Married to someone with Asperger's? Support group here! (Thread 3)

[ChangerOfNameAspieThread]

This thread is for partners seeking to understand the dynamics of their relationship with someone with ASD. It is a support thread, and a safe space to have a bit of a rant. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
(ASD partners welcome to lurk or pop in, but please don't argue with other posters and tell them they are wrong.)

Some resources from the threads so far:
www.theneurotypical.com/effects-on-differing-nd-levels.html
www.maxineaston.co.uk/cassandra/
I've probably missed some, but will try to gather them later and put in a comment for the next thread!

Previous threads:
1st thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3281058-Is-anyone-married-to-someone-with-Aspergers
2nd thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3325419-married-to-someone-with-asperger-s-support-group-here

Hi Yenzen,

Could you direct them to the faaas website? (Families of Adults Affected By Aspergers Syndrome) Or print off any relevant pages?

Changer listed resources at the start of the thread - you could have a look through them?

Hope you’re all having good weekends. The kids & I are visiting friends. It’s been so relaxing

I am deeply uncomfortable with this thread being a source of resources about people with ASC and for those in relationship with people on the spectrum. Nor am I comfortable with the idea that posters on this thread are reliable authority and sources of advice on the matter suggested in the thread title and OP, which is a broad and general point that requires a far more balanced input rooted in the scientific, reliable insight into the condition.

This thread reflects a valid perspective and serves a needs of a particular group of people: some of those in late stages of relationship breakdown with a person on the spectrum, who self identify with a particular dynamic in their relationship.

For this reason this thread reflects a particular and unbalanced perspective of that particular group. Resources in the OP are controversial, while reliable sources of information are not referenced in OP and not discussed in the tread. This thread is not and can not be a source of advice on a broader question of relationship and marriage to people with ASC, which should involve more balanced discussion informed by a reliable insight into the condition.
It is important to recognise and flag that clearly.

National Autistic society is a good starting point for advice.

Their website has a treasure trove of reliable information and resources, including for partners.

www.autism.org.uk/about/family-life/partners.aspx

OP and other regular posters,

How about renaming the thread ?

The new title should be:
Breakdown in relationship with someone with Asperger's? Support group here!

There is a very reflective comment up thread
QueenieInFrance Sat 19-Jan-19 16:55:19
this thread, you hear about people who are struggling. The ones who aren't (like a good friend of mine who is in the spectrum and has a nice relationship with her DH) wouldn't come on here.
Not all people with autism are struggling in their relationship I don't think.
Its a particular mix that I think is particularly hard to make workable.

This is the recognition that this thread reflects a perspective and experience of a particular mix/group of people and is unsuitable for those with broader interest. This should be reflected in the title and purposes as expressed in OP.

The current name of this thread is general and thus inappropriate, it is misleading and does not represent at all the real contents of thread.

The content is potentially discriminatory and stigmatising.

The new title should be:
Breakdown in relationship with someone with Asperger's? Support group here!

Autistic people face huge number of challenges, misunderstanding, isolation, discrimination, harassment and even disability hate. There is no need to add to this by channelling a new prejudice that people on the spectrum cannot be good / suitable spouses in a happy long term relationship and that somehow they are ‘abusive’ and sole to blame for a relationship breakdown. This is false.

This thread is unbalanced. It is completely dominated, reflect the particular perspective of people whose relationship has broken, has been broken for a long while and possibly (or openly) beyond repair.

Like all relationship breakdown threads it is infused with bitterness, recrimination, incapacity to empathise with the partner and backdated revisionist perspective on everything that happened in the relationship in the past and happens at present. This is the case of many threads on Relationship board, but it is important to recognise this and separate the issue of relationship breakdown and the need for support with that from the ASD traits of the partner, which creates a prejudice.

There should also be some comment qualifying the scope and validity of theories proposed (e.g. on page 7) and advice given, none of which is rooted in, and actually fails to relate to reliable validated reputable research and psychological/neurocognitive understanding of the ASC..

This thread seem helpful to those in late stages of relationship breakdown, but imo it does more harm than good for those seeking to understand the relationship with partners with ASD and seeking support to maintain and further the relationship and marriage. It completely misses the pivotal really helpful insight to achieve these aims. Potentially it creates prejudices and barriers for autistic people to enter relationships, including for autistic children of the very posters, as Seline on page 8 highlighted.

Further on

The name of this thread is inappropriate, it is misleading and does not represent at all the real contents of thread.
The content is potentially discriminatory and stigmatising.

The new title should be:
Breakdown in relationship with someone with Asperger's? Support group here!

This thread does nothing to support the relationship, it provides no support for those who are married (as in the title) and want to maintain and improve the relationship, it offers little on how to make it work, how to improve communication, how to avoid pitfalls. (this is recognised at the bottom pf page 20 I'm going to take a break from this thread because the traits and issues I want to talk about feel minor in compared to the recent posts, and tbh I feel uncomfortable posting about ASD...)

Shockingly it offers no insight into, does not use ASD knowledge to unpick how the condition affects a relationship. Even when a trace of an insight into ASD appears on page 16, it is negated by an embittered confrontational blame passed as ‘advice’ (ChangerOfNameAspieThread Sat 26-Jan-19 15:46:29).

As said by AutisticHedgehog Sun 20-Jan-19 01:03:38 ..there is a real lack of understanding about autism on this thread
The resources referenced in the OP are controversial and unhelpful to inform the broader topic about partners and marriage with people with ASC. There are some links to other resources, but no discussion and reference to broader perspective from reliable sources of information and advice. There is nothing in the thread to actually understand and analyse the dynamics of the relationship with someone with ASD, as purported in the OP.

There is a recognition of reflecting a particular problem, but not enough to analyse it as stated in the OP:
QueenieInFrance Sat 19-Jan-19 16:55:19
Not all people with autism are struggling in their relationship I don't think.
Its a particular mix that I think is particularly hard to make workable.

In fact there is notable absence of perspectives on the dynamics, which ought to encompass both partners. Absent is reflection on posters own passive-aggressiveness, difficulties with assertiveness, empathy and communication.
The thread is filled with examples of posters failing to establish and maintain real communication with their ASD partner from the onset, failure to actually empathize and understand their ASD partner, failure of being assertive and establish boundaries and balance in their relationship. Many posters admit having difficulties with assertiveness, self-esteem, with history of upbringing in an abusive relationship of their parents, history of being previously in abusive relationships, even of BPD. These factors would invariably contribute to the dynamic of the relationship. Poor communication, inability to assert own needs and balance the relationship would lead to breakdown with a NT partner as well. It takes two to tango and posters need to take their part of responsibility for the relationship failure, but nothing of sort is happening in this thread. Instead ASD is used as lightening road, creating prejudice.

Instead it contains off the cuff advice to posters who are just starting a relationship to not even try and to walk away from ASD partners (like on page 4). We wouldn't advocate to not ever cross the road because of risk of being hit by a car, but that is what is channelled on this thread. Somehow posters' specific dysfunctional relationships should be taken as the wisdom on the subject of ASD partners in general. This is irresponsible and creates prejudice for people with ASD, that they don't deserve to have a partner and should be left in isolation...

Posters don’t have recognised qualifications in Psychology/Psychiatry/ASD to analyse the issues, and show regrettable absence of awareness about ASD and its’s central issues of theory of mind and problems with emotional understanding, yet they make sweeping generalisations that introduce confusion if not conflation of ASD with anti-social personality disorder, abuse and narcissism. This is dangerous.
ASD is used to apportion blame but not to actually understand the dynamic of interactions and seek positive improvements. i.e. many posts on page 7, 8, 9 The post [ChangerOfNameAspieThread Tue 15-Jan-19 08:58:14] does more harm than good with failing to discuss the impairment in theory of mind and emotional understanding and instead side tracking on ‘remorse’. The post [ChangerOfNameAspieThread Wed 16-Jan-19 06:50:57] lead to confusion with psychopathy. Far from ‘stopping confusing [ASD] behaviour’ with abuse [TimeIhadaNameChange Tue 15-Jan-19 10:03:11], these posts do add to the confusion and create dangerous new myths and prejudices.

Further, the thread OP even attempts to limit the expression of views that could balance the discourse and provide alternative perspectives and narratives by issuing warning to :
(ASD partners welcome to lurk or pop in, but please don't argue with other posters and tell them they are wrong.) and aggressively attacking contributions in the thread (page 8 and 9, [ThisWayDown Sat 19-Jan-19 21:54:47])
This is preposterous if the implication of the thread is the isolation and prejudice against partnering with people with a disability.

Posters have their right for validation and support in exiting their failed relationships, but it should not be allowed to be portrayed as the advice on the relationship with partners with ASD in general because of its inaccurate and prejudicial nature in relation to a protected characteristic.

The thread title should be changed.

There should also be some comment qualifying the scope and validity of theories proposed (e.g. on page 7) and advice given.

This thread seem helpful to those in late stages of relationship breakdown, but imo it does more harm than good for those seeking to understand the relationship with partners with ASD and seeking support to maintain and further the relationship and marriage. It completely misses the pivotal really helpful insight to achieve these aims. Potentially it creates prejudices and barriers for autistic people to enter relationships, including for autistic children of the very posters, as Seline on page 8 highlighted.

Where was the website we could talk privately without being kicked when we are already struggling or feeling so sad? I feel like I’m under attack and I need NT understanding and not more pressure. I married for life and while in love, I cannot believe my life is like this now. I need help and support that I don’t get in real life. Not statistics and facts.

Just for a bit of balance, I think these threads may have contributed to saving my marriage. I have in fact posted on the thread about how these threads have helped us make positive changes. I have included some of my DH’s strengths.

What has been directly and concretely eye opening and helpful includes:

The idea of intent behind the stress behaviour. I can now see that he is attempting to control his anxiety rather than me directly. I have been able to share this insight with DH who clearly had a 💡 moment himself and said it is also true of DC, “She is trying to control herself not us.”

I have better understood DH’s reluctance to host, need for down time, thrashing about in bed, my need for social activities. The list is really long...

A couple of people have commented about our own autistic children. I believe my own autistic children are very likely to have relationship problems (as most people do). I adore my children but they can be really hard to live with. They find understanding NT social rules tricky. They already need a shed load of support navigating school and work relationships. I get loads of messages saying “What does my boss/tutor/friend mean when he says..”

And just wondering how other posters can know what qualifications posters might have that are relevant? The whole point of an anonymous forum is that you can be anonymous

Moffa, I certainly understand and sympathise. Please trust I don't mean to attack and negate your feelings and perspective as you feel about your relationship. I think you need specialist support. To really analyse and untangle the issues and your feelings and to have a private space for you to deal with that.

Relationships are complex and a breakdown is always painful, the disintegration it is never easy to watch. This board is testimony to that.

This is why it is important to put your thread in the correct context, to qualify it appropriately.

You also need to respect the fact that ASD is a disability and a protected characteristic, that it is harmful to facilitate prejudices, discriminatory attitudes and aggressive emotions towards people on the spectrum as a group or individually. They are a protected characteristic in law, they need to be protected against discrimination and disability hate. They have the right to protect themselves.

Therefore, you should also recognise that it would be wrong to have a private groups that channels discriminatory attitudes. That would be as harmful as having a private group that blames black people for particular events in someone's life. The problem is in attributing complex problems and actions of particular individuals to a group.

The issues in this thread are valid and complex.

Some issues could be attributed to the ingrained and enduring patriarchal culture.
Some issue could be attributed to attitudes of a particular generation.
To issues of woman's place in society and how some women think of themselves
To issues of 'toxic masculinity'
To issues of domestic abuse and violence

To issues of what is a good communication and understanding
To issues of self insight and perspective
To issues of a dynamic of a disintegrating relationship
To issues of appropriate support for couples who need counselling and support
To issues about awareness and understanding of ASD in society
To issues of scientific research and understanding of ASD
To issues of training and awareness of marriage counselling practitioners about ASD and how to approach it
To issues of diagnosis and access to diagnosis
To issues about myth and prejudices that prevent people and families to approach ASD appropriately
To issues of men and women having ASD and knowing how it affects their relationships
To issues of support to people with ASD in terms of advice and support in their communication and relationships..

There are surely more issues that are involved and ASD as such is just a part.
It always takes two to have a relationship.

The problem with this thread is that it purports to have advice, insight and support for those in relationship with partners with ASD in general, and the reputation of Mumsnet lends probity to the advice given, while in fact I believe this thread offers no such advice and in fact is harmful, it creates a dangerous prejudice.

I have valid perspective as ell and it is this:
There is a place to discuss the exit from a failed relationship, but this thread reads at times as a ASD hate party and this should not stand unqualified on a public forum.

Heather, if only this thread had more reflective posts like yours.

Are only autistic people hard work? Are there relationships that are easy work, especially after the initial hormones and euphoria dissipate?

Ultimately, imo any successful relationship requires work on specific issues of individuals involved.

To this point,
network.autism.org.uk/knowledge/insight-opinion/double-empathy-problem
"According to the theory of the ‘double empathy problem’, these issues are not due to autistic cognition alone, but a breakdown in reciprocity and mutual understanding that can happen between people with very differing ways of experiencing the world."

GaudaofEda I disagree with you wholeheartedly.

Posters on this thread have clearly been talking about their individual and personal experiences.

I disagree that readers would assume that any of the diverse situations people are sharing could be extrapolated across all people with ASD or all relationships with people with ASD. To suggest this thread is an "ASD" hate party" doesn't make any sense to me.

The posters on the thread have valid experiences and a number of them clearly value the conversations they are having here. Trying to close down the discussion on the basis that is discriminatory is not incorrect but also controlling. This thread is not about you, and the posters on this thread deserve their space. And as you have clearly read this thread carefully you will know that not all the posters on this thread have relationships that are breaking down or that they are looking to leave.

There are surely more issues that are involved and ASD as such is just a part.
It always takes two to have a relationship

This sounds like victim blaming to me.

And Mumsnet clearly doesn't agree with your perspective on this thread otherwise they would have shut it down long ago.

I really hope your contribution doesn't prevent people from sharing their experiences and getting support.

I've not commented on this thread before but been reading for a while. I'm been married for many many many years to an man with undiagnosed hfa, sometimes happily, sometimes completely miserably, and often just cruising along companionably.

I stumbled onto this thread at a time when I had really begun to understand that dh had a condition that was never going to change, that many of his atrocious behaviours were coping strategies, and that he would never really be able to support or care for me in any emotional sense. This thread has really helped me to understand dh and to mourn the relationship I always hoped we would end up having, and move forward with my eyes wide open. In my case, I would say that reading all the experiences on here and seeing all the parallels with my own life, has saved my marriage. At the same time, I can absolutely see why some would choose to end theirs.

I now properly understand that there are specific problems and dynamics that are unique to a hfa/nt marriage, and have nodded along as others on here have clearly articulated what I was feeling and struggles that I have dealt with over the years. It's been a relief and an eye opener to see that I'm not alone.

And I think it is wrong to tell struggling spouses, most of whom are women, who are shouldering the enormous burden of dealing with someone with a socio-communication disorder, often with children who have the same condition (I have two!) and are dealing with baffling, unusual behaviour, trying to hold their families together, with no training and little to no support, that they shouldn't talk about it.

Disagreeing is fine, but this thread aggressively attacks and chases out posters with alternative perspectives and discurrages discussion. This is in the OP, on page 8 and 9. The tone of the thread is such that posters interested in reasonable discussion would not join anyway. There is no discussion and no balance on this thread.

Posters on this thread have clearly been talking about their individual and personal experiences. This is incorrect. Experiences are personal, but the title of the thread, the intention in the OP are not. There are too many posts that jump from personal experience to generalisations and even theories (some of which I mentioned above) that are ill informed and channel dangerous prejudices. There is too much snake oil in here.

It is plain to see, for example: 'I feel like I’m under attack and I need NT understanding'. The relationship breakdown is not about NT vs Aspies. This is wrong on every level. This false antagonism should not be packaged as advice and support on public forum.

The posters on the thread have valid experiences and a number of them clearly value the conversations they are having here. Trying to close down the discussion on the basis that is discriminatory is not incorrect but also controlling.
I clearly acknowledge that the perspective and support is valid. I never suggested to shut down the thread. You clearly have a problem with listening. It is part of the problem, don't blame autistic partners for that.

There are surely more issues that are involved and ASD as such is just a part.
It always takes two to have a relationship

This sounds like victim blaming to me.

I am sorry, Newround, I haven't followed closely enough. Are you a victim of a crime? If you are, this is awful. I am truly sorry. I condemn any crime. But autism and autistic people are not responsible for that crime. An individual is.

More generally, discussion and stating the obvious fact that relationship takes two is not victim blaming. It shows you have a problem with dialogue, with exchanging views, with discussion.

Many threads on MN sound like 'Ex partner hate party' or 'Cheeting husband hate party' and that's fine for 3 reasons:

1. Everybody understand the context, that they are reading about a breakdown of a particular relationship in particular circumstances and know what to expect to hear from one side in acrimonious situations
2. The ex-partner and cheating husband are anonymous, they cannot be identified; this thread identifies and implies blame on ASD.
3. ex- and cheating husband are not protected characteristics. ASD is. It is a disability with clear rights in law.

I tried to explain above why it is discriminatory and why creating and spreading dangerous prejudices about a disability is wrong.

I am sad this thread has not engaged with the arguments above. I stand by them. This thread does more harm than good for those who want support in a relationship. The posters struggle to engage with their own psychological problems and the advice offered needs to be taken with a barrel of salt by the broader public.

The name of this thread should be changed to reflect specific narrow nature of the discussion.

There should be a statement qualifying the controversial resources and advice.
Reliable resources should be added.

Well that’s three of us with relationships improved/saved.

Other posters have decided to leave which is absolutely their right. I have said before that being unhappy is a good enough reason to leave.

Like Polly I have spent years sometimes OK, sometimes abjectly miserable and sometimes just neutral plodding.

Things got much worse when I hit the menopause. I’m usually optimistic and tolerant. I suddenly became knackered and very anxious. I was suddenly unable to do the massive facilitating of everyone else’s lives.

"You might not like to hear this but NT partners of Aspies are victims."

Your statement is a dangerous discriminatory generalisation that create prejudice towards a disability.
Many marriages with black men hit the rocks, but you wouldn't post that all partners of black men are victims. You statement is equally unacceptable.

"They will always have needs that the Aspie partner cannot fulfil. "
This is true for any broken relationship.

"And I think it is wrong to tell struggling spouses, most of whom are women, who are shouldering the enormous burden of dealing with someone with a socio-communication disorder, often with children who have the same condition (I have two!) and are dealing with baffling, unusual behaviour, trying to hold their families together, with no training and little to no support, that they shouldn't talk about it."

Who told you that you shouldn't talk about it? I certainly didn't.

In fact there is plenty of talk on SN board about children for example, informed by real knowledge and reliable resources.

Tbh, right now, I couldn’t give a flying hoot if I offend anyone. Really, I will not be losing any sleep over what I’ve posted on here, nor will I justify. And if that indifference is offensive too, so be it. I won’t censor myself - do enough of that at home - im happy to leave it up to MNHQ to decide.

What’s more, I would rather poke my eyes out with a rusty fork than enter into a multiple post debate about what is wrong or right about that thinking either.

Hope you’re all ok ladies 💐

This thread does more harm than good for those who want support in a relationship

It seems you're not much good at listening either GaudaofEda. Several posters have said that this thread has provided them with support.

You bring all autistic people and autistic children, including your own and mine into this disgusting prejudice.

Have your discussion about your relationship, but if you bring autism into this, be prepared for strong scrutiny, debate and accountability..
There is no freedom to discriminate.

colouringinpro Sun 10-Feb-19 00:41:02 makes exactly my point.

It's MNHQ we're all ultimately accountable to.
If you think there's been discrimination, report posts to @MNHQ; as will I when I think there's been sockpuppeting and posting that's not in the spirit of the site.

GaudaofEda
“be prepared for strong scrutiny, debate and accountability.”

This is not an academic thesis, it’s a discussion for those at their wits end. People have every right to put forward their experiences and try to make sense of them AND to offer up anything that might help others. To adopt such a hectoring tone is upsetting and not appropriate in this context.

Hi everyone,

Hope you’re all okay.

I had a rough evening & a worse night.

Sometimes the weekends are the hardest.