"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Dearestdarling

re your comment:-
"@attiliathemeerkat

Just to add, he watched her recently explode at me calling me selfish and ungrateful and a brat because I said I felt hurt by her criticism. He refused to go against her. It is possible he spoke to her privately. But he didn't protect me from it and never did. Is it silly to hope he could change?"

What a horrible man he is. for you. No it is not silly to hope he will change but I will state now that he will not. He still gets what he wants out of that relationship with his wife.

Women like your mother always need a willing enabler to help them.
No he did not speak to her privately. He is her enabler, hatchet man and secondary abuser. He did not protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviour and has acted here partly out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He facilitates her abuse of the children, who worships completely at her altar and expects the children to do so too. Or perhaps he does not worship as much as fears her; but the result is the same: he is her sidekick, making sure that she is kept happy no matter the cost to his children. His need to feel that he has chosen a good wife is more important that protecting his own children.

Whatever the reason they have given up, an Enabling Father will rationalise away his wife’s behaviour. He’ll tell the children things like, “She loves you in her own way.” Or, “Don’t mind her, it’s just her way.” Or, “Don’t annoy your mother, you know what she’s like.” Or the classic: “Be the bigger person”.

All of these translate as: “I don’t want to rock the boat here so you need to suck it up”.

This dynamic, of course, means that Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers, and sons of course, are living in a no-win situation. They have no champion, nobody to protect them.

What do you do about children asking questions? I have a son (although biologically speaking he is my nephew), he is almost four and he has only been here with me 27 months, which really isn’t a very long time.

I don’t see my family, apart from rare and very short visits from my Dad, I also see a cousin about once a month. So family wise we are very isolated.

My son has started asking questions (I’m guessing mothers day activities at nursery may be playing apart of this). He calls me Daddy, but we do talk about how his Mummy is my sister and I have some pictures of her in his bedroom.

He is very curious as to why he has to live with me, and I don’t know the best way to handle this? I want to answer his questions as best I can without lying or being age innapropriate. I have previously said Mummy couldn’t look after him (she has a drug problem and an abusive partner). He has older siblings who are in foster care, I know it’s awful but I don’t talk about them, I know their names and ages, but that’s it, so I have avoided it as I don’t have the information to give him. He hasn’t seen his siblings or birth parents since he was 13 months old.

Social services haven’t been particularly useful.

Does your Dad or Cousin know more details of your Son's siblings? I think all you can do is carry on doing what you have been doing and be as honest as you can whilst keeping things suitable for his age. I'm surprised Social Services can't give you a bit more information tbh. Can you start mentioning his siblings when he asks about family and tell him in the same way he lives with you because his mummy wasn't able to care for him, his siblings live with other families for the same reason. Then he would know about them and know he can ask you questions whenever he wants and you'll be able to tell him what you know.

My Dad is your classic enabler, and since my Mum died last year I've tried so hard to forgive him. I recently started counselling and gave basic details of how I have been treated by my parents over the years, and she flat out called my Dad a coward and secondary abuser. It was an immediate weight off to hear somebody tell me it wasn't my fault, and I wasn't going mad, but now I feel like I can't bare to be around my Dad and sisters, the scales of guilt have fallen from my eyes in one respect, because of that clarification, but now there's another guilt replacing it for feeling such contempt towards them and not wanting to continue making any effort in the hope for any scraps of affection or compassion from them. It's so, so hard!
One situation that sticks out for me, which was the first time I realised he wasn't ever going to be on my side, was almost 16 years ago when DH and I had our first DD. We were only 18, and had been staying with my parents so we could save to get our own place. My mother was taking over with DD to the point where I felt like she wasn't my child, and any visitors that popped in, she was the one to be showing her off, literally snatching her out of my arms to do so. DH and I spoke to my Dad one day about it, and he was really kind and agreed she was going too far and he would speak to her. So she returns home and we sit down to begin the discussion, she starts to get hysterical, she's only trying to help and she can't help it if she's proud blah blah blah, so I look to my Dad who just sits there, so I try to prompt him to gently tell her that he's in agreement. At this point she's frantic and telling us we should pack up our stuff and leave if we don't appreciate her input, DD was a month old at this point. I look to my Dad in desperation, and he says to me that he can't have me upsetting my mother like this and he agrees it's best we should go! So we had to then pack up everything we had, and we were on the streets as far as they knew, as it was we managed to get emergency accommodation. To this day I still have no idea why I've gone back to them with countless olive branches, but here I am, still burdened with all the guilt and them with no clue what it is that I find so awful about them!

They don’t, my cousin has never met them, SS have been really poor about passing on information, I don’t even know if they are in the same placement, I have been asking my social worker and my sons social worker, but I never get anywhere which is really frustrating.

@SimonJT

Picture books might be helpful

@Sodthis4agameofsoldiers
Hoping this gives you the link you need.

Not sure if this is the newest thread but this is a bit of an SOS because I feel like I'm going crazy. Just one little example in a 1000, but my mother took my DD to the GP yesterday as I suspected another bout of tonsillitis and wanted to check not bacterial. By way of background, my mother has my DD when I'm at work part-time - this is her choice, it's paid and she's raged at me and called me cruel and selfish when I've tried to introduce some paid childcare.

According to my mother, GP says DD has swollen tonsils but not bacterial, but he then prescribes ten days' antibiotics. I'm confused by this as I know from past trips that GPs will not prescribe antibiotics for viral tonsillitis. (I'm particularly surprised because, only the night before, my mother was telling me that DD had been fine all day and that there was obviously nothing wrong with her, it was all in my head because I'm pre-menstrual.)

This morning, my mother sends me a text saying that if I have concerns about the antibiotics, I should query it. I think about it a bit and call the surgery to arrange a callback from the GP who gave the prescription, so I can double-check the basis on which he prescribed antibiotics (I make it clear that I'm not questioning his clinical judgment, just wanting to check he hadn't, for instance, meant it to be a delayed prescription). Receptionist agrees that they don't prescribe antibiotics for viruses so worth clarifying with the GP.

When I text my mother to say, simply, that I spoke to the receptionist and am waiting for a callback, I get a text from her raging at me because I've supposedly made her look bad in front of the GP surgery and I've made it look as though I don't trust her to relay what the GP said correctly. I point out that I did exactly what she said I should do and now she is guilt tripping me for doing that. She rages at me some more about how upset she is that I don't trust her judgment, and that "the bottom line is" that I should trust her not to give DD a dose of antibiotics if they're not needed. I reply saying again that she told me to query the prescription if I was worried, and that's all I did. Then she comes back trying to pretend that that wasn't what she said, she just said that I should make a routine GP appointment if I want to ask about why DD is prone to swollen tonsils. I quote her own text back to her which says what I've said above, in so many words. I think I'm getting the silent treatment now.

Part of me feels relieved because I think I just caught her trying to gaslight me in writing, for once. The rest of me just feels empty.

Please help.

PS I'm pretty sure she manufactured a row because she doesn't want to be asked if she can take DD to the GP another time. I wouldn't ask if I could help it, but I'm a single parent and couldn't take that particular day off work, so it was ask her as a favour or leave it until my next day off. But now if I need emergency help with something like that again, she'll have a strop and refuse to help me because I don't "respect" her.

NC

Your mother has never respected you either as a person or a mother.
You need to find alternative childcare for your Dd as of now as your mother fundamentally cannot be trusted at all here. Is there not a registered childminder you can use locally?.

You would not have tolerated this from a friend and your mother is no different. She is the cruel and selfish one here and you have every right to seek paid childcare. I would not frankly trust your mother to look after a goldfish let alone your most precious resource here i.e your DD.

She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she is not a good grandmother figure to your DD now. If you find her too toxic/difficult/ too batshit to deal with bear in mind its the same deal for your DD as well. Toxic people more often than not make out for being toxic as grandparents as well. Her silent treatment towards you now is a further example of emotional abuse.

And I also think she manufactured that row; her actions are all about power and control and she wants absolute over both you and your DD.

Do read "Toxic Parents" by Susanb Forward as a starting point and work on you more in terms of raising your boundaries and dealing with your FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) re your mother. Its not your fault your mother is like this and you did not make her that way,

Thank you, Attila. I know you're right but I don't trust my own judgement anymore - I've had nearly forty years of this and I'm so confused, I'm not even sure if 2+2=4 some days.

The GP called back and said that it was meant to be a "wait and see" prescription, not to be given straight away, but to continue the course as she's already taking it because discontinuing would be a bad idea. I'm happy to believe that the GP might have forgotten to mention the "delayed" part (although I'd definitely have got clarification on when to start the course if I'd been there). But the fact is that I was right to check, because there HAD been crossed wires.

But if I'm right, why do I feel so bad?

Why you feel so bad is probably due to FOG (fear, obligation and guilt).

I would still find alternative childcare regardless and further reduce all levels of contact with your mother because she is not an emotionally healthy person to be at all around. She giving you spaghetti head is also par for the course when having anything to do with such disordered of thinking people.

You're right. I'm such a coward though, and I'm scared of her "flying monkeys" (my father, who has been divorced from her from a decade but is now Flying Money, No.1, for some reason, and her current partner, who is a bastard who repeatedly tried it on with me and even sent me explicit emails, which I never showed my mother because I knew she'd stay with him and I'd be out in the cold).

Flying monkeys need to be ignored, not feared.

I hope you have now completely blocked her flying monkeys from being able to contact you via any means. These two are certainly not interested in hearing your side of things and are acting purely in their own self interest.

I'm afraid my father has an uncomfortable amount of access to my life. A while back, I needed a new cleaner and my mother arranged with my father behind my back for him to do it for me. She did "run it past" me, but she picked a moment when I was very upset and distracted (DD was ill, I was stressed about returning to work after maternity leave) and she presented it as a favour to my father because he had just retired and lacked a purpose, so I caved in because I didn't want to be the bad guy. I almost immediately realised I'd been stupid and tried to make excuses to hire a professional cleaner instead, but my mother guilted me out of it because she said it would make her look bad if I change my mind. It honestly makes me feel physically sick to think of my father in my house going through my things - he was often an unkind, critical father when I was a child, and I grew up constantly being told I was clumsy and messy, so I hate him having access to more ammunition to think of me as a fuck-up. He always comes round to clean when just my mother is there and this also gives them opportunities to gang up on me, e.g. recently my father brought DD a new bed without asking me because my mother disapproves of DD co-sleeping (it's not every night and she has her own toddler bed, but buying an appealing new bed and new duvet was part of their scheme to get DD into her own bed all the time, without my consent or involvement).

I know I've got no backbone - if I were on AIBU, I know this would be the point when I'd be told to get a grip. I feel ashamed to be such a coward when so many of you on this thread have been so brave and determined. I'll start with the reading you suggested, though - thank you.

Hi everyone,

I found this thread a while ago and have thought about posting on it. I just want to write this down - I’m thinking maybe I need to go for some counseling but I’m unsure it will help?

I have a daughter of my own now (9 months old). And it’s brought back a lot of memories - things my parents did that I would never think was okay. I also don’t know how I can be a good mother if I don’t have a good mother as a role model!

So basically, I don’t have a great relationship with my Mum( she is oblivious to this and probably thinks she is a great parent though). She is very selfish. Our Dad walked out when we were young and started a new family- we had an evil stepmother basically and my half sisters had everything. My Mum had various partners but her long term partner was rude to us, treated us badly and we had to live with a step sibling who stole from us. We had locks on our doors as kids.

Growing up I never felt comfortable in my own home. It was never a safe place and there was always people coming and going. My Mums partner critiqued everything we did.

My Mum didn’t take any interest in my wedding, only her own make up! When I went to Uni they basically dropped me off and didn’t speak to me for 3 years. No emotional or financial support. She once called me a selfish bitch to my face- I’ll never ever forget that. After I’d spent the weekend with her and bought her dinner.

She will always say how smart my brother is, but I know would never say the same about me.

More recently she finally left the horrible man she was with. And when she was single we spent some time together again but now there’s someone else she never bothers with us.

My daughter had colic and she did nothing to help. She’d come over and I’d have to make her lunch. She doesn’t ask about her or anything.

There’s so much more but I’d been here all day explaining the problems i had during my childhood. My Dad also doesn’t bother with me and lives abroad but has excepted before that he hasn’t done enough.

Basically I’m scared of being a bad mother and I know what not to do- but have no positive role model and that terrifies me. How do I move past it?

Hi Rainbows! I'm sorry, I don't have any suggestions - I have the same worries about being a bad mum because I don't have a model for good mothering. But I wanted to say how sorry I am about your mother. I felt so bad for my SIL because her own mother behaved in a similar way on her wedding day - e.g. bumping her own daughter, the bride, out of the hair-and-make-up chair because she wanted her own make-up touched up for the third time, then having a noisy tantrum seconds before the bride walked down the aisle because she hadn't had time to get her make-up down a fourth time. Such incredibly toxic behaviour.

Rainbows

I would suggest you find a therapist to work with and one at that who has no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. BACP may be helpful to you; interview such people carefully and at length before deciding on a particular one. You need to find someone who fits in with your approach.

I really would not bother with any of the people you write of now; they are all selfish beyond measure and have let you down abjectly here to say the very least. Do read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward as a starting point here. You have survived these people and you do not need their approval nor any of them in your life now. They were not good to you when you were growing up and they are certainly not of any use or ornament now. I would certainly also keep them well away from your child.

NC

This is not AIBU however and no-one here is going to tell you to get a grip. It is hard indeed to overcome being so conditioned when you have been subjected to it all your life. Both your mother and father really do need far less access to your life to the point of zero; they need you far more than you actually need them. This is your life and your child they are controlling here.

Is it possible to get the locks changed on your residence particularly in the likely event you feel unable or unwilling to ask for keys to be returned?.

Hi everyone, glad I've seen this thread.

Did anyone's abusive parent continue abuse into adulthood?

And for those who have gone NC, has/have your parent/s tried to find you or harass you?

NC, don't beat yourself up. As Attila says, you've been conditioned all of your life and it's never easy to challenge that. We've all been there. We all grapple with it. However, challenge it you must - for the sake of your DD. If you can break the cycle now (and that means anxiety and upset and worry, I know) then you will be doing the single most important thing you can do as a mother - protecting your daughter.

Your mother makes decisions about your life without consulting you and so now is the time to make a few decisions of your own. If you can afford it, find that childminder and change those locks - without consulting your parents. They'll scream and shout when they find out but you are just going to have to grit your teeth and stand firm. Don't explain. Don't justify. Just do it. They'll sulk too, but let's be honest, none of that will be new to you.

The first battle is always the hardest but it does get easier - and just remember why you are doing it. Good luck.

Hi I am posting in here for traffic instead of posting my own topic, I am hoping for some advice/insight. I have read toxic parents and although I I do not think my parents necessarily were permanently toxic or physically abusive I did have some issues with them. My dad had episodes of depression but instead of getting it properly treated my mum asked him not to be admitted to hospital or take medication in brackets or so I’m told as I was very young when this happened, however, I do remember being about five years old stood by the front door Watching my dad leave and him telling me that he might not be coming home and I am not sure why but it was clear to me even at this stage that he meant suicide not leaving my mum and us in another way. My mum was the main earner. Anyway I now have three kids of my own and I see my parents on a weekly basis. Growing up my mum could be quite kind to me but at times if I wanted to do something that she didn’t want me to do she would often use emotional blackmail such as I am waiting for you to go to university so I can leave your father to get me to do things . My issue now is that she makes me feel uncomfortable in her presence often like I am being judged is this normal? Sometimes even a compliment she gives me does not feel to me like a compliment I do not know why it is just a feeling. My issue is do I continue to have them in my life when I feel like my mum especially is a bit of a negative presence in my life but not necessarily toxic?

I am sorry if my post is a bit rambled but I have a bit of an irritable baby with me who needs feeding so I’ve had to stop and start the post a bit so might of lost my way with it