"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

She refused the presents and said unless I changed back to the girl I was she does not want anything to do with me.

You are not the girl you were, and trying to make yourself that girl will put you in an early grave. Your mother is a narc. You have to take a step back and look after your own needs. The guilt is normal for people in your situation but only because the narc has conditioned you to feel it, not because you deserve to feel it.

If you're worried about her being able to do day to day tasks, call social services and they may be able to assess her and get her some care visits. Make it clear you cannot do it.

Prioritise the family who love and value you (your DH).

Sorry for the earlier ramble guys usually we always apologise even when we have done nothing wrong..I have only just told my husband about the controlling .I would have to ring her when I got any where work,gym when I had been our of an evening as she said she would worry.

Thanks Sakura7
I have only just realised about her being a Narcissist and you are so right.She is quite healthy at the moment it is just guilt .I live in next road,so feel like I can't escape.Thanks for the supportive words they are needed.I will make DH and DC priority .DH has been so kind.

It's very hard when you start to realise you have a narc parent, and it can drag up a lot of old memories, so go easy on yourself.

There are some good websites out there like Out Of The Fog and Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. I found them really helpful as I always thought I was alone and my mother was crazy in her own unique way. Actually there's a common pattern of behaviour there, and we need to understand it in order to protect ourselves from it. Remember you have not done anything wrong.

Sakura7
Thanks for the advice.I think I realised at Christmas and it was like a fog had lifted .There is a lot more crazy behaviour since Christmas that I can't even write about as it also draining .I think I am ashamed of my weak behaviour and now need to work on that. You are so right about the old memories. Glad I plucked up the courage to post as there is always wise advice here.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you so much for your post, it's really helped. Sorry for the delay in responding.

My Dad is just as bad in all honesty in other ways. He rules through fear and frankly my relationship with him has also deteriorated massively after several aggressive outbursts after having my first dc. He's a control freak and seemed to think he had some sort of control over my dc (first grandchild). I'd had a horrible birth, barely been able to see my dc as I was in surgery for hours afterwards in a pretty bad way and we were getting bombarded left right and centre, my baby then needed life saving surgery at 4 weeks and I was then being screamed at down the phone because they hadn't seen him in a few days.

I dug my heels in (for the first time ever) and ever since he's been pretty awful in all honesty. There's been many highs and lows in the last 2 years that's for sure!

My mum didn't care about seeing me on Mother's Day because she never has previously, it's only since becoming a mum myself that she suddenly expects endless gifts and affection. It's like she's so bitter, she's adamant I don't have a nice Mother's Day myself.

My birthday is on Friday and I'm dreading them turning up out of the blue. They've shown their true colours and the message is unforgivable.

I'm just hoping that time will be a healer in this instance. Thanks again for your message.

Your parents are as bad as one another. They both get what they want out of that relationship.

Not being anywhere around them will mainly help you as well as time. I would be out as much as possible on Friday if this is at all feasible. At the very least do not answer the door to them, you do not have to let these people in. If they do deign to give you a card etc would suggest you shred it and not give it any more power. There is no law to say that a person should spend time with toxic and or otherwise abusive relatives or other family members. You do not need to set yourself on fire to keep others warm.

Just needed to post tonight, after nc with my dad for over 12 months and my dB has also took my dads side . My dB must have spoken to dad today and tonight my dad sent my the most horrible message about me my dh and my dh family all not true but deeply hurtful. I'm heartbroken that he could be so vile . I've screenshot the message and sent to my dBs as they seam to think I'm unreasonable for going nc all I've done is keep a dignified silence that I just want to be left alone . I don't understand what's I've done ?
Is it possible my dad is mentally ill or just really nasty ?
My db is upset and has messaged me that he's had a go at him and not to reply . I've replied to my dad that he is despicable and to never ever contact me again . How can I not retaliate after a horrible unprovoked message ?
How do I move on from this ? It's quite clear my dad really doesn't like me or my family no idea why .
I have contact with my mum but how do I stay civil when I think how can you live with a man so vile . Yes she will be pissed off with him and have a row with him but then what ?

I will catch up properly shortly. @idontlike789, I've come to the conclusion that father is not a nice person. He can be nice if he wants something but if you don't toe his line, well... was it your brother having a go at your dad or your dad at your brother?

Sadly you can't make people see what that person is for you. I suspect your brother will make excuses for the messages because he has rose tinted glasses when it comes to your parents treatment of you.

Despite sister having made threats to withdraw the grandchildren from parents, she is still firmly enmeshed as she effectively bribes them with her children in order to have a relationship with them. I'd sooner parents saw our children because they wanted to, not because they were obliged by guilt (mother more so than father. He's a very complicated man when it comes to his grandchildren).

My twins turned 7 on Tuesday. After many months of peace and no contact, two cards arrived from sister. With a £10 voucher enclosed. She's been blocked on social media for ages and no longer has contact numbers from me. I have however dipped a toe in the water and sent a message thanking her for the vouchers and letting her know what the twins want to buy. She might be wanting to broker peace or she might be fishing for information to pass to parents (the main reason I am nc with her in particular).

Nothing from parents. Which is a relief. Best friend is still adamant that I should contact them, because her own father is so ill and she adores him. She still doesn't understand that I've never had a great relationship with father since we were 13 and mother has become a casualty of his behaviour by enabling it to continue. I won't let her apologise on his behalf. Father must want to do it himself.

I feel for all of you who have suffered at the hands of this behaviour. I've been the subject of a covert form by my DM. Types of behaviour she displays are (as above) the gossiping and 'if only they had listened to me', she struggles to empathise is unable to give thoughtful presents to the point where you think she's trying to tell you something (she probably is), she always builds you up in a conversation only to have a surreptitious dig at the end and leave on a bad note. On mother's day it was 'oh you are funny' when I was explaining about not wanting to let an unexpected guest in and when arriving at a party she got there first and informed everyone we would be late, this wasn't true. She loves to talk about me behind my back either spouting about how amazing I am and my children are, or gossiping about things I might do that could make her look bad. She moaned at me about how 'it would be nice' if we travelled over for dinner because she would be on her own and when we got there she had invited more family members (making it less necessary we be there) - the manipulation really gets to me. Anyway there are a million things I could tell you about but just wanted to say sorry to anyone on the receiving end of the covert narcissim it's awful you don't know if you're coming or going, the gaslighting is off the scale. The only thing I have found to help is to distance myself. I always have fond feelings for my mother - she is my mother and I feel it comes naturally. But I have to remind myself that she can be nice for a while but it always slips to the dark side and makes me feel so bad. Unfortunately the things she does and the way she acts do not come from a good place and that is all I can boil it down to. With narcs, the behaviours come from a sad place inside of them and you just need to do what you can to minimise how much of it reaches you.

idontlike789

The only way you can move on from this is to have no contact with any of them. Writing any response to them no matter how measured further opens a door that should otherwise remain shut and that also encourages further communication. All your family of origin have come down on the side of their abusive father and/or husband here because they do not want to be targeted as you have been. They want you to remain the scapegoat for all their inherent ills.

minimok

I would be very careful in all and any dealings with your sister going forward. Infact after this current exchange I would have nothing to do with her. Her gifts to your kids I feel were anything but; they were loaded with obligation. They were also a way into your life again and it worked because you started to talk to her again, albeit tentatively. It would not surprise me if she is just using any info you provide to pass on to your parents.

And as for your best friend, well is she the epitome of what is a "flying monkey". She will never understand and is really not at all interested in hearing your opinion here re your family. In that respect she needs to be ignored by you.

I'm feeling much better .
I've blocked his email address so if he sends any further messages I won't get them .
I re read the messages today but it didn't upset me in fact it's laughable the lies even little things like I didn't get my mum flowers on Mother's Day he knows I did , and not to mention what he had to say about my family.

I think I rambled a bit last night as I was so upset. I have 2 dbs
1 dB is fully supported and has told dad what he thinks of him .
Other dB is the dB that does not speak to me I suspect that he's victim to my dads manipulative and lying about me , gaslighting etc . This dB has not commented and I don't except him too , but I've sent him proof of his behaviour not that they needed it but they choose to ignore it or say he's not that bad sometimes.
It makes my blood boil that he can say such awful things and lie about me and my dh family but I have to for my own mental health let it go .
The difficulty is the relationship with my dm and my dBs .
My dm has text me to say she's so ashamed of him but I'm not ready to talk to her yet . I can't handle the nodding but not much to say reply's . I don't know what I want from her , I'm frustrated with her how and why does she put up with him ?

@minisoksmakehardwork

Sometimes people can't understand what's it like to have a parent that's toxic we are stronger because we decide we don't want these people in our lives it's easier to say nothing .
Your friend is unreasonable to say such things .

Hi all,

Currently 1 month solid of no contact- still in the FOG but slowly finding my way through feelings. Even questioning myself if I've been to harsh and is NC irrational. But then I remember that how I was made to feel was certainly not irrational. Anyway, I blocked NM on social media and phone and text however on the laptop I did not sign out of iMessage and a few messages popped up (FYI I have now signed out ) the first day after going no contact I tried not to read the message however the words "look little girl you are wicked" popped up followed by " I will always love you" and basically mocking the idea that someone would feel abused in the way that a lot of narc abuse is played out (ie not physical ) I let that be. Rambling now but anyway today I went on my laptop and a portion of message popped up that my grandmother is sick which came from NM .... again I have not actually opened any of the messages this was just the preview that I saw and I have now signed out so that doesn't happen again. I'm just wondering if this is an attempt for her to get supply by saying this even if it is true? I haven't heard anything from other family members to suggest that anything in my grandmothers health has changed....

Lastly, I stumbled upon a forum on gransnet called "the brainwashing behind going no contact" and it is a truly awful forum bashing all those (including myself) that have gone no contact and calling narcissism and all the lingo a new craze which has obviously left me questioning myself even more. Obvs post is written by a person who has been cut off by No contact. It goes on to say that this is a cult and a psychotic act in itself for anyone that could know their mother or (whoever the narc was) was ill and could just leave them and carry on with their life. I certainly just want peace which can not be achieved with contact something I'm sure anyone who would say such awful things would never understand. Anyhow I just needed to express it because I'm vulnerable at this time in my journey of NC and certainly don't want to be the NARC by being NC if you get me.

@Ashparo12
I understand you just want peace with no drama. They just want to be the centre of attention that you are a terrible person because you have gone nc they can't and won't understand that they have done anything wrong.
My dad has called me and my family terrible things that are unforgivable. I've blocked his number and on social media . I've also blocked his email too now of course if he can change his email but I've not told him not am I going to so hopefully he'll be non the wiser .

one of my parents took their life recently and I am left with the toxic parent. everyone is rallying around as it has been hugely traumatic for them, became very ill etc. I am too angry with them and want to go NC and was heading that way before this happened (am very scared that this is part of why it happened actually). how to deal with the guilt of going NC in circumstances like this? we had a typically enmeshed relationship so it is hard to detach and especially now, without feeling selfish, ashamed, like I'm running away from the whole thing. I feel very alone, no partner, own family etc, and scared if I go NC i will feel even more alone, sad and still angry.

Hi hellish. I'm sorry for your loss

God, what a hard situation you are in. You're having to deal with your bereavement along with a toxic parent, and I would imagine there's (at least implied) pressure there from the wider family to stay by your toxic parent and do your job of managing their emotions?

I don't know what the right thing is for you to do. I do think that sometimes at times of crisis like this you see things more clearly for a time, before the FOG sets back in. I think if you do go NC with your mother, be prepared that you will have a lot of feelings about that, including a lot of guilt - but it's toxic guilt, so if you do feel like that don't necessarily take it as something you have to act on - you don't actually have anything to feel guilty about in going NC. I mean it's going to be a time of big emotions either way, grief's hard, even for people who had great, straightforward childhoods.

Would you be able to get some counselling? Is there anything in the way of support for family of people who have committed suicide? Or speak to your GP? You need support. But you need it from people who actually want to help you. Don't think that if you go NC you will be alone forever, you won't. Things are going to be hard for now but you will come out of this.

Jeez, I came on here to talk, then I read the last page or two and wonder what I have to moan about. Especially hellish1. I don't know how you should deal with this, but counselling seems a plan. Just so you don't feel so alone. And talking on here.
My moan pales into insignificance by comparison. My Dad and my narc sisters mostly. Yesterday, Dad was supposed to come round to mine-its 'our' day, but my really nasty sister is visiting from England (and staying with my twin sister), so my Dad (who I do all his finances, support him etc) takes my sisters out to lunch and was having so much fun he didnt make it round to mine.
See, told you it was petty. My sisters have form for 'monopolising' Dad and my Dad is easily led. Our birthday he spends all day with my twin as she wants him to stay. He never bloody takes me out for lunch! Not that I expect him to, but I feel a bit shitty. Which is exactly what they wanted.
They win again. I feel like shit and Dad is just a pawn.
Utter horrible people. These are the sisters who helped create an online witch hunt/lies against me, encouraging and trying to push people into beating me up and trying to push me into suicide/meltdown. (this didnt work and no keyboard warriors have had the balls to even speak to me).
They told awful lies about me, I had to get the police involved. And now the younger one is back, visiting the twin. Makes me feel sick with nerves. I can feel depression coming back. Dad is innocent but I'm angry with him for the first time.
Fuckin fuck families and my nasty, bitter sisters. Just fuck them. Why does everything have to be so stupid?

For full disclosure, I went NC with both of them due to their shitty treatment of my son-they were beginning to treat him as crap as they have always treated me. I went NC, they were furious and now hate me. For no logical reason.

Sorry for rambling, I have to go out this afternoon and my anxiety is driving me to panic 'what if I see them'? Well, if I do see them nothing will happen as they're both keyboard warriors but no balls.

sorry

whothefuck don't minimise how it feels. Its horrible to be hanged up on by the people who are supposed to love you. Its horrible when people who should know better go along with things that are just wrong. I hope your upsurge of nerves and anxiety settles soon. You are allowed to protest and disengage from people who are nasty to you. And it truly sounds like they've been deeply nasty.

Is it OK if I come here and vent? My issues are nowhere as severe as so many others on here.

My sisters are a bit like yours WhoTheFuckDoesThis and I was happily no contact for about 4 years. I've no idea if my sisters are narcissists, but they are definitely cunts.

Last year, one of them made overtures to meet up, so she could see my dcs and I could see a dn who is a similar age to my youngest (not hers). The texts I received were all very emotional and gushy. However, I thought it would be nice for them to have a relationship, so thought I could handle a few hours. My DH did warn me that this may not be a good idea.

All went OK, it was all very superficial and I thought I could deal with that. We did something similar over Xmas, again OK. Then about 3 weeks ago I got a text referring to our 'falling out'. Apparently, she has no idea why we fell out, but she is sorry I was upset and would now like to put the past behind us. This fucking non-apology has given me the rage. I have not responded, but I have been stewing on it. I can forward her some of the emails full of hate and abuse that she sent to me. I can relate all kinds of stories over the course of my life. From when I was a young child I was written off as selfish and greedy and lazy. They still all believe this to be true. They don't like me, but seem to think I should put up with being their whipping boy.

Then one day, it occurred to me, that actually, I didn't have to put up with these people and so went NC. And I have been much happier for it - I've certainly had less drama! I wonder if that's why she got in contact in the first place? She was trying to create a bit of drama?

Who knows. But she can fuck off now. I will not respond.

I'm not sure if this makes any sense, but thank you for letting me ramble!

Sounds like you've done the right thing 💐

Your right @Whocansay probably does want the drama .
My dad called me a attention seeker amongst other things . But like my dh said attention seekers don't decide to go nc after all the nasty abuse and just simply keep quiet.
It's so difficult to not retaliate to the lies and the nasty comments but like others have said block and nc . I'm hoping in time it will give me peace .
I sit and think although I really shouldn't why people decide to be like this especially to the ones they are supposed to love . I suppose because they are so unhappy they can't bear to see you happy .
Sending hugs to those on this thread and especially those who are having a bad day/week .

Thanks, and apologies for swearing. I feel like I'm coasting along, all quiet and drama free and then up pops my twisted bitter sisters to dig the knife in again. And my Dad just goes along with it. my mum doesnt, they hate her too-again for no logical reason.
She doesnt respond to their emotional blackmail. my dad does and jumps thru their hoops.

@Whocansay I can relate to your post-my sisters love the drama. Going NC was such a relief! so peaceful!
Think I'd be raging with your non-apology too-tho at least you got the word sorry! But sometimes its not enough. some things you cannot forgive. Going back to being their whipping boy is not an option.
I've got messages full of hate too-ones posted on social media also. fuck that.
I get so frustrated at always having to keep quiet, be the better person, ignore the emotional blackmail. Its just so draining. I've never responded-except with the police-because I know any response is like nectar to these happiness-suckers.
Plus, I would never deliberately set out to cause harm to them. Its just not me, I wouldn't hurt anyone on purpose.
I guess thats the fundamental difference between my sisters and I.
Its also my weakness in their eyes, so they attack. Because their own lives must be so miserable.
Its not just me, they attack anyone who doesnt agree with them, or live up to their hypoctrical standards.

Dad is round again today, I have no idea what to say to him. Or if I even want to see him. Any advice?