"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

PS I couldn't really begin to address my anger and upset at my M until after I had processed my anger & hurt with my F.

After reading all the posts of the last few days - and I send my kindest thought to you all, especially at this emotive time of year - I thought I'd post this in the hope that it might helpful, but if it isn't, please just disregard.

I spent (or rather, wasted) years and years trying to be the best daughter ever in the hope that my care and devotion might earn me a few crumbs of the affection I craved from my parents. Sometimes, it seemed to work but all too often my efforts were either subtly undermined or openly dismissed by M, while F stood by looking sorrowful and wistful, as if he didn't like what he saw but had no control over it. I turned myself inside-out, tied myself up in knots, trying to find the key that would finally unlock a mother's love for me.

It would take a post the length of War and Peace to tell you the snubs I calmly endured, the game-playing I patiently coped with, the bouts of undeserved and illogical hostility I met with tolerance and forbearance. For years, I did the equivalent of tiptoeing through a minefield with a blindfold on, trying to work out The Rules and hoping for the best.

It all made no difference. No. Difference. Whatsoever.

My mother doesn't love me. Never has. Never will. I am either "useful" to her or "not useful" and this determines how she behaves towards me. How she behaves towards everyone, including my poor deluded father who now actively assists her in her malevolence and manipulation.

Once I understood this - and the signs had been there, all of my life, if only I had cared to open my eyes and see them - then everything slotted into place and I became calmer. There is absolutely no point whatsoever in chasing something that never existed in the first place.

Is my mother a narcissist? I'm neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist, but in my career, I dealt with many many people with MH problems as well as those with personality disorders. (This is partly why I feel so stupid about not having joined the dots sooner in relation to my own mother. I know how personality-disordered people behave. I even knew how to manage them).

My DSis's view is that M has an undiagnosed mental illness; she favours bipolar as the explanation. I think M is an undiagnosed covert narcissist but from what I've read, there is a great deal of crossover between the two. It's even possible to be both. On balance, I'd rather DSis was right and M was bipolar because it's a MH condition, therefore manageable with the right help and so offers some hope that things could change, whereas a personality disorder is untreatable. A lost cause. But - and this is where DSis and I do agree - it's all academic anyway. M would never accept in a million years that there was anything wrong with her. It's everyone else who is out of step. She is what she is. It's the rest of the family who struggle with the consequences.

The adult me keeps pointing out that M cannot help being the way she is. It is probably the result of her own upbringing. Some of it I know about and some, well, I've had my suspicions for a long time. So I should feel sympathy for her, right? Except I don't. She stored up rage about whatever happened in her own childhood and then took it out on me (and later my DSis) when we were defenceless children, whereas I've never taken my anger about my upbringing out on anyone. Well, apart from myself. I decided, when I was about 12, that I would never have children because I didn't want any child of mine to have the same miserable and lonely existence I'd had. So conditioned was I that it never occurred to me that misery is neither normal nor inevitable.

So, for what it's worth, here is my advice. Stop chasing the dream. Accept that you are neither the cause nor the cure for what is happening. Accept that you cannot change it. Distance yourself from what is going on. Be yourself and be kind to yourself. Do whatever is necessary to protect your mental and emotional wellbeing and - if you are lucky enough to be a parent - above all, protect your children. Only by doing so can you break the cycle and stop the damage from reaching the next generation.

And when things get wobbly or when you feel you need a little support or a confidence boost, there is the lifesaver of a thread, with people who understand.

to all of you.

I have just found this thread.
I am a 30 year old woman who was emotionally and sexually abused as a child. I told my mum when I was 17 what was going on and she refuses to believe me.

Even now when I speak to my mum I still feel that very young child who is screaming out for the care I never got.

Sorry pressed send to soon. My SF was my abuser and I believe she facilited some of it.

I have never had the strength to go NC but, everyone tells me I should.

darkriver

I believe you and would urge you to contact NAPAC if you have not already done so. They could help you, this is their link:-

napac.org.uk/

How often do you see your mother these days, is she and sf still together?.

With best wishes

SingingLily

Your post I feel was written truly from the heart and is also a post that should frankly be in the MN classics section. It's true home is here.

Your advice is spot on.

to you

@SingingLily such strong words. I need to find your courage and determination

Currently experiencing my DH dealing with the fallout of trying to get his parents to realise their abusive behaviour. They’ve had a session altogether with a therapist, DH has had one on his own, and also a couple of cathartic phonecalls where he’s basically yelled out exactly how he feels to his mum (about her gaslighting, victim-playing, and emotionally abusive behaviour especially when he was a child – eg yelling, threatening, putting him in no-win situations). His dad’s role’s basically been as the enabler – backing her up, telling him he should be grateful for everything they’ve done etc.

Until about 6 weeks ago we’d seen his parents most weeks if they were around (they live very near), but have seen very little of them since. We have 2 DCs who are used to seeing them, though TBH prefer spending time with my parents (they have said as much) in which context things are always much more relaxed, with no drama and no MIL fussing about them making a mess, suggesting my DD should be more girly etc.

I have told DH that they will not change and all he can change is his own responses to them but I fear he sees this as being about being meek or accepting it, which it’s not – to my mind it’s more about ‘What’s that buzzing noise? Oh! It’s you criticising my life choices! Fancy that!’

I don’t think NC is a realistic or desirable for anyone given our proximity and mutual communities we move within, but I think we could cut down on it and put ourselves in control of it (rather than being ‘expected’) for the future and for DHs (and possibly DCs’) wellbeing

Hi Echobelly

His parents will never accept that they are abusive towards him and in turn you and your own family unit. Therapy with such people is a waste of both time and effort; they do not want to know and its not going to work. Such people like his parents truly never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Please tell me that your H has not actually sat in on a therapy session with them!. Oh my word if this is so because this was a huge error. Any further sessions with them present should be cancelled immediately.

I would also report the therapist to their governing body (if they are for instance BACP registered) because your H was never in any position at all or was infact safe enough to actually sit with them. This has harmed your DH a great deal and you are copping the fallout from that too.

Your DH needs therapy on his own to work through his own fear, obligation and guilt re his parents because his FOG is harming his own self as well as you people.

Where are your boundaries here with regards to his parents?.

Re your comment:-
"I don’t think NC is a realistic or desirable for anyone given our proximity and mutual communities we move within "but I think we could cut down on it and put ourselves in control of it (rather than being ‘expected’) for the future and for DHs (and possibly DCs’) wellbeing"

Why not re no contact not being realistic here?. Examine your reasons for this far more carefully because what you write is not good enough reason at all. I would look into moving house; you need mental as well as physical distance here. Sod the community you move in and or what other people think; this is the wellbeing of your family unit at stake and this is far more important.

What does your DH think about further lowering all forms of contact?

These people were not good parents to your H when he was growing up and they are a poor example of grandparents to your kids also. Toxic parents more often than not become toxic as grandparent figures and I would also think his mother in particular has either over valued or under valued the relationship with your kids. She may even have a favourite one but there is really no interactions here. Its like watching a re-run of a tv show you have always hated. No wonder they are not bothered with them much if at all. These young people rely on your good judgement and you both need to protect them from such malign influences.

I know they won't accept they are abusive, but there you go, I've told him it's unrealistic to expect.

They did have a session together (I told him this is not advised), they were a bit defensive but not awful from what I gathered.

DH desperately wants to avoid NC, to him the ultimate aim is to avoid that at all costs. I'll be honest and say that DH would agree they don't merit leaving our home, moving kids' schools, leaving a religious community we love and that has very few parallels , and proximity to my supportive family and my mother who is not going to live to see the kids grow up. I do believe that setting more boundaries with them is an option and they would be capable of accepting that. We don't believe MIL is a narcissist, but do think she has depression and anxiety she's never dealt with.

Hi Echobelly

There should be no more joint sessions; nothing ever good comes of having those with abusive parents. It will not work and will perhaps only serve to make him feel even worse than he does now. No decent therapist worth their time would ever want to see the three of them in the same room. Clearly this person who is seeing the three of them does not at all understand the dynamics of abuse here.

Your H seems well mired in his own fear, obligation and guilt and his own inertia too when it comes to them simply hurts him as well as you people, his own family unit. Why is he also so very fearful of no contact; is that because he at heart thinks his parents actions are his fault?. What does he want from his parents?. An apology; that will not be meant. Such people like his parents do not apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

How supportive would your community be towards you if you had no further contact with his parents?. I fail to see what good if any these people bring into your lives and your children are not bothered with them for good reason either.

Its not your fault or his that these people are the ways they are (their own families did that to them). Abusive people are not emotionally healthy nor happy either but having depression and anxiety is not in any way a hall pass for treating him and in turn you in the ways you have been. She may well state there is nothing wrong with her and is not depressed or anxious at all (you assume she is depressed and anxious but you may be wrong here). There is no justification or excuse for their abuses of you and more likely than not she may well have some form of untreated, and untreatable, personality disorder.

Many people as well have awful childhoods and do not choose to act as they have done towards him. Her husband is truly her enabler and such women always but always need a willing enabler to help them. She has got this in his dad and he should not be let off at all either. Both of them have failed utterly and I reiterate, its not your fault they are like this. You did not make them that way. Abuse cuts across all classes and creeds.

What if anything do you know about MILs family background, I ask as this often provides clues.

Setting boundaries with abusive people can be an exercise doomed to failure as well. They see those as something to otherwise rail against and otherwise ignore.

Would either of you have tolerated this behaviour from a friend - no. His parents are no different.

I write this directly to Mr Echobelly:-

There are times when parents are too toxic to have in your life at all. If that’s the case, you must grieve the fantasy of ever having a loving parent, remove your expectations, and stop exposing yourself to pain. Most importantly, you need to protect your own children from an abusive parent.

Hello all. Have lurked on this thread for a long time and it was recommended when I posted about going NC with my mum under a different username earlier this year. Am sorry that there are so many of us for whom Xmas brings up painful family stuff.
My story is long and genuinely I don't think my mum was all that bad growing up. As adults however our relationship is awful and swings from low to no contact. I wanted to ask about being narcissistic..I worry it's me who is the narcissistic one and my mum the innocent one, I don't know anymore what's true or not..she says I have treated her so badly and am abusive and angry. Maybe I have been, I don't know and it's not something I can ask people about in RL. Sorry this is a total ramble..just wondered if anyone else struggled with similiar. Thanks for reading.

Offwithit one thing I would say is that narcissistic people don't really question whether they might be at fault if a relationship is difficult (they don't think they're at fault for anything) so I wouldn't think you were the narcissist, no. Also, my experience was that I got along OK with my mother for a long time and then when I had my kids, the shit hit the fan in really short order. But actually our relationship was never good, it was just that as a child I had learned how to manage my mother's moods so well that it was like second nature. Can I ask what sort of things it is you clash with your mother about?

Thanks for responding toomuchtooold, my default is to believe I'm at fault in any conflict!

Your experience really resonated as it was following the birth of my DC too that my relationship with my mother worsened. Prior to that I placed a lot of energy in keeping her happy but I then didn't have that energy as a new parent to a little one with health issues. Growing up my role in the family was to be good and keep people happy..as I grew up I became my mother's sole source of happiness which felt like a huge pressure. It's hard to pinpoint the source of the issue but one thing that stuck out was when my DC was about 6 weeks old, i had several missed calls from my aunt who lived abroad. Returning her calls she wanted to know if my mother was ok as she wasn't answering calls and seemed low..this isn't unusual. My aunt said " I thought having a grandchild would make her happy..it's what she wanted". I realised how crazy it was that a newborn was being seen as something to make a grown woman happy and was already found wanting. I don't want that for my kid. Sorry I haven't really explained myself very well but that is a snapshot of how we used to interact. We now don't..I created boundaries and showed my own anger or sadness occasionally so now am abusive and cruel. Hard to sit with at the minute when I meet so many lovely mums of friends visiting for Xmas.. I don't want to be self-pitying but it hurts to not have that relationship with my own mother..

Sorry total lack of paragraphs there!! Might make use of preview option next time

Hello, just found this thread after searching for answers about my MIL (hope it's okay to post about her amd not my parents) who I think may be a narcissist.

We haven't gotten along for a long time. At first she was very ott with me, and even now calls me "lovee" and gives these huge big hugs and puts on a fake shrill voice. She spends waaaay too much on gifts etc etc. H has a sister who I believe is an enabler. MIL is divorced over 20 years. (FIL is normal and happily remarried for 20 yrs!) Over the years there have been many fall outs from her which are all over ridiculous petty things like when we got engaged she had a tantrum that H didn't tell her he was going to propose, she cried on our wedding day because she said he didn't mention her enough in his speech, she didn't speak to us for 6 months of my pregnancy because we asked them to reschedule coming round one time after she kept pushing back the time later and later until it was so late that another friend was due round so we couldn't have both. She then said we prioritised my friends over her. SIL has been at her side cheering on her mum for all these events. EVERYTHING just has to be about MIL and nobody else's feelings matter.

We always end up pretty much not hearing from her for a few months and then we see her when necessary. Last Christmas when she fell out with us it was only the impending birth of our son (and my FIL trying to smooth things over) which made us patch up with her (we actually offered to take her out for lunch butbshe threw this back in our faces and said it was just because we did not want her in our house!?!). And now this year us trying to sort out seeing her over Christmas has resulted in her telling us she is sick of having scraps so she doesn't want to speak to us and would rather "have nothing at all" (including our ds). And that she hopes ds doesn't treat us like H has treated her when he grows up as well as a whole load of other tosh.

She's done us a favour in a lot of ways as she's been the one to cut us off but I know that's not how she will be selling it to all and sundry. I feel (and H agrees) that it's not right to throw these type of HAVE A WONDERFUL LIFE, GOODBYE comments around willy nilly and that if she does want to be in DS's life that she has some work to do. You dont just walk in and out as you please. But I know she will twist this round as she is the victim and that she "deserves" an apology for not seeing DS (to be clear, I've never said no to her seeing him but she does not message or call to ask to see him. I stopped instigating any visits out of duty last xmas when she was being a cow so we only see her when H thinks we are obliged).

SIL is still in contact with my husband (not very often mind) and has said she does not wish to discuss MIL. I'm basically wondering how to handle this with SIL and the possibility that when we see SIL at FIL's over Christmas that she will bring gifts from MIL for DS (this is very likely knowing MIL). I feel SIL is being used as a flying monkey and will be happy.to be involved if it's on her mum's behalf but if we reject the gifts then all of a sudden she will say she doesn't want to be involved or that we are being nasty and ungrateful and that mum's trying to be nice blah blah (say it don't spend it)

I have tried to make this short as I could go on forever but really just need some support as I dread every interaction with SIL and MIL. SIL lives with MIL too and they are sooo enmeshed! This is just a rant and a waffle I suppose but it's good to be here.

Thank you, Attila. You (and toomuchtooold) have so often given the clearest sanest advice to so many that it means a lot.

@JK1773, I'm just a little further along the road than you are, that's all, but please stop beating yourself up. The lifetime you've spent walking on eggshells, placating your father and trying to jolly him along? Me too. That's what I had to do to survive. Being unwittingly used by your father so he could have a go at someone else in the family? Me too. Over and over. I was so naive. And as soon as the blinkers came off, recalling all of this with painful clarity and lacerating yourself for unwittingly being part of the problem? Oh yes, me too. I was nearly doubled over in pain when I realised what I had done.

But you've taken the first step and that's important. Your father is what he is. He won't change; but you have. Now that the scales have fallen from your eyes - as they did with me - you will see things as they truly are and you can start to take control. You've asked your father not to involve you in his disagreement with your brother and he's ignored that, so you need to step it up a gear. Brook no discussion with him on the subject. If you don't yet feel strong enough to stop him in his tracks (I know how hard it is when you first start to challenge someone like that), then go silent or change the subject or, better still, just get up and leave the room. You can always make the excuse that you need the loo or are putting the kettle on, if that helps. Eventually even those tactics may stop working but by then, hopefully, you will feel strong enough to do more.

As for your father storing up all his resentment, ready to make Christmas a living hell? Oh yes, I know all about that too. My mother would practically shimmer with suppressed anger until I'd run myself ragged for her and then as soon as I had met all her demands and she had no further use for me, she would let go and unleash her inner toddler. And that's exactly how your father is behaving, like an indulged and self-absorbed toddler who has never learned to share. Once you see someone in that way, you can begin to put everything into perspective and it becomes easier to deal with. You will get there, you know, but it takes a little time.

This thread is a lifesaver as the posts resonate with my own experiences.
My biggest heartache and what is destroying me at the moment is the fact that my mother is influencing my 3 adult children I feel to turn against me. They all say they believe me but I know they’re struggling with the whole situation as their G, my mother has been in their eyes the doting G who has spoilt them in every way possible.
It’s taken me to be in my 40s to finally speak out and now I feel vilified to a degree for daring to speak out. My M has lied repeatedly to me and also to my kids in front of me resulting in me and my M having confrontations.
I’m seriously at the end of my tether.
I love my kids so much and don’t know what more I can do to help them understand and get through this unscathed.

Rainbooboo

Your MIL is more likely than not a narcissist and your SIL is one of her enablers. People like his mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them.

It is not your fault or your H's that she is the ways she is; her own parents did that. BTW what if anything do you know about her childhood?. I know a bit about my MILs childhood (basically worshipped by her own very upstanding, prissy Victorian dad in particular and thus regarded as so very precious whilst her sister was seen as a disappointment and told as much) and it did give clues as to why she is the ways she is. Such people do not change and she remains covert and secretive. My late FIL was also a narcissist but he was easier to deal with because he basically ignored everyone around him!. His childhood was also pretty much shit unsurprisingly.

All you can do is have no personal direct interaction with her or SIL at all and certainly tell them nothing, repeat nothing, about any details of what is happening in your own life.

Given how she has treated the two of you at all I would not want her in your son's life at all so she cutting you all out has saved you the job. Narcissists make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures and tend to either over value or under value the relationship between them and their grandchild. She was also not a good parent to your now H when he was growing up and such people do make out to be poor as grandparent figures too. I would also argue that she has not fundamentally altered since your H's own childhood. He needs to further work on any fear, obligation and guilt he has re her because I would think it is still very much present. He needs to work on this feeling obligated to her through therapy, she will never give him the approval that he still seeks. He is very much the adult child of a narcissist and so for that matter is his sister (the enmeshed and golden child. The golden child role is also a role not without price but she does not realise that and remains unaware).

Re this part of your comment:-

"We always end up pretty much not hearing from her for a few months and then we see her when necessary. Last Christmas when she fell out with us it was only the impending birth of our son (and my FIL trying to smooth things over) which made us patch up with her (we actually offered to take her out for lunch but she threw this back in our faces and said it was just because we did not want her in our house!?!)."

Your mistake here was to be involved with her at all; it is really NOT possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. This is something that your H in particular is going to have to accept. Why was FIL as well trying to smooth things over when he has been separated from her for at least 20 years?. His approach was also misguided here to say the very least, he never helped matters any.

You cannot apply the "normal" rules of familial interactions to people like his mother who are basically unreasonable and batshit. It does not work, they operate to their own set of mad and interchangeable rules and move the goalposts constantly.

Re SIL I would not actually go over to FILs house at all if she is there. Its no point and it won't do you any good in seeing her. Both of you need to apply firm and consistent boundaries re SIL and importantly present a united front. As for gifts these should not be accepted; after all no contact is precisely this (so MIL is breaking her own no contact rule here) and people like his mother also can and do use gifts to further obligate and control their chosen targets.

Belle I think regarding your children your best bet is to go high where your mother goes low. So that means, keep your children out of it, don't ask them to join in in disliking your mother - let them choose. They'll probably see her for what she really is soon enough (these people can seldom help themselves from showing their true selves eventually) and in any case, as they are adults, there's a limit to the damage she can do with them - it's not like with you, where you've been conditioned from an early age to be scared of her.

@SingingLily thank you. I needed to hear that today. 

@SingingLily thank you for your advice and suggestions. I need to stop feeling like a naughty child trembling inside and stand up for myself I know. I’m a 43 year old professional woman! Now the blinkers are gone I feel slightly empowered if that makes sense.

Also just to add I found out last night that he (DF) has been calling all of us now to his own brother, my DMs brother, his cousin and others. Manipulating them, it’s obvious now I see it

@JK1773, it makes perfect sense. Now try to hang on to that feeling and make it work for you! Good luck.

@TheDistantSky, I'm guessing today has been particularly difficult for you and I'm sorry if that's been the case. Chin up! Let's hope tomorrow is a better day for you.