"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Annabel

Would respectfully suggest you stop going there altogether. You only have to give your own self permission to do this and forcing yourself to go is beyond the pale too. You would not have tolerated this from a friend either, both your parents here are no different.

You do not have to go for your dear dad's sake; he like many such men in these types of scenario is infact his wife's willing enabler and hatchet man. He has failed to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviours over the years and has thrown you under the bus for his own self preservation and want of a quiet life. I would be bloody angry at him too.

Re your comment:-
"DD says she's not bothered about the favouritism but I know that she is. Luckily pil are amazing to DD, especially Mil".

Glad to read that the other set of grandparents here are nice; concentrate your efforts further on them. You do not have to see your parents at all, let alone force your own self to spend time with them. Your child notices all too well the favouritism shown towards these other children and in her own way is trying to make you feel better. Work on your own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) re your parents through counselling.

Just dropping in to say, that DM has been at it with the food again. This time presenting DB with expensive Shop bought brownies that she removed from the packaging and put in a Tupperware box, attempting to pass them off as her own creations! Thankfully DB isn't that stupid and realised that she'd had them from a shop.

Im realsing more and more that my DM is quite a weak and needy woman who needs constant approval, praise and attention. She presents herself as tough, bolshy and no nonsense, but it's just so far from the truth. I don't think she any sense of self, and lives so vicariously through DB and I that she clings to us and does everything in her power to keep us close by. I realise now that she's been subtly manipulating us for years, DB has a talent and wanted to move away to a city to study it at a prestigious college. She talked him out of it. I always so badly wanted to travel, and was at one point looking at taking a job abroad. She talked me out of it. God forbid we should move away and become independent beings separate from her!

Thank you for replying to my post
AttilaThemeercat
You are right I know. This was my first visit since Christmas and I left after ten minutes fuming. I know what you mean about my ddad he was a very quiet shy man and was bullied by my domineering mum. He did stand up for me a few times and I had lots of stealth support from him but he could have done much more. It's obvious my mum wanted him all to herself, she's very stunted emotionally. He was my only parent and I wonder what the hell I would've turned out like without the good stuff that he did do.
DD is 18 and just avoids my mum. She's the only grand daughter on that side of the family. My mum has always favoured boys especially her golden child's sons.
We do lots with DH's parents, my Mil is the amazing mum I never had.

Hi all, just discovered this thread... I hope that I can find somewhere to fit in here. Struggled with my parental relationship for years, and now at 34 have just sent them a letter explaining what the issues are and saying that if they can’t get counselling with me to address them, and cut down on their drinking, that’s it for us.

I’m scared to death. My mum is your classic martyr/narcissist - everything is a reflection on her and she’s deflected criticism for years by bursting into hysterics and calling herself a terrible mother. I tried to kill myself at 17, which she later found out about, and her response was to have a hysteria, blame herself, then never speak about it again. To this day I don’t know if my dad knows about it.

My dad is alcohol-dependant like her, and checked out years ago. Had a terrible temper when I was young but avoids any kind of emotional discussion and just sits and stares at my mum when she’s having a hysteria. Totally passive.

I know that what I’ve done today i’m sending the letter will bring a world of pain down on me, but it felt right and I just can’t go on like this. But I’m plagued with doubt - maybe I imagined things? Maybe they tried their best and I expected too much? What if my memory is lying to me? It’s so hard. :(

Hi dreamalittle,

No, you did not imagine things, they did not try let alone try their best here and your memory is not playing tricks on you. Alcoholics are some of the most selfish people on the planet and you certainly lucked out when it came to your parents, particularly your so called mother who is anything but. Its not your fault this happened and its not your fault either they are this disordered, you did not make them that way.

Do NOT ever enter into any joint counselling sessions with your parents. It will go very badly (a total understatement) for you and joint counselling with abusive people is never recommended. You are not safe enough emotionally to do any form of joint counselling with them and they will not co-operate with the process.

If you want counselling I would suggest you contact BACP and work through all this on your own with a therapist who has no familial bias about keeping families together.

I think your parents will see that letter as an attack on them; such toxic people spoil for a fight and they will use your letter to attack you verbally. Telling these two to cut back on their drinking is actually about as effective as peeing in the ocean, you were wasting your time suggesting that measure. They are not worth any of your time or efforts.

Your parents were not good parents at all to you when you were growing up and they have not fundamentally changed. Your mother is still a drunk and a malignant narcissist and your dad is her willing enabler and fellow alcoholic. I would not bother with either of them going forward now. Heal your own self and seek therapy for your own self. Contacting Al-anon would be good for you as well as they are very helpful to people affected by other's drinking.

Just dropping in to ask if anyone else's mother (or father even) has these weird hysterical screechy flashes of rage when they temporarily lose control a situation? My DMs been doing this all my life, most recently yesterday. We were sitting in her conservatory and her dog began barking like mad, I could see a man standing outside. Turns out it was a neighbour and he'd been knocking the door I tell her this and she gets all angry and stroppy because she hasn't heard him (neither had I to be fair) so she goes to answer the door and tells me to grab the dogs collar as he darts upstairs. But he was too quick and darted, this produced this hysteria mentioned above. The screechy voice ranting 'how hard can it be to grab a dog and stop him running up the stairs' it was such a ludicrous over reaction to something so minor Ive never seen anything like it in my life. I just said he was too fast and walked away. She then kept going on and on saying that she hadn't heard the door (so? Does it matter' why go on about it?).

Years ago I would have been upset or angry by this, but I just think WTF? I once stood up to her when we were in the car together and he ran phone rang and instead of waiting until she'd pulled up she demanded that I answer it. I dropped it on the floor and this also produced the rage mentioned above. I then chucked the phone at her (I know that was wrong) and told her not to speak to me like that again. She immediately apologised but went on about it over and over again for the rest of the day and then told all and sundry that I'd thrown her phone at her, without the context of why I'd done it obviously. I presume this was to punish me in some way or other?

Mine, ManonBlackbeak, mine. The eyes snap, she has red spots of anger in her cheeks, the right hand starts slapping the arm of the chair with increasing urgency and her voice goes deep and strange. It's like seeing something out of The Exorcist. It happens when she is confronted with something that challenges her on some basic level, something that she cannot control or cannot deny or in which she is found wanting. When it happens, there is no reasoning with her and no way to stop the tide. No doubt a psychiatrist or psychologist would be able to identify it but (and I'm no expert), I see it as a physical manifestation of a primal rage that she is unable to express in words because her emotions (and vocabulary) are still stuck at toddler stage.

Transferring blame onto you for some imagined transgression is exactly what my mother does too. It's how she minimises her own appalling behaviour - by exaggerating something I did or said and accusing me of a motive or intention that I didn't have or didn't exhibit. Classic, isn't it?

Yes, SingingLily it's like something from the Exorcist! It's not even a shouting voice, it's like a high pitched shrieky wail. And it's always so out of proportion to what's just happened.

I'm not even sure what's 'wrong' with my DM? Ive always said that she has undiagnosed mental health issues relating to her childhood which wasn't great. Her need to control everyone and everything around her is relentless, and Ive no doubt that the recent deterioration in her behaviour is because she's losing control of me, DB and DF to some extent.

Hi all,

Thanks Atilla for the response... I wanted to give them a chance but now I'm rethinking it. Initially the response (fed entirely through my dad) was good, really open and honest. Agreed to counselling. Now my mum (through my dad) is kicking up a fuss about being available to attend because of a social club she goes to twice a week (we live quite far apart but they're retired and comfortably wealthy). I didn't even know what to say, to be honest. What can you even say? So disheartened.

Morning everyone

Just checking in as if i ring my husband i will burst into tears and i have to deal with customers in a little while and need to be calmer!

Just had my dad pick up my son and i (he looks after my son and gives me a lift to work as its on his way) he said he is picking up my brother who lives with my nc mother, and i said will she be there and my said no shes on nights shouldnt be back till 9. I asked if he was sure as i dont want her seeing my son (maybe over the top response but thats how i feel).

My dad reassured me that even if she is home she wont come near the car. Then went on to say its a shame i dont let her see him.

And basically a conversation where i said she made her choice its her fault and my dad saying she doesnt think it is ringing him up giving him grief about it saying shes done nothing etc. And him saying he cant imagine being cut off from us and how hard she finds it (while also saying its my decision and shes mentally ill)

Now i know that this shouldnt upset me but i am unwell, have a horrible day coming up at work have not slept properly in days and when i do i dream about her. I doubt my decision most days even though i know i have done the right thing and mostly am happier for it.

I just didnt need the extra guilt, doubting and over thinking my decision today.

Sorry for ranting (i ended up crying anyway!)

Awww. Sending you. Rise above it. You are doing the right thing. She is wrong and needs to take responsibility for her own actions. Stay strong op.

I am not at all surprised this upset you.

Your dad was wrong on so many levels here to say what he did to you re your mother. He is really being used here by her as a flying monkey and just as concerningly is really showing you now that he too cannot be at all relied upon either. His concern seemed to be mainly for him in that your mother is phoning him up and giving him verbal over this matter. He chooses to listen to her. He is really not all that interested in hearing your side of things at all, all this too about "its a shame that you do not let her see him (your son)". I would have ripped his comments to shreds.

Her response to him by the way is typical of toxic parents. Do not ever doubt your decision here; that was also made after I would think a long period of soul searching. Such decisions too are never made lightly or on a whim.

dreamalittlebiggerdarling

Your mother and her associated mouthpiece enabler here are patently not interested in counselling and already the excuses have started.

Do not ever do any form of counselling with these two because it will be an utter waste of time and you anyway are not safe to do counselling with these two. Also joint counselling is never recommended where there is abuse within the relationship, no decent counsellor would ever want to see you all in the same room together.

You have physical distance here and now you need to put proper mental distance between you and they also. Look too at your boundaries. You will have to let go of all and any hope here that your parents will suddenly become at all nice and give you their approval. Please consider therapy for your own self as per my initial reply to you. It will be of far more benefit to you in the long run. It is not your fault they are like this and you did not make them this way.

Manon and Singing Lily

What you describe here seems to me to be narcissistic rage; it really is a frightful sight to behold. I think that narcissists are generally adults with an emotional age of around 6 or so. Being with them at all is akin to hell on earth and the only people who at all bother with them are the ones who have received special training i.e. the adult children of such parents.

Awww thank you @unicornsandponies

@AttilaTheMeerkat thats the thing my dad hates her! She has made his life miserable in so many ways! And he does understand why i did what i did. I just think he is thinking about it from a grandparents perspective. And i dont think he expected it to actually last.
There is a tiny part of me that wonders if he would go behind my back but i am ignoring it as he has done nothing to break my trust and i love him so much he is my both parents to me. ( he just comes out with stupid comments and pisses me off!)
It was not an easy decision to make snd your right a lot of soul searching did and does go into it. I just wish it got easier!

Anyone else dreading mothers day?

Oh dear! I hadn't thought of Mother's Day! Yes I see it as a day of guilt.
My whole head is a never ending guilt trip because I'm not happy about my childhood and it causes me MH problems.
This angers my DM so I've learnt to keep quiet or she snaps with anger that I'm ungrateful and making her feel bad.
I have pretty much stopped contact and she had done the same. Overall I am so much happier and not questioning my sanity as much but the guilt just screws you up as well. The constant guilt of not contacting and basically not being there. Siblings like to make odd jibes at me too as they aren't treated the same. I'm definitely the black sheep or scapegoat one. I'm happy being that - I think it's the easiest role. I just wish I could banish the guilt. Every once in a while I cave and message asking how everybody is etc... this eases my guilt for a few days.
One day I'll be stronger and able to tolerate things.

Ditto dreading Mothers Day. Feel I should send a card (FOG) but don't really want to at all, not feeling as I do at the moment.
So hard to find a card that doesn't talk about ' best Mum in the world ' or 'to my wonderful mother'. Trying to find a card that says to my rude, argumentative, controlling, self - centred mother....strangely doesn't seem to exist.

You do not have to send her a card Unicorn, you still have a choice here. Give your own self permission not to send one!. Buck the trend. I have never sent my mother a mother's day card either because she does not like mothers day anyway. If she did though, I still would not want to send her a card.

And sod with feeling guilty as well springhappy; do you think your mother and siblings feel guilty?. Not a bit of it. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and yours here seems to be the family scapegoat for all their inherent ills. You do not mention your dad in this post; is he still with your mother?.

You may want to look at the Out of the Fog website.

munchkin

He was only thinking of his own self interest from a grandparent perspective when he said what he did. This is what flying monkeys do. He was easily influenced and it was both selfish and a poor error of judgment on his part to utter such in the first place. You may love him but its really ok not to like him as much now. BTW has he apologised for these comments made at you?. I would not let him off the hook here entirely, some men can really be weak in such circumstances and also act as bystanders. I sincerely hope he never hurts you like this again because if he does I would have no compunction in cutting him off as well. Do you at heart trust him?

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for the link - I will have a read.
No my Dad is well out of the picture and has been for the past 30 years. I am more than happy about this as he is a lovely gentle person who was also heavily controlled and seemed to suffer from what I remember. I have no contact now but thats a choice on my behalf as we have very little relationship to build on.
My DM has a partner but he is very much like a puppet who does what he is told and seems to think and act that way too. I have no time for any of their nonsense as I have my own family who I need to look after and protect.

@springhappy guilt drives you crazy doesnt it? Its a horrible feeling i think!

@unicornsandponies i used to be like that, hated buying the gushing "your the best mother" cards as i felt it was a lie and she wasnt. Always took me ages finding a nice simple one!

I said to the hubby i didnt want to celebrate it as it seems pointless to me, i know i am fairly good mother and my son and husband love and appreciate me, i dont need a forced day (plus it was mothers day last year it all kicked off). He told me we are doing something as i need to remember my achievements as a mother (bless him).

@AttilaTheMeerkat i agree there are times he makes comments and i think was there a need to tell me?
He is under alot of pressure and stress (mostly from her refusing to divorce him!) so normally i just ignore him. He just really hit home this time. I did tell him straight away hed upset me and he
apologised, he just needs to think!
He used to protect me so much from her when they were together its only
as i got older i realised how bad she was.
I think he is human he makes mistakes and is so worn down he has not fight left (his partner doesnt understand/believe anyone can be that horrible) im lucky my husband saw through her as she took a great dislike to him so he supported me.

Without his strength and becoming a mother myself i wouldnt have been able to go nc.

Sorry that was long! But yes to answer your question Attila i do trust him completely.

Hi munchkin

re your comments in quote marks that I have separated out:-

"@AttilaTheMeerkat i agree there are times he makes comments and i think was there a need to tell me?"

He could have chosen a better time. I do think that he was making this about him and his feelings (I make reference to the grandparent comment he made to you) rather than actually seeing your side of things. That is why I would not let him entirely off the hook here, he was influenced by your mother and became her flying monkey by saying such to you.

"He is under alot of pressure and stress (mostly from her refusing to divorce him!) so normally i just ignore him. He just really hit home this time. I did tell him straight away hed upset me and he
apologised, he just needs to think!"

So are many people re having pressure and stress; its a reason not an excuse. He could seek legal advice and divorce her and you are right to ignore him. He certainly needs to do a lot more thinking here and if he cannot say anything that is not emotionally loaded then he should not be saying anything at all.

"He used to protect me so much from her when they were together its only as i got older i realised how bad she was".

But did he though do a good enough job re protecting you; no he did not ultimately. He should have got himself and you well away from her when you were younger. He chose to stay with her for his own reasons and got what he wanted from that relationship; he was weak here. You got thrown under the bus by her and to an extent him too. He needs to own this properly and take responsibility for his past actions here and poor choices.

"I think he is human he makes mistakes and is so worn down he has not fight left (his partner doesnt understand/believe anyone can be that horrible) im lucky my husband saw through her as she took a great dislike to him so he supported me".

We are all human and we all make mistakes. I would ignore his partner; she likely comes from an emotionally healthy family unit where people do not act like your mother. You are fortunate indeed to have an understanding H here; he knows what your mother is like. Would you have tolerated such comments from a friend, no you would not have done. It is not okay at all for your dad to have ever stated such to you.

"Without his strength and becoming a mother myself i wouldnt have been able to go nc"

It is often only the case that when adult children of toxic parents become parents themselves do they begin to realise the extent to which they were and still are abused and otherwise mistreated by their parents. Your mother was certainly not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not fundamentally changed.

You are just fine as a mother and your H is a good man.

Sod feeling guilty as well re your mother. Its a truly useless emotion.

Thanks Atilla and Munchkin. Appreciate your comments about Mothers Day and guilt attached to sending cards. I'm considering not a sending one at all this year for the first time.

I get the excusing your Dad Mumma. I feel the same way about my aunt. She was the scapegoat all her life and though I now recognise her to be a flying monkey I cannot hold it against her. She is a true victim of my horrible family. She’s soft and timid and just wants what’s best for everyone. She might think it’s best for me to talk to my M but that’s because of her faith and upbringing not because she wants me to be hurt or because she doesn’t love me. It’s a tough one.

I do feel she could have been stronger over the years and protected me from my M (though she never knew the full story behind our closed doors) but I know she did her best. I will never be angry with her. I’ve had to say a couple of times in the last few weeks “we don’t need to talk about it” (referring to M) and she’s accepted it and changed the subject. I think she believes deep down nobody should be treat as M as treated me but she can’t bear the hurt my mother is pretending to feel. My M can and does manipulate her constantly. It’s a sad story really.

I’ve been NC for a month now. Saw my psychiatrist, who I only see to review medication, on Monday and discussed going back to talking therapy. He agreed it might be the right time. I’ve always walked away when the subject of M came up. I’m ready now to confront it.

I only thought of Mother’s Day a few days ago when I saw an ad on Facebook. I dread it. It will feel like another nail in the NC coffin and though I know I’ve made the right decision it still hurts like f**k!

I haven’t been able to get back to reading Toxic Parents due to other things going on but I’ll get back to it soon.

Hope you all have a lovely weekend