's around is amazing and doesn't feel quite real.

I have read so many threads on here where it seems so obvious that the woman should go, and yet she makes excuses to stay.

I can understand that now, because it never feels that simple in the situation.

I just WISH a house or a flat would come up, I really think I could then just focus on practicalities and move on.

I thought one had come up today, but I called and there are only 2 bedrooms, not three. I guess I might have to reconsider my options for accomodation, but I would prefer the transition to be smooth for the DC and not move them once and then again not long afterwards.