"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Yes Mozzchops

This is the worst Christmas ever!!!

Me & dd have fallen out and now my mothers upped her game 🙄
I feel like sitting alone with large bottle of anything

Looking for a bit of help and direction. I posted a few weeks ago and my mother has ramped things up again.

Basically my brother and family are home for Xmas and they were due to come to DS's Xmas play. I misread the note (working full time, just finished kitchen extension and life being busy). So I messaged them at 9.50am to say the play was at 11am (not 11.30am) and did any one want a lift (bearing in mind they are usually up at 7am). Turns out brother and SIL were hungover because they'd been to my sisters house the night before. So it was a bit of a rush but they were fine.

Then my mother wades in with a text saying good job I messaged them or they would have turned up when it was over. I replied and said that's why I sent you a message to let you know the time in advance. Her response was 'whatever!'

She timed this exchange on the day the whole family was going away for the weekend so for the weekend away I avoided interacting with her.

I knew she would try and get H on her side and I was right as she messaged him on Thursday saying she was concerned for my mental health, that my reaction was OTT and I was acting irrationally. She also said I'd stopped communicating with people and I was cold to everyone last weekend. Now last weekend she was the only one I avoided, I went shopping with SIL etc and had a night out on Fri night with both my siblings and in-laws. H did stick up for me and say there is nothing wrong with my mental health. He suggested they met up as he is disgusted with her but she refused.

H put pressure on me to go to their house yesterday to smooth things over as everyone is planned to come to ours Xmas Day and he was worried she was starting a smear campaign against me. So I called over with the kids to give them their Xmas card and she stayed in the other room the whole time while I spoke with brother and SIL.

I really want to tell her what I think but don't want to ruin Xmas Day or my brothers time at home. Brother was a bit cool with me yesterday so I think she may have gotten to him.

Any tips on how to survive her?

What is the background to that message Mozzchops?

Narcissistic, virtually NC for last 2 years
She now has breast cancer

Mozzchops Gosh, no wonder you feel like necking some hard stuff.

I believe ‘I don’t know you anymore’ pretty much equates to ‘I don’t know how to control you anymore’. Overall though, it’s coming across as though she’s the director in the story of her life and you’re not playing your roles ‘correctly’ so you’re getting a bit of a telling reminder with a generous splash of underhand emotional/psychological manipulation. I also believe cards are very valuable to dysfunctional people as they are hard evidence that someone cares, it’s almost like an official declaration, it is also something to parade and show off.

Oh yes it's very much about control
I particularly like the 'I have to sell my property'. That's because she spent all the money left in my fathers will, then took all the equity out of her house and spent all that too

Mozzchops she's certainly putting everything back on you. She is taking no responsibility for anything. Sorry have no real advice I'm trying to deal with my own mother but I do understand how you're feeling

Thank you and sending

I just feel mean and heartless but I can't give her any of me, she's like a dementor, she will suck the life out of me

@MosschopsThirty

If your mother is anything like mine, it's an act. Since I stopped having any contact with M, there have been two dramatic attempts to draw me back and neither have worked. Estrangement, of course, does not fit with the image of the perfect mother or the perfect family so visible proof of family devotion, such as cards, becomes even more important - just as NoraButty says.

I also think there is something in what Nora says about your mother being the director in the story of her life. You see, before the scales fell from my eyes, I once made the mistake of confiding my deepest worries and fears to my mother when my DH had aggressive cancer and equally aggressive chemo some years ago. She encouraged me to. It was a time when I was so vulnerable and it seemed as though she was finally being the mother I needed, but at the same time, there was a suggestion of something else that I was vaguely aware of, something not quite right but I couldn't quite put my finger on. Since then, it has become only too clear what it was. She was revelling in the drama of it all. It must have been like watching her own personal soap opera. My DH was so ill that he lost four stones and all of his hair, and I was desperately upset, yet it was little more than entertainment to her. And since then? She actually told him later that he had been "malingering" and "lots of people have cancer and get over it", in exactly the same tone as someone might use when talking about a bad cold.

Making the decision to go NC is not easy. There is a lot of pain involved. Nonetheless, you made that decision two years ago and although I confess to not knowing the background, it's not a decision you would have made lightly. You had your reasons. If you went back on it now, what if anything would change?

NK

I'd stopped communicating with people

Oh god, those people. Those are the same people in the everyone of "everyone thinks x..." actually nobody but the tiresome narcissist trying to make themselves sound like someone else agrees with them. Donald Trump did it this weekend in one of his tweets: "I won an election, said to be one of the greatest of all time" - said by whom? Nobody but him. I think they feel like (as they are at the centre of the universe) if they feel something, then everyone must agree or else they are enemies, you know?

Anyway... I think you're right that there's not a lot you can say to your mother that will make this better. You had like, the most minor of disagreements with her and then she goes and texts your DH about your mental health? Behind your back? That's crazy. That's the thing. The disagreements can be so small, but it's the way they escalate straight to Defcon one. If you talk to her about it, either you're going to tell her the truth, in which case she'll be gunning for you, or you'll end up bloody apologising or something to smooth it over, and then she'll be encouraged to do more of the same. What's your DH's opinion of all this stuff generally? He seems more proactive in getting involved in this stuff than the average bloke (I may be misjudging this though as my DH, lost child in his own family, has a talent for completely ignoring atmospheres and passive aggression) and I just wondered if there's any backstory? Would your mother have any expectation that her text to your DH would have cut any ice?

My tip on surviving Christmas is to plant a big smile on your face and treat any of her nonsense as the joke that it so clearly should be. And don't invite her next year!

Yes I am in long term therapy. It's difficult a lot of people don't know what to say and that's understandable.

toomuch thanks for your response. Myself and H split up for a short time earlier on in the year and she took his side. When I told her there had been sporadic DV over the yrs her response was it couldn't be that bad or I wouldn't leave the kids with him. When things weren't going well she would get him on side so they were all against me.

I was put under immense pressure to give things another go with H (My father stopped talking to me, my mother and sister fell out with me). Ironically we are getting on better now but he can see through her and her behaviour disgusts him. He can't figure out why she would take his side on everything.

My parents turned up at our house a few hours ago, fortunately I was in the bedroom so when the doorbell rang I was able to see who it was without going to the door. I didn’t answer, they rang the bell twice, I told my OH and grown up son that I don’t want to see them, they both said they’d ignore the door then, which felt nice as they didn’t have to do that.

A bit later the door went again but it was our neighbour, my parents had left some Christmas gifts and my birthday present (it’s in January) for her to pass on. My first reaction was relief, fantastic, this means they’re not coming back . We’ve opened the gifts, as usual the one for my OH is expensive and well thought out and tailored to his exact likes, my son’s and mine are cheap bottles of plonk from Lidl. No card, let alone one addressed to husband and wife, so still no acknowledgement that we got married.

It didn’t feel good or right hiding from my parents and my OH and son being brought into the dysfunction I felt was awful, although they didn’t seem to mind. I’m glad I did hide though, as hard and as uncomfortable as it was, I still can’t face them. They’ve hurt me beyond repair and at the risk of sounding ungrateful a cheap bottle of wine just adds insult to injury. I sound awful saying that, it’s just my son doesn’t drink booze and although I do if they knew me at all they’d know I don’t drink red wine as it makes me ill. I think it’s a thing only others going through the same thing will understand though, to people who arnt it will look as though I’m being petty.

Anyway, it’s done now. It doesn’t look like they’re planning on coming back so I’m counting myself lucky.

Not sure of your back story Nora but glad you're feeling okay after that, it can't have been easy

Hahaha this is hilarious. I've already started my annual Christmas selfharm (and wore my scars proudly to dinner out on Friday), to find out that my DD and DP have arranged for us to go out for birthday lunch on Boxing Day followed by a trip to my darling parents, where DB and his wife will be.

I can't even get utterly bladdered at the meal as I'm driving. All bet are off for when we get home and tomorrow though.

I hope everyone has a good Christmas, I will be thinking of you all over the next few days. I'll try not to post once I'm pissed but no promises

Oh @MozzchopsThirty this is typical and from "The Narcissist's Playbook". You're responsible for everything, you probably even gave her cancer too. Any childhood issues were your fault completely... My brother has started his usual tirade how I'm responsible for tearing the family apart, for acting up as a child etc etc. It's really common to buy in to it too, second guess yourself that surely they must be right. It's all to make you, often subconsciously, erode your inner strength, and bollocks. Massive hugs for you x

Poppingin for a little advice. I emailed my dad about a week ago and got a lotnof things off my chest after a pretty vile weekend of him staying at mine and shouting at me in front of dd. I froze and stayed quiet but dd stood up for me which was amazing but alsoheartbreakong (she is 7). After that I took a couple of days to regroup and emailed him about a lot of things from the past that I'd never mentioned before. Basically my mum was an alcoholic and they divorced when he became violent and I was left to live with her until she had a breakdown and I was sent to school. It was agreed at that time he couldn't look after me. My mum died when I was 21 and he nearly alienated me at the time by being almost gleeful and probing me about her shortcomings (I was a very stoic child and never shared what one parent did to the other). I felt terrible for telling him things over wine about her but I never mentioned his shortcomings. That all changed last week and I let rip. Long story short I asked him 4 times to come for Christmas after he said he would not be coming. Today at 3.30pm he calls and dramatically said he would in fact be coming tomorrow.he sounded sad and quiet and breathy as if it pained him to come and hung off. So...he's spent a lot of the week sulking and asking why I haven't given him any approval (I highlighted the fact I'd never had any from him for anything in my email) so he's made it all about him. I am glad he is coming but wary that he will be sulking and moaning and generally acting like a toddler. I've not got much food in and I'm sure he will comment on that (that I will be expecting him to buy it obviously!). How can I make sure he doesn't take over with a "woe is me"? To be fair to him he has suggested we have relationship counselling as "we have diametrically opposed ideas of the past". I do want that because he clearly didn't understand that my message was a bit of a cry for acknowledgement, not the "spiteful attack" he has taken it as.

@SimplySteve thank you for such a lovely post
Both my mother and my daughter at it now 🙄
I wish it wasn't Xmas and I could see my counsellor, I'd feel stronger and better prepared
Xmas is always such a difficult time and I hate it

Sending hugs to all of us suffering at this shitty time of year

I’m broken tonight. After a few weeks of coming to terms with how manipulative and emotionally abusive my DF is, he’s been here today and he’s been ok. I love him. I don’t want to go LC with him. What do I do? When he’s not being bad he’s absolutely lovely, but when he’s bad he’s terrible. Why can’t he be the lovely him all the time??? I feel torn in two

Although I’m sobbing tonight because he can’t be normal all the time. I love him 😞

@MozzchopsThirty Is your mother in contact with your daughter? It's remarkably easy, with the advent of modern technology, for this to happen without your knowledge. I would, sadly, say that it is, that your mother is portraying it as "their little secret" whilst proclaiming you're a shit daughter who doesn't help when she has cancer and various utterly untrue things while ignoring/masking the issues she's caused you. She is using your daughter as a convenient method to hurt, and ultimately try to destroy, you. Slightly different scenario - my DS' father used the internet to attempt to destroy me and his mum, for his own ends. Something that went on for almost a year without our knowledge. My personal childhood abuse, and issues, are strewn over these SH threads, just search my username if you have a few days to spare!

Do you have any siblings? If so, how is both your mothers behaviour towards them, and their behaviour towards you?

You need to think that it's your mother talking via your daughter, and go back to basics in re-establishing your bond (it's still there, it's just hidden thanks to mother). I found with DD, as did DP with DS, that expressing our experiences (obviously in age appropriate language/ways) were key, although it's important not to instigate blame, even though blame is very apparent and strong for all of us who've undergone adverse experiences with a parent.

Oh @JK1773 , the turmoil you're feeling is palpable. I'll apologise as I've only read your last two posts, but felt compelled to respond. You've made an important recognition your father is manipulating you, and emotionally abusive. Sadly, with the greatest of respect, his "normality" and "being lovely" are manipulatory switches he is using to control you, and make you question yourself. You don't want to go LC because of these switches, something he would've picked up on I guarantee.

In my experiences, and I know so very well how difficult it can be - my own pain will exacerbate a million-fold on Boxing Day - LC (at a minimum, NC is far better) is essential to begin to heal. Just know that each contact is an opportunity for the abuser, and make no mistake this is abuse, to re-affirm their control.

Massive hugs for you.

Thank you to all that replied
I’m lucky in that I have a great therapist whose wisdom and support has kept me going.
One of the things she has said is the fact that it is my mother who has a problem and for me to be around her is just feeding her and giving her more opportunity to be nasty when no one else is looking. By being defensive when she pushes my buttons just plays right into her lap and so it goes on.
The very best thing at the moment is self preservation and surround yourself with positive people who believe in you.
I am hopeful that in time,one of my adult children who is currently being influenced by her will one day soon realise that she is in fact not the lovely person she portrays to them. As someone wisely pointed out she’s not a good grandmother as is treating her own daughter ( my children’s mother) appallingly.
I also know that the fact that all of us on this thread are feeling the effects of this type of behaviour is evidence that it is not our fault. Narcissists have no capacity to think for a minute it is their behaviour that is so vile. They simply don’t care.

Sending best wishes to all those struggling at present and let’s hope 2019 is a better year.

Thank you NK. I feel better today, even though it wasn’t nice I feel I did the right thing not answering the door to them. I proper garbled when I typed my post yesterday, it made sense at the time but today it’s like a shambles of unnecessary detail.

I think that as my parents left the gifts with my neighbours that according to her book of rules it’s now up to me to contact her to say thank you. Not doing so will be rude and ungrateful etc. I really can’t care anymore though, I’ve realised that absolutely whatever I do is wrong or not good enough so there’s no point even trying, she’s perpetually disappointed in me. I think I can be okay with knowing that.