"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Ashparo12
It's really hard. NC. Guilt. Hope, shitty messages.

I have realised recently that there are only 2 people in the world who think I am to blame. Every contact with them reinforces this belief but it is only their belief.
NC no blame.

Thank you all for your responses, I won't say much but it has greatly helped me through this weekend. You all have no idea how much of a support this group is for an only child (now adult) of a narc parent.

I have also been watching loads on YouTube and came across a lady Petra Van Deijl on there, her page is awesome for getting through the abuse of a NARC parent.

Have a good week all.

Sorry just one more thing

Can anyone suggest how you address outsiders concerns while NC without doing as a narcissist would and create a smear campaign.

For example if someone asks have I heard from said person, how are they or (if they know me personally and they question) why aren't you speaking to said person. How do I go about replying respectfully without trying to sound like I'm tarnishing them.

Tell them you don't want to talk about it. You don't owe them an explanation for your decisions.

Hope you don’t mind if I join! Been fully NC with Narc M, Abusive F and their enabling partners. I’d been gaslighted for years and now only just realising how bad it all was now I have my own child.

They subjected me to awful neglect and abuse as a child. My ‘mother’ would often lock me in my room for not eating the horrible food she would always make. I became anorexic and now struggle with health problems and eating disorders because of it. She would also withhold food as punishments for meanal things I did wrong. I was actually in my eyes a fantastic child and a ‘goody two shoes’ high achiever at school. I had a cheap secondhand bed that broke while she had a luxury king size. I slept on a mattress on the floor for most of my life but she always managed to afford cigs, wine and new clothes. I always had to wear shoes that were falling apart and was regularly teased for ill fitting, dirty clothes. However, my mother was always dressed to the nines with lots of make up and heels. My coat would always stink of nicotine (she smoked in the kitchen where they were hung) and I got bullied for it. She once had a screaming match with my father when I was aged 9 and it upset me so badly I cried for 2 days straight. I projectile vomited in class and was sent home. I now realise that I should have told a teacher and I should have been taken into care at that point. The worst was when I was 13 and took a serious overdose of beta blockers in a suicide attempt (her meds). Social services became involved because she just screamed at me as I cried in the hospital so the staff reported her straight away. I wish I had been taken from her and maybe I would be in a happier place today. She likes to delude herself that I was a spoilt brat and she gave me everything. That is the image she gives to outsiders. Sorry if it’s long! There’s more but it would take up a lot of space on the thread

I'm so sorry berrybubbles. No doubt some would say your mother had Mh issues but I'm sorry that is rubbish. There's no excuse for what she did to you. She made that choice. Just as I make choices to try harder to be a better mother than mine was but tbh the minute my child had a place to call home, food and shoes and clothes that fit I was doing better. The hard bit comes from not crying in front of them when I'm struggling with stuff.

Hi, I'm new here.

I just wanted to ask you all please, if any of you still love or like your parents and if so how you deal with the conflicting emotions that can bring when you realise they were actually weren't brilliant.
It's something I struggle with a lot. I feel terribly guilty thinking badly of them too as I know they did try and they had lots of issues themselves so I understand why some things happened although those things still affected me.
How do you deal with everything that happened without putting all of it on them which can maybe end up with you hating them?
I think mine do feel bad about the past.

I think if they regret things and are able to take on board your natural feelings about it then there is hope for you.

For me. No. No acknowledgement. No contrition. No I don't like them or love them.

I hope it can be better for you.

Hi
Wonder if anyone can advise with experience?
Father has always been volotile an without boring you with a whole life story very toxic at times.
Just recently he threatened to ruin another family games night... again... but my partner of 3 years had had enough of his behaviour and this time put him in his place.father walked out on the evening.

He sent me a text a day later apologising but full of “ buts” like my partner shouldn’t have said this to him etc etc

Since then for 2 weeks I’ve had the silent treatment, I decided to text today to see how he was an I stated “ your quiet?”after ranting about having a hospital trip for routine check , he texted “ thought the same of you, nothing much to say”!!!
So it’s clear he’s still sulking... so I just typed ok.
I’m really upset/angry/mad, for once in his and my lifetime, someone had the balls to stand up to him to prevent him ruining a time... but now we re being cast out!! I suspect he’s waiting for me to do what I’ve always done and bow down, let him rant an rave and make him right.But I’ve had enough, had enough that he’s got to a comfortable place in life which he wanted and he’s just miserable/angry and toxic.
Anyone been in same boat of the silent treatment, or have advice on the way forward? Tia x

I would ignore any 'sorry but'. That's no apology.
Your DP was right to tackle him but it will make things worse. He will ignore you indefinitely if you don't bow down. It's very hurtful because you want him to show care for you.
I'm afraid confronting his behaviour in future will have the same negative result.
Sorry 💐
All you can do is keep your distance. Consider what your boundaries are and what you will accept. Reward good behaviour and punish bad by withdrawing.

Thanks for your reply @fc
It’s catch 22 isn’t it, I’m not in wrong so shouldn’t need to bow down, yet if we don’t we’re ignored

Thecrown3, what you've described is just the sort of thing my mother does. When she is the centre of attention, all is sweetness and light. When she isn't (or when she perceives the faintest trace of "disloyalty" or "disrespect" in the wrong word or look or tone of voice), she indulges her inner toddler and has a tantrum. And just like an overwrought toddler, she cannot be reasoned with, so I only ever had two options: placate or ignore.

I'm guessing that for a long time, you chose to placate (as I did) and so walking on eggshells became the norm. Doesn't it make you tired, though, always having to be the grown-up in the relationship? Always having to manage your own parent's moods? It's no wonder your partner decided enough was enough and put a stop to it - and all credit to them for doing so.

I think you know what you need to do now. Your partner did the sensible thing and deserves your support. Your father will either come out of his sulk in his own time, or he won't, but either way, a much-needed boundary was drawn. In your shoes, I'd sit and wait and see whether your father has learned anything from what happened. If he has, great. If he hasn't, then you and your partner need to be in complete agreement about what you, as a team, will accept and will not accept in terms of your father's behaviour and involvement in your lives.

Sorry for the upset this is so obviously causing you. It's so hard.

@singinglilly that’s exactly it with my father, down to a T with them perceiving a wrong being done against them or a tone!!
It is upsetting and tiring , but it’s nice to know someone else has had the same an I’m not alone or mad!!

Whilst I completely sympathise sadly you are neither alone nor mad! Welcome to the club ☹️

Such a shame.
I’ve read pages of the threads and it’s so sad There’s elements of the pages in my father every time , I’m only starting to regonise it now

I'm so sorry, Thecrown3. It's a terrible shock to the system, a seismic event, and it causes you to question almost everything you knew, or thought you knew, about your life and your family relationships. But just as fc301 says, you are not alone - please remember this in the days ahead. This thread has been a lifesaver for me and there's always someone around to listen.

I've posted on here before name change though.
I'm nc with my dad for over 12 months . We have gone a few months not speaking a few times but as time has gone on I've only reluctantly stated speaking to him for my mums sake and my dc . Anyway the last time I reluctantly started speaking to him ( even though he fell out with me for no reason) he was fine if we all together after that ignoring me being rude etc so clearly not ok with me . So last year after refusing to come to his dgc birthday party for no reason then sent me abusive text I made the decision to go nc I'd had enough. I've told my mum I want a apology and to tell me what I've supposed to have done. My dad reluctantly sent a message a few months ago no apology just I don't want it to be like his mum who died . My mum will sit on the fence in all this will say he's sorry and he admits he's wrong but when I say why doesn't he say that she can't answer . My dad has very much controlled my mum over the years he's very very moody . My mum admits they ( her and my brother who lives with them ) basically walking on eggshells . I think because I stand up to him that's why he is like this with me .
My relationship with my 2 brothers is strained. I've attempted many times to make contact to invite to family occasions but they always decline .
Last month when it was my birthday I arranged a family meal . My mum asked if I'd invite my brothers I said no because they won't come . My dm insisted they will come so I said ok . Both declined, db1 said had work commitments. DB2 wanted to know who was coming and to invite dad I said he wasn't welcome. DB2 did not comment further nor decline the invite in fact he didn't even wish me happy birthday.
My issue is every day I struggle what I've supposed to have done and why are my siblings like this with me ?
I'm only speculating but when I was growing up my dad would take the piss out of the family my gran, aunties etc and encouraged us . He would refuse to see relatives for various reasons So my dbs never see any relatives ( I still make contact with my relatives) . I'm thinking that's what's happened here he's taking the piss out of me dh and dh family and now they don't want to see us . Dh family are amazing by the way they are lovely normal unlike mine .
I think it makes me very sad the situation, I think about it every day and nothing I can do . I have a very selfish and self obsessed family .
Thank you for reading this made me feel a little better, I don't talk to anyone I know as I don't want to bore anyone and I feel they must think I've done something but I really haven't not that I know of anyway .

I’ve known it all my life, we re different.mother walked out when 7, left us with him, he’s been bitter and twisted his whole life- but now, I dunno why now, I’ve had enough, somethings shifted inside me an I realise he was really shit.he would say he done the best he could, but his best wasn’t even a quarter nor normal behaviour.
I’ve been through divorce and wouldn’t dream of treating my children to the things he done(the behaviour) maybe it was generational , but what’s made me realise that it’s probably not, is he still behaves this way now.hes no calmer/patient etc now he’s older.
He’s deeply unhappy with wife of 27 years since day 1- and he’s dumped all his unhappiness about mum and stepmum on us since I was 7...... I guess I’m tired of negativity...... I’m sorry I’m just rambling now.

I am going to say something here, but I'm not sure if it's really that bad tbh, but it will be nice to get it out in the open. FWIW, I still spend a lot of time with my parents and on the whole, they're fine and really it is only these things BUT I feel like they're not really the way parents should speak to their child. In comparison it's nothing but still.
So my mum is really slim. She always has been and weighs under 7.5 stone and used to be a size 6. She always says how fat she is now shes an 8. I was a naturally slim child/teen/young adult but have pcos and put weight on. I'm still in the healthy weight range for my height, but I am at the top of it and about 2/3 stone heavier than I used to be.
My parents are always saying how big I am. My mum always tells me I need to lose weight cos I'm quite porky, but we go there for dinner once or twice a week and if she offers chocolates or cakes and I refuse, she insists on me having one and says it won't hurt. My dad tells her no, and that I'm trying to lose weight and I need to lose it.
It probably stems from her upbringing, as my grandad will also call me fat (I'm a size 14, just for some context here). Every week she tells me how I need to lose some weight and will feel better, then insists I eat the food shes prepared or, if I say no, starts talking about how she wishes she had never bothered and asks what is wrong with it. She knows full well I'm trying to slim down. I just dont understand why she behaves like this. It's really upsetting. She says things like "well, I suppose you're not that fat, but you could lose some off that stomach couldn't you" and if I say "actually, I'm not fat at all I'm in a healthy weight range" will just reply "really?!" In a tone of disbelief.

The second thing is she told me the whole time growing up how awful I was. What a monster child I was. How mean I was to my siblings. Encouraged my grandparents to agree. I distinctly remember my grandmother saying "you were so horrible growing up but you are very lovely now". Which I guess was meant to make me feel better? I dont remember my grandmother ever being purposefully rude, just my parents, particularly my mother, and her father.
This has been a bit of a word vomit, sorry. I just haven't actually ever voiced this before and I feel like maybe I'm just being over sensitive, but it's the sort of thing that's affected me for a while ("horrible child" while I was growing up and "fat" since I was in my 20s...now late 30s). I think if I really thought about it, I could say a few things about my mother but actually, she's ok now I'm an adult. Is that common?

Hi everyone

Haven't been on here for a while but need somewhere to share my feelings. On Saturday I stupidly let my mum look after my son who's 12 and she let us down again. She had a silly argument with him about what to do that day and instead of listening to what he wanted she insisted on doing what she wanted. Then she left in a huff and I was still away in another city. It doesn't sound like very much but she texted me some horrible things about him and spoiled my time away. My son doesn't seem that upset by it as he is used to her being a drama queen and overbearing. There is obviously a huge backstory to this involving her mistreatment of me as a child. She has been diagnosed autistic which explains why she gets so inflexible about plans but I feel there is more to it. She flies off the handle at the slightest thing and is not easy to be around. Now she is turning it all around onto me saying I hate her and poor her and no one else finds her difficult (definitely not true!!)
I just feel terrible for trusting her again and angry that she moved near me 'to help me' but instead is making my life harder. She moved here for her own reasons to help herself.

Scabby

I wrote this to you in May 2017:-
"Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the person to changing circumstances.

Her autism diagnosis as well does not give her a free pass anyway to hit your child. You would not have tolerated that from a friend, your mother is no different. Protect your child and yourself from such a toxic influence".

Why are you still putting yourselves in her path at all; this is repeated behaviour from your mother who is not worthy of the term. That is a question you truly need to ask yourself now. You certainly need a reliable and emotionally safe sitter; your mother is clearly no such person.

Are you still in the FOG and or hoping that she is somehow truly sorry here for how she has treated you (you were yourself abused by her as a child) and your son?. I would like to know as well who determined she is at all on any ASD spectrum. Its certainly not a hall pass to keep on abusing you and in turn your son who has also been previously hit on the head by this person. When are you going to decide that you actually matter more.

orange

Your mother (who herself has lifelong issues re weight mainly because of her own fathers attitude) continues to try and diminish you by still carping on about your weight. These two people in particular have done you an awful lot of emotional harm. Its not your fault they are like this, their own families did that to them.

You are not being over sensitive in writing about this now; your parents have both failed you utterly as parents here. Where are your own boundaries with regards to them; I would certainly now seriously consider lowering all forms of contact along with ceasing to eat meals with them. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not fundamentally changed since your own childhood.

How do your siblings get along with your parents these days?. I doubt very much you were a monster child at all when you were growing up; you were a child then too. Its their perceptions that are flawed here and your grandmother all too easily believed what her daughter and her husband were telling her, she was well and truly manipulated.

(BTW I have PCOS also. Have found Veritys website on this subject to be helpful and Collette Harris has written some good recipe books).

@AttilaTheMeerkat
You are of course right about all that. I was hoping she might have changed and I guess I just really wanted to visit my brother. I have no time to myself as my sons dad was very physically abusive and so we don't see him. My mother has given me the message growing up that my perceptions are all wrong and abuse is ok. I have had to relearn a lot of very basic stuff. For example at the moment she is twisting everything round onto my son saying he hates her and treats her badly and that he learnt this from me.
I ha e decided to tell her that we won't be going on holiday with her this year. Last year she was very difficult, on the plane she declared that she had cancer and then it turned out she didn't. She behaved very strangely the whole holiday, chain smoking, bursting into our room, storming off and the list goes on.

Scabby, such disordered people do not change. You're going to have to let any such hope (and it is a triumph of hope over your own experiences here) go completely. She will never be the kind mother you perhaps still so want her to be.

Your mother is toxic personified and its not your fault she is as disordered of thinking as she is. She in all likelihood has some form of untreated, and untreatable, personality disorder. You would not I daresay have tolerated any of this from a friend, your mother is no different.

Tell her about the holiday via e-mail then block her completely from your lives. She brings nothing at all positive into your life or that of your son's. Draw a line in the sand. No-one sadly thought it necessary to protect you from your mother's abuse and you have suffered greatly at her hands. You have a son now and he comes first now along with you; generations in your family of origin have already been affected by abuse not least of all your and your son deserves a better legacy.

Urgent help and advice needed please - been going no-contact with a very abusive 'mother' since January this year (the story is a few pages back). Other than a couple of emails she sent tell ing me she was cutting me off a couple of days after the shit hit the fan, not heard from her since.
Going on holiday tomorrow, she knows about the holiday as I was still speaking to her when I booked it. An hour ago I heard something pushed through the letterbox. I went and checked and she'd put two cards containing spending money for my kids in it. I never seen her at the door, but I went upstairs and looked out the other side of my house where my drive/garage is, and she'd parked around the corner and I watched her reverse down the road until she was level with my house, staring in. She seen me and FLOORED it out of the road.
I haven't told the kids about the cards/money. I don 't want the money. I want nothing to do with her. What do I do? If i accept it and give it to the kids, I feel like its lmost like accepting a bribe. I'm terrified that she's biding her timr until after my holida y, and then she's going to start playing up. I'm scared she's going to go the legal route and try and demand access to my kids. I cant send her the money back as I have no idea where she lives. I have no other family to give it to.
It's liek she's done this on purpose to taint my holiday, to put her imprint on it. I feel like crying. It's our first family holiday. If someone could give me advuce I'd be grateful