DC picking on DH

[mikado1]

This is quite a worrying turn of events and I'd really appreciate some insight/views. To give some background, DH grew up with a v authoritarian father who did slap, expected perfect behaviour, parents' emotions prioritised etc. and has found the tough side of parenting tough, has been to counselling re anger and 80℅ of time is calm but other times is moody/critical/angry - a mix of these say. Tends to take normal children's behaviour personally.

Lately I notice the 2dc, also v well behaved 80℅ of time, wind him up and delight in annoying him.. I don't like it but I see dh is either v cross or permissive... It's hard to witness and obviously I step in and remind them of behaviour or simply distract them. He doesn't want to hear my view/advice and sees them completely wrong rather than my MO which is what can I do to change things . I've not heard of this before but it feels v off for some reason so said I would post for some views.

So.. update.. The following night he came home said he felt terrible, guilty etc that his behaviour has contributed to ds behaviour/attitude/anger. I told him I also felt guilty I'd let it go on, despite threats etc. I told him to do something with the regret and sort it out. Apologies if I've posted this already as a few weeks ago. Since then he's mean overall v different with DCs, though intolerant (sighs/snappy) at typical children's behaviour.

I know he is hurt by my detachment from him, I feel detached from everything at the moment, v deflated, so I apologised for hurting him, acknowledged his unhappiness with lack of physical contact but also told him I didn't know if it could improve.

Today he was openly upset and I was on way out with DC but asked him was he ok. He clearly wasn't and kept saying sorry. I stood by in case he wanted to say more and then he said 'Go, the dc are in car' so I said ok I'd see him later and we could talk. Then, complete change, how must think he's worth to treat him like that, obviously just standing there waiting for him to stop I (wrongly or rightly?) told him that was a v strange turn around from apology to attack and I'd never said such a thing.. I left then. So that's where we're at. Despite major patience now seen with dc I still here his words when ds1 gets mad and it's very upsetting.

Sorry I see I had posted about his regret. Couldn't see full post first of all.

We haven't spoken since...

There's no excuse for abuse.

Not stress at work
or a bad childhood
or a bereavement
or tiredness
or active duty/ptsd
etc

Plenty have the above and don't abuse.

He's making it really clear where he's at. You must protect your kids.

You're too kind my dear. He's not kind like you. For him it's about him being the authoritarian father. yy he got that from his dad - but so did I and I didn't do it to my kids.

It's still all about him. But you have also historically rushed to placate him like he's the child. He's the adult and he's making little children suffer because of his ego issues.

Forget the bad childhood already.

Apologies this is long

I am married to a wonderful, kind man, who was also a victim of abuse from a narcissistic, sociopathic Father. We are nc with his family and have been for years.

When I was pregnant my DH was concerned as he had no idea how to be a kind, loving Father who had fun with their dc. (His F was verbally, emotionally and psychologically abusive, as a result he had very little self esteem.) I assured him that he would be a wonderful Father, but he was terrified of repeating the behaviour of his Father. He sat me down and made me promise that if he was ever displaying abusive behaviours like his Father, I had to step in, remove our dc and tell him what he was doing. I agreed and have pulled him up when I have seen glimpses of his Father in his reactions.

I am I guess a ‘natural/ positive’ parent, although I prefer responsive, I bf and co slept and dh fully supported this and he developed a fantastic bond with our dc. Both of our dc are autistic and dh has read every book with me, gone to every course with me and supported me with implementing changes in our parenting.

He has had three lots of counselling and he realises that his Father was abusive. His confidence has soared since going nc. He had to learn to have firm boundaries but offer lots of positive praise with our dc. He is by all means not perfect, neither am I, but when he does behave unreasonably he accepts it when I take him aside and tell him he is unreasonable. Most importantly, he apologises to our dc (or me) and lets them know that he was unreasonable and then tells them that he loves them and that whilst he may have not liked their behaviour, they are great kids and very much loved. This open honesty has really helped our eldest dc, who now has a great role model on how to apologise and admit when his behaviour his unreasonable. As a result both ds and dd have very close bonds with him.

If dh was treating my dc and me the way your dh is treating you, I don’t think we would still be together. There needs to be love and respect. Your dh is not showing either to you or your dc. I think your dh is an abuser, he is using his abusive childhood to play the victim whilst emotionally, verbally and psychologically abusing you and your dc. Please start this new year differently! Be strong for your dc and leave this abusive relationship.

www.womensaid.org.uk/the-survivors-handbook/am-i-in-an-abusive-relationship/

www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/love-sex/relationships/a22660612/signs-of-emotional-abuse/

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201808/subtle-signs-emotional-abuse

This link is about signs of emotional abuse in children
www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect/emotional-abuse/emotional-abuse-signs-symptoms-effects/

This post is important
www.verywellfamily.com/what-is-emotional-child-abuse-4157502

You are a kind and capable Mother! You don’t need your dh in order to continue to be a great Mother! You don’t need your dh to support your Parents! If your dh is providing some kind of care for your parents then you can contact your local adult services at social services and ask for an assessment for care for your parents! No loving parent would want their child or grandchild to remain in an abusive relationship for their sake!

Your son is crying out to you OP! Asking if a marriage can be broken up was a very brave question for your ds to ask! Please listen to him! He is young enough that you can get him counselling and support to counteract the negative impact of the abuse he has already been subjected to! At 6 and 3 they are just babies! They should be laughing and having fun, playing with their new toys, not asking their Mother if it’s possible to divorce, because they are being terrorised by their abusive Father.

If your dh loves any of you, he would do whatever it takes to change! He would get counselling or go on parenting courses, he would read the books you have given him!

Please contact Woman’s Aid for support FIRST if you decide to leave! The most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is when the victim decides to leave! So please seek advice and support before doing this. In fact call them no matter what, they can talk through everything you have posted here

www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/helpline/

When I think of my childhood, it's with fondness. My dad, was gentle and kind.

Do you think your children will look back on their childhood in the same way?

I honestly think you should leave him. The stress of refereeing must be horrendous.

Imagine a home where the kids can run around, let off steam and be boisterous without provoking a negative reaction from anyone. That's what's known as a normal happy home. They deserve it. So do you!

I can't tell you how much this support means. I'm so far in and so instinctively a helper/pleaser, it's hard to see. I see a big typo in main post yesterday- he's overall been much better, rather than mean! In case that made it much worse.

I am going to read slowly through those links now, thank you.

Maybe both of you should go on a parenting course and marriage counselling. I know you have tried to get him to go but as it is affecting sex life and marriage is deteriorating - does he not see these as good reasons?

Sounds like you have a v different set of standards of child behaviour than him. I would expect more of the 6 year old. Maybe you need to meet in the middle and be firmer with kids and try and step in early to calm the kids down? It’s a tricky phase the kids go through when they cannot understand enough to empathise. If your DH was physically disabled and kids were running away so he couldn’t catch them would you be so lenient?

I'm reading this thread and I'm honestly kinda confused.

Is it just me?

You were shocked cos he broke a lollipop stick?

You were appalled that he roared at the kids when they were jumping on the bed whilst he was trying to make it? That he was getting upset and irate when they were running in circles around him poking him?

He shouts at them, and you think of leaving him????

Dude, your Dad may have been Gandhi but that doesnt mean your husband is abusive.

I sometimes roar at my kids. My husband occasionally roars at our kids. They can be little shits sometimes. We do the naughty step and often have to haul them kicking and screaming out to it. It works though.

It reads like hes cracking under the pressure to be eternally serene, even though your kids are behaving badly. Normally for kids, yeah, but that doesnt mean you tolerate it?

I'm surprised and impressed that you're so patient with DH. I would have exploded long ago.

You seem to be a lone voice there ElspethFlashman, but what you're saying is why it's continued for so long. We all lose it sometimes, right? Deliberately breaking the lollipop in anger was actually horrible at the time, and felt very like bullying, I'm bigger than you so I can.

I concede that yes, I probably have been more permissive than I'd like in an effort to temper things and I know that's not good but he is so reactive and extreme in response that it's hard not to but I am aware of and working on that.

He does apologise afterwards but it's often a very upsetting and over the top blow up so for me anyway, hearing him apologising is getting a bit old. Ironically he gets annoyed at ds1 for reacting like he does.. I also agree 6yo behaviour my good enough at times but I'm so aware of what's been modelled to him.. he's been absolutely great though the last few days.

Just read this thread for the first time. I was very struck by a post from a previous poster who said that the dc are probably misbehaving because of fear - they feel safer provoking a reaction rather than waiting for his anger to come out at an unspecified time.

My exh was a bit like this. I felt that I spent so much of my dcs childhood worrying about his behaviour and trying to minimise the effect on them. They didn't grow up in a relaxed and happy home unfortunately.

Men like this feel that they are somehow entitled to behave in this way.

Yeah but what level of shouting is OK with you?

Cos it seems its zero.

It also seems you're very very tolerant. Kids being kids etc. But if a child is being naughty, say it to them! The distraction technique is useful for 2 year olds cos they have little understanding. Older than that and they need to know when behaviour is completely unacceptable.

I would urge both of you to read 1,2,3 Magic. Its gentle enough for you, but gives him actual actions so he stops panicking and losing it when they act horribly to him. And gives the kids consequences.

I knew I'd be a lone voice but that's because MN is made up of people who lived in abusive homes and you get a very sympathetic based on that. But that doesnt mean its helpful.

I don't think he's abusive. He's obviously very upset. He's just struggling. And you seem to be vilifying him cos your Dad was a living Saint.

ClaireElizabethBeauchampFraser thank you, a lot in those links is so familiar. Elspeth I suppose the thing that's hitting home the most is hearing ds1 talking to ds2 the way dh does to him- screaming 'I'm talking to you!' in his face or 'You don't deserve that now'.

Elspeth, absolutely, I say it to them, don't get me wrong but I don't act like they're devil children because of it. Eg ds1 snatches toy from ds2 H: Shouting: 'Would you ever leave him alone. Give that back to him NOW! Why are you so horrible. I should have known you couldn't be kind' etc. Me : 'X was playing with that, you need to give it back to him' If a repeated problem, I talk to him outside the moment itself about why it's not ok etc. Guess who he plays up with more? (It's not me) H thinks I do nothing because he sees shouting/punishment as deserved here.

This is normal behaviour for their age. DH needs to learn to react calmly to it.

PS I'm afraid my dad is indeed a living saint but puts himself behind everyone else, to a fault, so that's not my goal!

Elspeth - mumsnet is made up of people who lived in abusive homes?? What an odd comment.

Imo it's made up from people who come from all walks of life and all types of backgrounds, many of whom haven't directly been involved in abusive situations but who try to use their understanding and life experience to help others if they can.

But he's 6. He's not a baby.

If he snatches a toy it is naughty. He can be told that clearly. At 6 he's too old for it to be unconscious. I would get very cross and tell him it was very naughty behaviour to do that and I'm not having it. No way. You do not do that. And my voice would be my Mum Voice, very severe, and penetrating. There would also be a Mum Glare.

If he kept being naughty after that, I'd say "THAT'S 1". And the glare would have a distinct warning aspect.

If it gets to 3 then it's the Naughty Step. No arguments. Sometimes it gets to 3, sometimes it doesn't.

Do you ever get cross? Tell them they're being naughty?

Yes I do get cross, I think you're judging me unfairly because cross is not a strategy of mine, simply a natural reaction at times! I don't do the naughty step and don't agree with it but I do consequences linked to the 'crime'. Surely you agree that consistent shouting in a home is not good?

Elspeth you are looking at things from the wrong angle here. These are children who've been shouted at, criticised and belittled by their dh. How is more shouting from the op going to help?

Another thing that I've noticed is that he expects the worst from ds1 and communicates that to him. This is so negative imo. Eg last night ds1 crying upstairs, I was there and ds1. He was upset because he wanted a cup of milk in bed not before bed (3yos!). Ds1 went downstairs, H said 'Why is he crying? What did you do? Did you take something from him?' So I told him what had happened.

I think there's a middle ground where you give a direct instruction, firmly but without shouting. So for the toy snatching, instead of either 'Why are you so horrible' (which is awful) or 'X was playing, you need to give it back' I would just say 'DS1, give that back' followed by 'give that back NOW' if he demurred. Not shouting, but telling him firmly what to do - nothing wrong with this for a 6 yo.

I'm sure I read somewhere (maybe 123
Magic?) that less is more when getting young kids to do what you want them to do. Both you and your DH sound relatively wordy in the way you deal with these things. So the example I remember is that if you're telling a child to put their shoes on and they're not paying attention, you go from 'X, put your shoes on now please' to 'X , shoes on' to 'shoes' to 'SHOES' because that focuses them better than either 'Why can you never do something when I tell you, I asked you to put your shoes on...' or 'Sweetheart, we need to go, it's getting late so you need to put your shoes on quickly...' Maybe this is something you could both work on? I think 123 Magic would definitely be worth getting.

Finally, your DH does sound quite negative and 'oh no, what's happened now?' in his response to anything. Maybe point out to him that assuming the worst isn't helpful.