"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

[dazedandconfused18]

@JK1773 I'm sure others will have better advice but just to say his behaviour sounds horrendous and possibly narcissistic. It is exhausting dealing with someone like this and I'm so sorry for you. Whilst it is sad he had an abusive childhood you need to be very clear that is still not acceptable to repeat that and abuse his own children. I would read up on NPD, co-dependency and FOG (fear, obilgation and guilt) to learn more about what you are dealing with and strategies for coping.

[cheesenpickles]

I'm currently grey rock with my dad, and have been over varying periods in the last 10 years. Growing up, my dad was my hero and my mum was a depressed, alcoholic who would (on occasion) physically abuse me when she was drunk. My dad would return from his business trip and "stick up" for me, but since my mum's death and his behaviour since (and what I've discovered about that time), I've actually come to understand my mum a lot better. I just feel so sad that she was so sad and while that won't ever "fix" what I experienced growing up and what I feel I was robbed of childhood-wise, I've forgiven and let go of a lot of my hate.

My dad's health is severely declining, he's housebound and in a relationship with a terrible woman who is emptying his bank accounts and playing him for a fool... or he's allowing it, neither is particularly good. But I'm starting to grow concerned that this may be his last Christmas based on what I've seen and in trying to work out if it's worth "opening up" communication again to try and make sure there's no residual guilt in the long term.

I was always the kid growing up that had the big house, nice things, fancy holidays, freedom, parents let me drink and smoke. I talk to childhood friends now and they had no clue of the life I led behind closed doors. Scares me to think how much we could be missing from those we know well.

[fc301]

SimplySteve the "all your fault" undercurrent!

OMG - I HEAR YOU, WITH GREAT BIG FESTIVE BELLS ON!

Sending best wishes to you all as Xmas approaches. Thank goodness for you all 🌲

[SingingLily]

@Needallthesleep

That is so like what my youngest sister, my lovely DSis, went through (I'm the eldest of four). She knew from a very early age that she was unloved and unwanted because my dear dear M and F told her so. Now that she has two children of her own, they tell her at every opportunity that she is a terrible mother. She's not, by the way. My DSis and DBil (himself the scapegoat child of a narcissistic mother) have somehow managed to become sociable, outward-looking, kind and generous people who do everything in their power to be good parents to their little girls. In other words, they are the complete opposite of M. And our enabling F.

And therein lies the source of M's rage with them. They refuse to follow her model of how to be a perfect mother. In fact, they take no notice of her truly ill-informed, antiquated and frankly harmful advice on how to raise their children. Thank goodness.

I'm glad SimplySteve was able to give you a helpful book recommendation as I was at a loss. My DSis, as far as I know, hasn't read a book but what she did was put a lot of miles between herself and our parents at the first opportunity and strictly limited contact between her children and their grandparents to unavoidable family events where she could keep a watchful eye on any contact between them. In this, she and DBil have the full support of myself and my DH.

I'm so sorry that you had the childhood you had, and not the warm, loving and supportive childhood you should have had and that you deserved. That's hard to come to terms with. This thread, everyone who contributes to it, does help. I now read it every day and it helps to keep me calm and focused and sane.

I'm just wondering, Needallthesleep, whether your siblings were differently parented to you or whether any of them would provide you with some support? I was the eldest of four and the neglected and overlooked one, my two middle siblings were golden children and the scapegoat was my DSis (she is 17 years younger than me; I was the one who fed her, changed her, sang to her, cuddled her, taught her the alphabet, etc). My DSis and I are our own little support group but our middle two siblings simply don't understand why we have such a negative view of our childhood years and why we choose to be so distant from M and F now.

[SimplySteve]

Two of the most hilarious things I'm blamed for at this year is that my mother missed Xmas dinner (I was born on 26th early hours), and that I wasn't a girl. Both completely my fault. Also my fault I was in hospital through the New Year with bacterial meningitis, leading to septicaemia. Oh and don't forget the anaphylactic shock following penicillin treatment. I was such a demanding baby wasn't I? ;)

[SimplySteve]

Oops. This time of year.

[SimplySteve]

Hi @pineappleplanner

I just don’t want to see her again. I do feel awful saying that though.

You might feel awful saying it right now, but I can guarantee you'll be feeling a million times better without her barbs making you feel like crap.

[Needallthesleep]

Thanks for the kind words, and advice. It’s really very much appreciated.

[SimplySteve]

I'm still off my face thanks to strong meds they discharged me with following op yesterday so apologies for my short messages.

@JK1773 This situation is completely untenable. Your father ticks so many narcissistic trait boxes I'm sorry to say. As a counsellor said to me a couple of years ago - beside every narcissist is an (often passive) enabler. Ergo, your mother could be "stroking your fathers' ego" for want of a better term.

[SimplySteve]

@Needallthesleep As you sound the quintessential scapegoat, can you identify a "golden child" sibling? Someone who can do no wrong, placed on a pedestal and showered with attention, material items and affection. It's usually just one person, but (although rare) can be multiple people (especially twins).

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

JK1773

Save your own self from your parents. I would concur with the other respondents here entirely.

I would not let your mother off the hook here because she is really his enabler. People like your dad always but always need a willing enabler to help them. They also cannot do relationships so the people in their lives are often discarded or are as actually as narcissistic as they are.

[Needallthesleep]

@SimplySteve yes definitely.

I was the reason my mum didn’t go back to work (because I was so awful). The reason they never went out as a couple.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Steve

Glad to read that you are now out of hospital and that your recovery goes well.

Will certainly raise a glass to all the fellow Stately Homers on the 25th and I hope you have a nice birthday on the 26th.

[SingingLily]

@SimplySteve

I was neglected and overlooked because I wasn't a boy and so I've been a lifelong disappointment to my mother. Do you think it's too late for you and I to swap mothers? And if nothing else, I hope that's made you smile! I add my best wishes to you for a speedy recovery

[SimplySteve]

@SingingLily Hmm, I think a far more productive idea would be to meet up and get roaring drunk. I wouldn't wish my mother on my worst enemy!

[SimplySteve]

And thanks Attila :)

[SingingLily]

@Simply Steve

[pineappleplanner]

Feeling so stressed today. My mil came round today and her car was on my drive and my dh was in our front room and luckily I wasn’t at the front of my house but my m appeared from nowhere & started waving at him saying let her in from outside our house.
He was on the phone so said he can’t deal with her, I said leave her there, I felt this was the usual controlling thing she does. She has keys to my house still so I’m glad she didn’t try to come in but I just let dh leave her outside.

She’s making it much worse tbh. I feel absolutely awful. Like a completely nasty person leaving someone outside in the cold but she’s fit and able so I am trying to look at it like it’s her choice to be there.
Looks like I’m going to have to start saving for some more counselling. This is all getting to me a lot more than I thought it would but I still feel like I’m making the right decision.

[pineappleplanner]

@SimplySteve I hope your recovery goes well.

[RingThoseChristmasBells]

I was on this thread for advice about my abusive parents in 2013 under a different user name. I have been no contact with them for five years. I've had a lot of therapy, antidepressants and read a lot of self help books. I also now realise I'm autistic. This is relevant as I have difficulty with bad feelings and understanding them.
I'm having a really hard time sorting out my feelings. My friend died last week. I knew she was ill. I haven't been able to see her because we have huge difficulty managing ds1 who has autism. We've had a terrible year. We have had no support as he falls between services and we don't see both sets of abusive parents. Sometimes I just want a mum to tell me everything will be okay.
My friend was a lovely person. She was the kind of person that brought light to every room. I'm so angry that she died and not one of my horrible parents. No one would miss them. They are truly awful people. They have damaged me and my dcs, yet my lovely friend was just so kind. She would have been a wonderful grandmother and she hasn't had the chance.
I feel really bad for wishing one of them was dead instead of her. I'm having a constant argument inside myself because of this. I think because of the autism I'm not very good at working through these feelings.
I just wonder if anyone else understands what I'm going through?

[Lizzie48]

I do understand, @RingThoseChristmasBells feelings can be so hard to process! I'm so sorry about your friend.

I remember watching my abusive F when he was seriously ill in hospital (he died nearly 21 years ago now). I was literally willing him to die at one point and this really screwed me up after he died. I didn't understand just how abusive he had been at that time and I just felt like a very bad daughter. I only understood this when I had my DDs (both adopted).

And even 20 years on I'm not free of him, he still appears in my nightmares.

My DM isn't abusive in my case, she just isn't able to behave like a mum. When the past comes up, I'm the one who has to comfort her.

I think one thing you need to remind yourself of is that feelings in themselves are not wrong. We can't help how we feel. You're rightly angry that your friend died and still have a lot of anger towards your parents. (You've done very well to stay NC!). I recommend more therapy so that you can process these feelings in a safe place. That's something I really have found helpful.

[Wrybread]

I'm having a bad day.

My ex called to tell me that my M had contacted not only him, but also his dad to try and get them to meet up with my dc.

I have said repeatedly to my M that they're welcome to see the dc, it's just that I don't want to see F unless we're somewhere public.

But she's telling everyone I won't let her see them.

My db is seeing them this week and my M has piggybacked onto that....thinking she was doing it without my knowledge. But instead I told my brother I'd pay for a family ticket for them all to go to the cinema together....which rather spoils her narrative

So my ex was remarkably reasonable about it all: I apologised and said I didn't want him stuck in the middle and explained what was going on. He's going to say to her that he wants nothing to do with it all. And he's agreed not to tell her that he talked to me, so that she can't use him as a flying monkey.

So there's that.

And then there's also this random fit who keeps coming to the house asking for food. Had been coming for months but in the autumn he started coming almost everyday. And I'd given him some vouchers for the foodbank a couple of times but he's told me he didn't bother cashing them in.

So I got a bit concerned about why he's really coming when he doesn't really need food. Did some research and he's got a violent obsessive criminal background. Told him on two different occasions (a few weeks apart) to stop coming here. And he's turned up again this evening.

Feeling vulnerable. And dh is leaving work early to collect one of the dc from their club so the other dc and I can stay safely indoors.

But after the phone call from M last week and now all this....

I've told my brother that he needs to stick close to the dc when he has them because if M says anything negative about me or if they treat the dc badly, then I will have to stop contact.

I. Hate. This.

[Wrybread]

"Random bloke"....definitely not "fit"

[JK1773]

Can i firstly take time to thank those who answered my post. I'm posting again as I have been reading more about co-dependant parents and FOG. It all fits with my DF and i am not sure what to do more.
I have had a conversation with my DM recently and broached the very edge of this subject and suggested he was controlling. She agreed and started getting upset. She says she feels bad that she has let him get away with this for years. However she says she is leaving him, she won't do it whilst my DB and his family are living there as he will get the blame. I do feel upset with her, probably not enough at the moment. I love her, she is kind and i enjoy spending time together, just us. She never puts me down or makes me feel inadequate, we have a nice time (just not often enough).
My DF is a different story and i don't know what to do. You see for years i have done all sorts with him, taken him out, cooked for him etc and he has (for a long time) seemed like we are very close. However i am realising that throughout everything we have done he belittles and criticises my DM, he criticises all members of my family tbh. It's relentless. I have once recently made a mistake of agreeing with him over one thing just to shut him up and he told that person i agreed with him (I have since apologised and explained to that person - fortunately he completely understood). I am feeling very low now that i have done all of this as an adult to gain the approval that i never had as a child. I crave him being in a good mood and happy. I try to cajole him out of bad moods and this is because i literally cannot stand him being upset and disapproving. I guess for a long time i have been 'on-side' with him because i did not realise what has been happening. When he told my family member that i agreed with him, i realised i had been completely manipulated. It was like blinkers fell off. I also see the way he is behaving to DB and also that DB seems to be able to cope with it better than me. My DB has said to me 'that's because you had the worst of it all the time when we were growing up.' I felt shocked and surprised he had noticed as he's quite a bit younger.
This year my DB made a decision my DF did not agree with. This has caused absolute uproar when really its nothing to do with DF at all. It's nothing that makes life worse, he's providing for his family. DF is not speaking to them, any of them including the DC, his GC. He is snide, moody, silent, critical etc. I'm told he sits in silence all evening refusing to engage with anyone, yet when i walked in at the weekend he started behaving normally (a show for me i now know). He's cruel.
I am rambling. I don't know what to do, how to address it with him. I think that over the past few months DM, DB, SIL and I have all finally cottoned on to how abusive he actually is. It's subtle and cruel. I have wasted years pandering to him for the approval i never had as a child and the more he has seemed to approve of me, i have felt ok. Now i just feel sick as to why i have been doing this. I suffer terrible IBS which i have now because he is behaving like this to my DB and my DM. I don't feel i can cut him out. I have tried to put a small boundary in place by asking him not to involve me in his disagreement with my DB but he still does it. I refuse to talk about it but he goes on anyway. If i ignore it he starts to get arsey with me and then i start feeling terrible again, like i have for years. I read that toxic parents make rules, judgements and inflict pain. This is so true. I feel if i cut contact i will feel better for a short time but then i will start to feel guilty and i won't be able to keep it up. And i love him and don't want to cut contact. I just want him to be 'normal' if that makes any sense. I just feel drained and down. He is going to ruin Xmas, i know he is. He's working himself up to it, he's getting more and more critical and moody about every plan we all have for Christmas, of the gifts bought for GC, of the way DM cooks dinner, the way she eats, the way GC eat, the waste. I feel like telling him to go somewhere else for Xmas but it's not really my place. I just want Xmas over to be honest. Sorry for the long rant. I don't feel i can talk to many people about this.

[fc301]

Hiya. Yes I too am very familiar with the 'divide & conquer' strategy. It's highly successful and there's only one winner. We all dance to his tune (or did).
Couple of thoughts :
You won't ever change him so tackling it is unlikely to be successful. Sorry.
Ditto ever getting him to recognise his behaviour is abusive.
Whilst it's nice to feel loved and to seek that reassurance I'm afraid with people like this it is actually hollow. I found out that in truth my F cares for only one person. He cannot or will not consider anyone else. Again sorry 💐
So it's really about coping strategies and boundaries.
In my experience there's no taming the tiger, and trying to makes him VERY angry.