"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi there just found this thread, I'm glad I am not the only one with a toxic family and tbh I'm quite lost about what to do next. I'm in my final year of university and have until now tried to keep my family at arms length. My DM + DF have a habit of pushing pressure on me, trapping me with words (I could ask for some salt and it'd be construed that I have an attitude and therefore hate them) and giving me impossible situations where i have to comply otherwise im threatened with being disowned (I.e. If you dont do x then im cutting you out) then they have a habit of starting arguments with me just before and during exam season. DM has a long term health condition that must understandably be painful and upsetting but I never know what im going to get when i see her. She turns around and tells me that she was forced to have me and if it wasnt for me then she would be a hot shot business woman and i've held her back, yet a few minutes later will turn around and tell me she loves me. I was recently diagnosed with Bipolar disorder (nothing is as bad as her condition)and according to her i've faked it all to get out of university exams and im that toxic ive got no friends, which is why she doesnt phone me bc i just bring her down. I left it as late as possible to come home and i financially support myself through university, but its really taking my all to not pack my bags and leave (also tied down by a work transfer). All I guess im really trying to ask is should I go NC? I'm 21, a little scared and i've got no other family really, but i cant see any other way to escape this negativity.

(sorry for the long post)

In a way I wish I hadn’t spoken out with regard to years of behaviour from my mother that was so unpredictable and involved periods of silent treatment and running down all of my friends bar one( the one whose friendship made be feel worthless). What’s so hard is that when others are around she’s as nice as pie but when I’m on my own with her her behaviour towards me is downright nasty and vindictive. I cannot for the life of me understand why a mother would treat her own daughter like this , it beggars belief. As said before it’s the influence I feel she has on my adult children that is my biggest heartache. She is lying in front of them and then when I retaliate in frustration she twists it to make others think it is me that is lying.
I’ve been suicidal on more than one occasion because of all of this. I don’t want to die but I can’t see a way out of this at times and feel distraught.
If anyone has any help with what I’m supposed to do or say to my adult children I would be grateful.
I can’t go on like this much longer.

Hi all, I've posted a while back, under a different name. I've been NC with my dm for about a year and a half now. We have recently been LC, for the sake of my kids, but it is weird. I just wanted to ask how do you feel having an emotionally abusive parent has impacted you long term? I feel I lack confidence and feel like a horrible, evil person sometimes (despite no one ever saying as much, only her when she went on her tirades or abuse at me) I also feel like I'm constantly questioning my own parenting and always feel I'm doing it all wrong. How do you become empowered again? Counseling? Self help? I feel so lost and have such low self esteem (despite doing pretty OK on the surface)

Post away SATC, you're fine!

If you were to pack your bags and leave would you have somewhere to go?

I identify with you very, very hard here. It is a scary thing to think of launching yourself out into the world without any backup. I actually stayed living at my parents during my degree because I wanted to be earning money when I left - my biggest worry was that things would go wrong, I wouldn't be able to support myself and I would have to go back and live with my parents. It took me till I was quite a bit older to own the fact that I would rather sleep rough than live with my mother but it was very freeing when I did. In any case it's highly unlikely ever to come to that for either me or you - you are getting a good education, almost finished, and you're already supporting yourself. If you want to go NC, you will be fine - the support your parents would give you would in any case come with so many strings attached that you would probably be better off without it.

I wonder if the fact that you're about to finish is what's making you think about NC now? 20 years ago I was in the same situation as you and for the first time, while my mother was having one of her rage binges, I walked away - I think knowing that you're about to become financially independent is like the light at the end of the tunnel.

I know exactly what you mean with the salt = you must hate them. My mother does that, she inspects every single action of other people to see whether there might be a slight against her, and she almost always finds one. My mother (who has never seen the inside of a psychiatrist's office) meets (IMO) all the critera for paranoid personality disorder and I wonder if the description of it might strike some chords for you as well. There's a lot of discussion on estranged adult children's forums (including here) about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, as it seems to be more common than paranoid PD, but I think they're just different aspects of the same underlying problem - people who think that everything is about them.

The "impossible situations" you talk about sound like they might be double binds. That stuff will really mess with your mental health. The trick is to realise that you're not supposed to solve the problem, you're supposed to fail - and then they can swoop in and save you/blame you for all their problems/get whatever emotional payoff it is they get from the constant conflict.

Whatever you decide to do I hope you get a bit of peace this Christmas, and please do keep talking to us, there's always someone about on the thread

Takiwatanga

How have you found low contact?. Has it been hard going and can you maintain boundaries?. You may want to actually revisit this decision because of your children. I write that because they as well as you need to be protected from your mother. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and is now not likely a good grandparent to your kids either. Toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparents as well. You would also never dream of treating your own children in the ways you were yourself treated as a child.

It is not your fault she is like this, you did not make her that way.

FOUND YOU! I'm going to catch up on this thread now. I've just had my parents come to stay FOR THEEE WHOLE WEEKS so I'm in need of a lie down...

Attila, NC with the kids is something I'll consider eventually, however at present I'm still getting to grips with the guilt and shame of NC myself. I need to grt to a stronger place within to really push for NC with the kids. She sees them a few times a year for short visits and lavishes them with gifts and stuff so it's hardly within the same context of the relationship I had with her. It's all so very complex this stuff, isn't it...

As for LC, it's been tricky. Face to face was painful, but very brief. However texting has been confusing and I found myself getting riled up by her response to a question I'd asked, and then berating myself for even asking in the first place! I should have known better than to ask for her opinion on anyhhing 🙄

Thank you @toomuchtooold its a weight off just discussing it with persons that have been through the same sort of things. I think i'm attempting to brave NC because I found a DP and it was upon spending time with his family that I kinda thought 'whoa is this what it is supposed to be like :S'. I think the main reason for going NC is that DM starts playing her games right before exam season begins, like rn she is insistent that she is going to die from this health condition (she has to go in for an op and some IV antibiotics) and has set about writing her will and going to great detail telling me about her funeral and how my DB actually needs her and needs love unlike me. Oh and I am being coerced by both parents to stay home and not follow through with my new year plans, you probably think i'm super selfish but they pulled this last month, with the dying duck act and I took a week of unpaid and university leave, to be met with a DM in good spirits and £150 less in my paycheck this month (seems a small amount but I'm a student on minimum wage).

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but they also live way beyond their means. Like 1400 a month for food for the 3 of them, countless parcels arriving etc, then i am told they are hard up for money. I just dont understand it.

She had a rage at me the day before yesterday, spouting all sorts of vile things and its just sort of clicked in my head (for the first time) that I don't need to listen to any of this. By the same token, I think i've reached the same position that you yourself had done years ago - I'd sooner sleep rough than go back to my parents. Just feels slightly surreal that i will graduate without them, but I know good things are coming. Thanks for giving me the strength to get through xmas

Oh my God, you mean, hold on, there are OTHER mum's like mine?!

I could write a book on how my mother has treated me. Sadly I internalised all the hate and criticism I had growing up and I'm just starting to unpick it all now.

My DH has been wonderful helping me see how bonkers my mum is - to me, she's normal, but I've been so wrong to facilitate her behaviour.

No more.

My new mantra: I am not responsible for my mother.

Repeat. Keep repeating.

Finally my self esteem, for the first time in my life, is improving, rather than Being chipped away by her toxicness.

Taki

It does not sound like low contact is working out all that well either. Often too low contact leads to no contact.

She could well be buying your kids affections through gifts and such are never ever given without a whole heap of obligation and control attached to them. I would be very wary about any of you actually seeing her at all going forward. She is also getting back at you by doing that, it’s her saying I can give them stuff.

Going no contact is not shameful or should not be, it’s basically drawing a line and saying no more to being abused. Please do not ever feel guilty here, do you think your mother feels guilt?. Not a bit of it. Do read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward as a starting point.

Taki

Self preservation is what it is all about here. None of you are emotionally safe around your mother. Protect your kids from her malign influences.

Thank you Attila, I shall have a read of the book.

All kinds, yep, yep there is! Welcome aboard. I've just rejoined this chat and have found it so helpful again, already!

Belle the trouble is, you're sort of fighting with one hand behind your back because you're trying to be honest with your mother in order to improve your relationship while your mother is saying whatever she can to paint you in a bad light while making herself look like the injured party. My sincere advice to you is to drop the rope on this one. I know how frustrating it is to think that your mother is getting away with badmouthing you but she's rigged it so that the more you talk about it and lose your cool the more you sound like the unreasonable one. I don't know in your case, but I know with my own mother, that she spent years making me out to the extended family to be this highly strung, mentally unstable tortured genius type who was impossible to live with. (A lot of our family live abroad and when I once went to visit them they were all like "wow, you seem so...normal" and I managed to get the truth out of a couple of the cousins eventually when we were all a bit drunk) When you then come saying that she's abusive, getting angry with her, then people find it hard to change their long held view that you're "a bit difficult" or "you've always had something against your mother" or whatever and it's far easier for them to interpret your behaviour as proof of your awkwardness than it is for them to do a 180 and consider that you might be telling the truth.

It sounds like your mother has a great deal of knowledge about your life and lots of opportunities to comment on it and if I were you I would work to cut this right back, as that is something that you can do yourself without having to rely on anyone else. Don't be on your own with her, in fact don't be around her at all. Ask your children not to tell you what she's been saying, and don't say bad things about her to them. As well as not being constantly traumatised by this stream of shite coming from your mother, you'll also look like the dignified one to your kids, and if you don't engage it will make it easier for them to realise where all the drama is coming from.

I don't really understand why they act like this, our parents - I do a bit, and it's not pretty. In their own families of origin they never experienced love, and they never learned that they are not the centre of the universe, nor are they perfect, and that that's OK - and so whenever something is wrong in their life they need someone to blame for it. And then they have children, and their children are attached to them, don't know how to do anything when they are born, and they can't get away from them. We are the perfect victims. Singinglily wrote an excellent post about this upthread - Thursday, 11:07:19 - and it's hard reading but it might help. They shouldn't treat us like this but they do, it's not our fault, and you have to realise that they don't have our best interests at heart or you're just going to break yourself going back time and again hoping for a change in behaviour, an apology, contrition, and just getting more abuse.

Sorry I saw the response to my post and then forgot to respond.

I am an incredibly safe distance about 300 miles. I never call her and she seems to call every 6 months usually around birthday or Christmas.

My mother infact remarried my stepfather six years ago and asked me to be bridesmaid. I didn't attend. She then refused to come to my own wedding because, I made it clear he wasn't invited.

I am honestly beginning to realise whilst the abuse has had a devasting effect on my life , my mental health and the fact because of this I lost my children to adoption this year my mother's behaviour is almost as harmful.

And also my siblings collusion with it all.

I had a good long chat with my DM today and she says she’s leaving him. The thought of the fallout from this is going round and round in my head tonight. He’ll want to drag me into it, try to manipulate me into feeling sorry for him, get angry, abusive, sad etc. She says she’s telling him next week.
A small part of me feels sorry for him because despite his toxic cruel behaviour I don’t think he’ll manage on his own. And I still love him, he’s my DF after all.
Tonight I’m feel like I’m having some sort of anxiety attack. My heart is racing, I feel hot and shaky. They’re all coming to me tomorrow. I want to take him to one side and tell him what his behaviour is leading to. I think he genuinely has no idea DM is considering this. I feel sick

I’ve never felt like this before. I of course won’t say anything. It’s for DM to sort out. I just feel dreadful. I’ve never suffered from anxiety or panic attacks or anything before

JK don't whatever you do tell your father. He's been abusive and controlling to your mother since you can remember. If you tell him now that your mother is planning to leave, I think the chances of him having a road to Damascus moment are very small. But what is far more likely to happen is that he will do everything to sabotage your mother's attempts to leave, and he will ramp the abuse and control right up. You have to let your mother choose her moment. Imagine she changed her mind, or decided to wait a few months? Her life with him would then be unbearable. You have to process your feelings about this away from your parents - are they coming for Christmas? Make sure you have escape routes, get your DH to intervene to change the subject, do lots of stuff that gets you all out of the house, spend ages preparing stuff in the kitchen. It is hard, no question. But having it out with him won't help IMO.

@toomuchtooold you’re right of course. I’m staying out of it. They’re coming here for a few hours today. I’m going there for Xmas day but I’m driving so can leave when I’ve had enough. I’ve calmed down a bit today. He won’t have a Damascus moment al all, very true. I can’t believe it’s taken me 43 years to realise how bad he actually is!! He did seem better for quite a long time but he’s as bad now as he was when I was young as it’s been ramping up for a few years, I see that now. I think it’s his treatment of my brother that has triggered me into opening my eyes. Possibly that’s what has finally made my DM make a decision too. It might have been an idea to protect me from his behaviour when I was a child but I can’t even begin to try to process that right now. One step at a time right 😞

Yeah JK one step at a time. It's all pretty world-changing stuff, but IME, once it all sort of washes through you, you see the whole dysfunctional pattern very clearly and it's hard to imagine that it once looked complicated and difficult to fathom.

darkriver that's so sad, I'm really sorry. It's hard to know what to say to you really, as the abuse has had such a profound impact on your life. Are you getting help for your mental health issues? I do hope that all of these people are out of your life or at least at arms' length, so that if nothing else they don't get to do any more damage.

JK One of the first things you said was that you’ve pandered to him. I think you feel like telling him because part of you feels like his emotions are your responsibility, but they are not.

You seem trapped right in the middle here, your mum has told you something that you know will cause a blow up and your default mode is to control/manage situations to avoid blow ups. I would suggest that for the sake of your own health that you remove yourself from the situation completely, at least until after she’s told him. Fake illness if you have to, vomiting bugs are rife this year and extremely contagious.

I do feel for you as my mum conditioned me to pander to her, I was responsible for managing her emotions from being a child upwards. I wouldn’t have been able to be in the company of my mum if I was aware she was going to be told something that would set her off, I’d have gone to pieces mentally. People who have been brought up to pander to their parents may be adept at hiding their own wants and needs but hiding things from parents feels like too big of a ‘lie’. I’d seriously consider avoiding putting yourself in that position.

SingingLily your post from Thursday struck chords and warmed my heart. Thank you

@NoraButty that’s interesting words. I DO feel responsible for his emotions. Completely responsible. I understand I have to extract myself from that. My DM will do whatever she is going to do I suppose, it’s their marriage and their problem.
Even IF and at the moment I think it’s a big ‘if’, she decides to leave him, he won’t accept that his behaviour is responsible for this. He just can’t/won’t see it at all. It’s odd because I wonder if it’s subconscious but then he’ll do something and I’ll realise it’s not, at all.

JK I feel managing other’s emotions is a learned behaviour, it’s probably some sort of a relative to a survival technique. It’s learned in the same way as you learned not to touch a hot stove or to sip hot tea rather than gulp.

When I realised what my role in all my families mess was I also realised I’d been managing other people’s behaviours too, not to the same extent, but for example I was known to diffuse arguments at work as I could pacify both sides. I would also become unwittingly and unwilling involved in other people’s dramas as they would come to me to unload and walk away feeling better. I stopped doing ALL of this when I realised it’s not my job to fix people.

Toomuch is right when she says it’s world changing stuff, your upbringing will have had an effect on all relationships, not just the ones that appear obvious right now. It’s not your job to fix people and you can’t be responsible for other people’s emotions. In general, as long as you’re in a good enough place yourself you can offer sympathy, empathy, a shoulder to cry on, practical advice but you can’t stop anything from happening and you can’t take away people’s pain or take it on as your own, it’s not possible. Trying to is draining, anxiety inducing and the slow road to failure/blame.

I sound depressing but learning and realising all this stuff is actually quite freeing. Yes it’s shit that you can get to your 40’s before things even start to make sense but on the other hand freeing yourself from those years of burden can feel indescribably good. It’s possible to do/not do all this stuff but still be true to you, a truer you even.

If I post a pic of my mothers message today on here, will you tell me what you think?