He's broke - does it matter?

[123Jess]

I've been dating my boyfriend for nearly 2 years. We're very happy in most respects - we get along great, he's always a great emotional support to me and we generally have similar values etc. However, over time it's become clear just how broke he is. It never bothered me that he wasn't wealthy, but now that I want to start building a family, and it's become clear just how broke he is, it's made me think that I'm likely to be breadwinner + caretaker and that scares me a bit.

To further expand, I'm 36 (almost 37 - eek) and he's 35. I had a fairly long corporate career before moving to more a balanced job. I switched because I worked crazy hours and wanted to prioritise meeting someone and starting a family. My previous income allowed me to buy my own apartment and to generally not worry extensively about money. I have also financially supported my parents for many years.

My boyfriend is currently studying for a PhD (he still has 2 years to go), and following that he will likely become a postdoc which is a very low paid role.

I love him and don't want to delay starting a family given our ages. But then if I'm lucky enough to get pregnant and be looking after a baby, I won't be earning much either as my current job is much lower paid than my old job and the maternity benefits are also not great.

I also recently discovered my boyfriend is not only broke but that he also has a lot of debts. He seemed quite calm about that, whereas it worried me. Don't get me wrong, I've been in debt in the past too, but I've worked hard to pay it off and to save. Right now his earnings are zero so the debt is getting bigger.

The other part that annoys me is that he is sometimes critical of my past corporate career (I'd say this is the only thing he criticises me for). He thinks I only did it for the money (which is partly true) and that people who only care about money are shallow (he's never said I'm shallow but he's generally scathing about those in the corporate world and how messed up capitalist society is).

I come from a very low income, working class background so it's true that I thought I needed to work hard and get a good job to earn money (partly to help out my parents who suffer from ill health). It's almost a point of pride for him not to care about money and to be committed to having a job that's more of a vocation, I guess.

But then a vocation doesn't necessarily pay the bills. I've always wanted a big family (I am an only child). My boyfriend comes from a family of 6 children. We'd always talked about having a big family but when we talked about it again last week he said that each child is like a second mortgage and we wouldn't be able to afford it.

Overall, I'm just feeling like a bit of an idiot. I worked so hard in my younger years, and now I feel like I'm getting older and I'm desperate to start a family. It's all I've ever wanted and I feel like I wasted my 20s and early 30s working. But now I'm back to worrying about money again. Many of my friends are able not to work, as their husbands/partners earn enough to keep them and they are happy not working. I'm not saying that I don't want to work per se but the one thing I'm certain that I do want is a family and this feels like another big obstacle, despite how hard I've worked to amass my own savings.

I've been generally so happy in this relationship (we've had a few ups and downs but doesn't everyone) and was really feeling ready to take the next step towards family. But now I'm starting to have doubts and fear.

Sorry for the long post xx

it's good that you are questioning this now

he is not suitable to be a responsible parent

it sounds like he will be a financial burden to you - do you think he will do the main childcare? I doubt it from what you've said.

also you mention you are supporting your parents - is that permanent?

if you want a baby now, I'd take the sperm donor route. It would be better than being tied to this man.

Hi everyone,

Thanks so much for all the responses - I'm quite overwhelmed by it all! Sorry for the delay in responding. I am at work so just managed to check the board now in my lunch hour.

I was attracted to him initially because he is smart, interesting, kind and treated me with respect. He is very different to the sort of men I met regularly in the corporate world (not saying everyone is an asshole there, I just met plenty of asshole types and dated a few who were very quickly broken up with!). One poster said I've gone from one extreme to the other, which I guess is true.

In the beginning, he didn't seem that bad a prospect, or to be in financial difficulty. We went on nice dates, for lots of dinners and we travelled abroad together a few times. I presumed he must have a wealthy family background as he went to private school and didn't seem to have money worries despite being a PhD student. Plus most people doing a PhD at that age have some sort of family financial buffer. He also seemed really committed to his degree and I respected that he was willing to make a change later in life and go for something he really wanted. It's just more recently that I found out he isn't funded so there's a lot of money in loans (because his fees are also not funded as well and they're at international student rate so that's pretty hefty in addition to the maintenance). I also thought he'd be a good father, because I thought he'd spend time with the kids and would have more flexibility over his schedule in academia. To be clear, though, it was never my intention for him to be a stay at home dad and me to be the working breadwinner. As I've dreamed of having a family for so long, I wouldn't want to miss my kids childhoods by working crazy hours, as I would want to spend a lot of time with them. I'm happy to work as well (not looking for someone to financially support me), just want that to be reasonable hours or potentially part-time rather than the craszy hours I used to work.

I suppose I admired that he wasn't motivated by money in some sense, as I thought he had good values in that he cared about spending time with children. But I didn't realise how broke he was, which changes things - it makes a difference as then not caring about money is in some sense irresponsible. I guess I thought he must have the luxury not to care.

His PhD is in legal philosophy. So not particularly transferable outside of academia. He could retrain as a lawyer, but this would mean additional study and additional debts. Plus I don't think he ever has any intention of doing that (so I don't know what he would do if the academic career doesn't work out).

The loans are not simple SLC loans. They're government loans from his home country (he's not British) and private loans. This is what concerns me, as although SLC loans don't have high interest and are repayable only over a certain salary threshold, his government loans will become repayable as soon as he graduates and the private loans are already repayable. It also concerns me that he doesn't seem to have a plan to manage that.

He did do some teaching at his university last year. This was purely for CV purposes so he didn't get paid much at all. He has also published. So it's not like he's a complete academic deadbeat, but perhaps also not making the most effort, esp given his age. I'm also worried about his progress (he's 2 years in, has 2 years to go). He thought about changing his topic last year which would essentially mean starting from scratch. His supervisor is also not happy with him at the moment which is adding a lot of stress.

I have enough savings to take care of a baby myself for a period of time (probably the first few years but not their whole life, obviously!). My concern isn't so much the expense of taking care of a child, as I have a lot of savings, I'm pretty good at finding ways to make money and I invest sensibly etc. I think I could sensibly manage that on my own. My real concern is that I'd have the additional expense of taking care of him, or that I would somehow become responsible for his debts (which terrifies the shit out of me as my parents have had serious financial troubles over the years and I know how awful that is). I've spent many years financially supporting my parents (which I don't resent at all as they worked hard all their lives and their inability to earn money now has been due to ill health and other circumstances outside of their control), I would be fully responsible for supporting a child (or children), and I don't think I can deal with an extra dependent (either practically or emotionally).

We do still live separately. He rents a flat which he pays for from his loans. being totally honest, I was a bit concerned when he moved in with me, but I had offered and he said it was only temporary. It did end up being temporary, so he was true to his word in that respect.

He does have lots of good qualities but at the end of the day, I think the biggest issue for me was his reaction when I said that I wanted to try for a baby. He was horrified and thinks I'm still young and fertile and have plenty of time (strongly disagree with the plenty of time part!). I had fertility tests right before meeting him and everything was fine - although not resting on my laurels in that respect as I know infertility can be unexplained even if everything looks ok. I suppose this was one other thing that attracted me to him too. I found it quite difficult to date in my early 30s, as I look young but when men would ask me my age or find out how old I was they would often be shocked and sometimes put off. I had lots of men make offensive comments like I might be infertile or I was too old to have kids.

You've all given me a lot to think about - thank you so much. I know I need to take action fast and decide what I am going to do.

He does have a plan for repaying them, not finish...

If his supervisor is unhappy, you have issues. The Uni will limit his time eventually, I think, as that happened with my DH & he submitted an unfinished thesis. However, he was working by then...

And yes, he doesn't want kids...mine dithered for years, I have no kids!

he's also horrified because he doesn't want the responsibility of a child

tbh he's telling you clearly who he is, you need to listen and avoid being saddled with a financial responsiblity like him. The loans sound worrying too.

gird yourself - he might suggest getting married if you say you're leaving him. I have a feeling he sees you as a potential future meal ticket - sorry.

When I found out about his financial troubles, I decided it would be stupid to marry him. So marriage is not on the cards from my perspective as although I love him I realise i have to protect myself and my future. But then I wondered if I believe someone is a bad marriage prospect, then should I even be considering having a child with them?

Hi OP,

I do think your boyfriend is telling you who he is. You love him, but you know it is a red flag. And you feel as if your arm is up your back because of your age.

I think you have more time than you think. Yes, if you break up with him now, there is a risk you won’t find a partner to mate with until it’s too late. But, actually, perhaps that is less of a risk than staying with your partner. He KNOWS you are 35 and you have been very honest about your desire for a family and a big one at that. And he knew how old you were for a long time before that, when you were 30,31,32 etc etc. He cannot be surprised that you were getting closer to urgently getting on with trying to get pregnant. It’s a bit like being surprised by Christmas.

He CANNOT pretend to be surprised that you want a family now. Yet he seems to be persisting in this and in fact, performing a perfect hand brake turn. He has misled you. After years of talking about kids, he is backtracking outrageously. I would be furious.

I speak as a mother of two who had first dc at 42 and second at 43. How can you trust him? You don’t want to be throwing ultimatums of this sort I.e ‘have a baby with me or I’m leaving you’ - it’s not really the ideal circumstances for a loving decision to start having babies, but this is where you are.

This is a deal-breaker par excellence. You have been clear and truthful on this subject all the way. He has shown himself to be slippery at best and downright misleading, at worst. You need to be clear and decisive. There isn’t much wriggle room here. Have the discussion as quickly as possible. And then make a decision.

You are not being selfish here. You have played it totally straight. You’ve also shown determination and strength getting yourself into a decent financial position and a good job. Don’t let him stall on this for any longer and don’t feel guilty for investing in your career. You have time. And choices. You just need to get going on the making those choices now. Good luck.

I strongly suggest that you search around on MN and find some of the posts where women have married men who are artists, musicians or even just running businesses that are more like hobbies.

Most of them have similar themes:

A mother working PT or FT in a regular job, but also run ragged handling the majority of childcare/family workload
Men whose creative work or intellectual work is so important that they can't tie themselves down to parenting duties, as they need to wait for the muse to appear.
Very low or irregular pay, but always being on the verge of the next big thing.
Low family income, as the mother's salary just doesn't stretch far enough. So no treats/holidays or things that they might need or want.

Sorry, I think that the only way to do this might be to use a sperm donor and just treat him as a boyfriend rather than a life partner.

See your GP as soon as you can and find out what kind of fertility support services are available locally - not having a male partner is a legitimate reason for seeking treatment. Also look at what kind of childcare/support is available locally - if you live near a children's centre with on-site nursery and a good programme of activities you will have struck gold.

You are not compatible and this relationship won’t work in the long term. Either dump him and find someone new, or if you can go it alone emotionally, practically and financially, use him as a sperm donor and then dump him. (Joking)

He's professional student, he will never get a job.

He's already doing a PHD which will not lead to a job unless he retrains as a lawyer and who's going to hire a 40+ year old who has little or no experience of the working world, university students in their early to mid twenties have a hard enough time finding work.

I think you are right at reassessing your relationship as I don't think this one will give you what you want or need.

There are too many dealbreakers in here. Just dont shackle yourself to this loser. He wont look after any children because he dislikes hard work (and having young children is VERY hard work) agree you are mismatched and you need to get out and find either a sperm donar or give dating another try. You will be stuck with him for 20+ years if you have a child together and if you marry he could take 1/2 your hard earned flat ...

living on crusts in the 7e arrondissement

Haha, have you seen the cost of renting in the 7e arrondissement?

OP some food for thought in your update. On the one hand you make him sound somewhat less flaky on the PhD front, which is slightly reassuring. On the other if he's from abroad that's quite significant, both in terms of finances and his future prospects. The academic jobs market is pretty international and you've said you're happy where you are. What happens if the only job in his field is in Singapore or somewhere? I imagine given the state of the UK uni sector and Brexit that tenured jobs in legal philosophy are not going to be ten a penny.

Apparently, law employment is very problematic, even for gifted youngsters. A law partner friend was telling me she wouldn't recommend it now to people.

He is most definitely not father material. Do you want to co-parent with him, particularly if you are no longer together? How flaky would that be?

At least, you'd be in total control with a sperm donor.

You might be struggling here as in your head, it's all nicely organised and sensible. This is good, as you have a plan.

However, he is not in your head and does not have the same vision.

The debt would concern but I think I would be more worried about the fact he doesn't really have a plan for the future. You say you have shared values but it doesn't really sound like you do. Does he want children at some point? I think you need to have some frank conversations about your future together.

Coming from a law background, I can tell you that he has next to no chance of getting a job at his age outside of academia, considering he has zero work experience. Does he have a guaranteed job at the end of the phd?

To answer your original question @123Jess, it's important if it matters to you and obviously it does.

Talk to him, see how he responds and make it clear you will both need to make some decisions based on how the talk goes.

I never understand people who seem to be the eternal student with no end career in sight. Years of debt and studying with no prospects doesn't sound like a good move.

When I met dh he was on a fairly low salary...a good 12k less than my mildest wage but it didn't worry me as he is a hard worker and also he has a fear of being in debt.
10 years later and he's now on 18k more than me and working to provide for ourc children. He stepped up and got on... it doesn't sound like your guy will.

Re Debt

My PG debt is lumped with my UG debt. But you can only get government funding for 1 masters. PhD funding is different. I haven't done a PhD so don't know specifics. Who funds their own PhD without having a stipend etc?

I mean student debt isn't the same as regular debt... I have £55k of student debt from my Ba/Ma because that's just how much it cost. Paying it back isn't much of your salary.

I'm sorry but I just find it really bizarre that you'd consider having a child with him but you were relieved him living with you was a temporary measure. He's funding his flat from these magical loans so increasing his debt further. It doesn't make sense to me

Wait.... you don't even live together but you want a baby??

@BlackPrism No he rents a property, she owns hers. They stay over each other's some nights and have some nights off. Normal in a dating world but not if you're considering this next step (IMO)

OP - re-read this thread again and again and again. Especially where posters are telling the stories of people who were once in your position now.

He doesn’t want a baby now (or ever) so don’t waste time trying to convince him. Even if you manage to do that he will hold that against you contemptuously as he has with many other things.

You will not have the happy family life you have worked hard for and deserve, with this man child. Neither will any children. It will fail eventually and in the interim there will be pain, heartache and financial loss.

Then you will be saddled with this person your whole life as he will be the father of your child.

He sounds like some disgruntled immature teenager - he won’t just be a leach and a passenger - he will continue to actively sabotage your MH and grown up lifestyle.

He is not trustworthy - he has misled you and future faked you with respect to money, career and family - pretty big stuff - indeed what else is there?

You have very different core family values that will collide when push comes to shove - you are not compatible as future partners or parents working together as a team. That’s where you both need to be pulling hard in the same direction. It will fail.

You are clearly a very bright, solvent, career focused attractive woman (young looking) - dump him and get out there to find the person you deserve for the next chapter of your life. You have 4 good years to find one one - if that doesn’t work out - go the sperm donor route at 40 (I have 3 friends who did this - they are v happy and in a much more emotionally secure family set than friends who have the dead beat Dad in tow).

Some of the words to discribe him are disrespectful of you, dismissive of your needs/desires, hypocritical, sneers, bitter, entitled, arrogant, critical of you, contemptuous, uses put downs, isolating you for your friends.....subtlety quite abusive. Why don’t your friends like him?

There is NOTHING more miserable than a bleak family life where you do all the heavy lifting whilst he gets to pontificate and indulge his limited intellectual ego. And then the inevitable breakdown or the family and sharing care for your child with him. Don’t do this to yourself or any child of yours. You know which way it will go.

Take a deep breath and take the first steps to your fab new family life.

I didn't know his financial troubles when he lived with me. It was temporary because his previous lease ran out then it takes a bit of time to find a new property. When he was living with me, I really enjoyed being together more and thought we should do it permanently. But my rational brain was also concerned about him moving into a property that I own and what rights are in that scenario (also many friends lectured me on the topic). I appreciate that it may seem irrational to consider having a child with someone you don't live with. I'd expect us to be living together if we did go on to have a child.
The other reason we live apart is that my apartment is quite far from his university (that's why I end up driving him to my place, driving him home etc). So if we did move in together we'd potentially both have to move into a place midway between his university and my work. But that's also a big upheaval.
Anyway, I think a lot of this is my hopes for the relationship versus where we actually are in reality. Talking about having a child made me realise we're not in the same place, much as I wanted us to be. So all the comments have been really helpful to help me see things clearly.

I’m sorry but I don’t think he deserves you.
His comments about your previous career are quite sneering. I am also working class and it never ceases to amaze me how these partners who are cavalier about money attach themselves to partners who are savvy, astute and hardworking.

But any adult would know when their lease was up - why had he not planned for this eventuality?

I am sure that you have good times as a couple right now - that’s the easy, kid s free but as a couple there are too many red flags to indicate that you wouldn’t survive parenthood.

You sound so warm, sensible, caring and focused. You have achieved so much career wise and financially - you have come so much further from your modest (but clearly v high values) background than he has - he is a very poor performer given the indulgent head start he had in life.